Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

RPM is the killer here....i may be wrong but if the intake rule had been enforced then the need for such crazy head flow would ouf been lesser..
wonder what the cars would be running if we went back to real crossrams...and would it affect the rpms that seem to be the norm now??? david???charlie???....need a rule like farm boy pullin tractors have???rpm telltale ...limit to 8800

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

That would depend on how short you could get the runners in relation to the plenum and if there would be any deficiencies in the air/fuel mix due to the cross ram configuration. The rpm their running probably has much more to do with the valvetrain innovation than anything else I think. Between Charlie and David, they have gotten the valvetrain much better in recent years.



On another note, is Super Stock another world where your only going fast if your cheating(knowingly breaking/stretching rules)?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

The biggest problem with this rule right now is the way it is written. It leaves way too much room for interpretation! With the creativity and $ in AH right now, it may start initially as a 1 inch manifold spacer, but how long until the spacer is 3 inches with the inner had studs being utilized and it actually serves as the rocker stand! The only thing stopping it is the combustion chamber and its just a matter of time before it becomes a section of that. That will make cc'ing a Hemi head in tear down fun!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I remember seeing this done by Richard Maskin with his pro stock Rambler (hornet) before the 500 inch rule came into play. It transformed the port from useless to a player. This was brilliant ( i thought ) at that time

AH Hemi heads don't need this technology to go fast.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Our old crossram motors would peak around 7900 rpm, shift around 8300, and run around 8900 through the stripe. I'm sure they could've been made better, but I doubt very seriously that configuration would go 10000 rpm.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I remember a sign in the trailer of a fast race hemi car it said.

"There are only 2 kinds of racers!
Cheaters and Losers"

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Bringing back the crossram might solve the controversies of SS/AH.
What do you think?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Stephen, nice story. You lost me in a few places but I get the gist of it. The only problem is your facts are distorted.

#1 - Your dates are mixed up. It wasn't the year the Westcott's left. It was 2009. How do I know that? Because I raced Westcott Sr in the final and I'll never forget how the car died when I floored it. It was also the last time I saw Paul Wilson, who really made a big deal about this whole hood scoop thing. Which I was completely fine with because it was bringing some excitement into the pits. I believe Bales was pretty fired up about it as well.

#2 - The other big hole in your story is the fact about the hood scoop. The whole idea behind the different hood was to see how narrow we could make the scoop, not how tall. The whole idea was to grab less air. Going taller is the opposite of what we were trying to accomplish. You really think I'd be dumb enough to try going taller? That was tried way before you came along. I'd have to say the craziest one I ever saw was the one Sid Bonnecarre had on Teuton's Dart. I'm sure it was more to prove a point.

Last I checked there was no rule stating how narrow the hood could be. Since I've been racing I've seen NHRA measure those hoods every way possible but they fail to put in writing just how big or small they should be.

Anyway, somebody noticed mine looked different. After 3rd round Bruce asked me what the big hype was about the hood. I told him ours was narrowed a little bit. I asked him how narrow it was supposed to be and he had no answer. He then asked if I had another hood. I told him yes. He then asked if I can replace it to get everyone off his back. Out of respect I said no problem. I figured if everyone was so fired up about it, I better not win the race with it. And by that point I felt it was no gain anyway.

Can't we just be friends, Stephen? I don't like when we fight like this.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

This all reminds me of the 70's pro stock twist/tweak of the heads and rules of the week. Then again in 90's with PST. If it still had OEM part numbers then it must be legal. LOL

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Of course we are friends and the bolts (screws) in my head have me mixed up on things for sure. Shoot man, I am OLD. I guess this means you guys are RSVP for the KKFC $10k deal?? Finally get all this out in the public.

PS Just edit my story for year and hood width vs height. I apologize for being incorrect. Stephen

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

can anyone on this thread actually identify who "two scoop lido" actually is? lightweight (daryl)on the original hemi dart thread in the nostalgia s/s forum is researching him.

on another note , it amazes me on the hemi crap going on in this thread, i honestly think as long as these cars are being raced the bitching whining and complaining is never going to stop !!!!! it has been going on as long as i can remember. anytime someone gets an advantage someone bitches and its only amongst the hemi owners !!!!!!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I for one love this stuff. It just goes to show how passionate these guys are to be the best that they can be. If you are not looking for an advantage to get ahead of your competition, you might as well stay home. It reminds me of the early 70's ProStock racing. Dollar for dollar, if I had a choice to watch the current ProStock racing or the HEMI shoot out at Indy, handsdown I would watch the shoot out every time. How many stock and super stock racers do you see going to the lanes to see ProStock racing versus the HEMI's running? Run what you brung, lets see a 7 this year :)

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Change is Coming. Some will like it, some won't, but it will be different.. 2 or 3 weeks maybe.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Sir you are right on! Look at the number of views on this thread. Must be my story tellin'. I never ever had a race car and drove around for a year watching these guys. "I want one of those since I'm not the brightest bulb". Since then in elims I am: 0 for 2 with Daniels; 0 for 1 with Two Scoop; 0 for 2 with Sr.; and 0 for 1 with Jr. And I get DQ'ed for rule infractions most of the time. That's a lot of 0's. Maybe soon a pig will fly. Thanks for your support. Stephen

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I'm with you, Fred. Someone else mentioned the early 70s Pro Stock controversy over cylinder heads, and I loved that part too. It's too bad that the associations and people in charge think it is the right thing to do to make it so there is no controversy. It's called "leveling the playing - field". It's like what has happened in our country - "all men are created equal" has been transformed into "everybody should pay their fair share". NASCAR is a good example. What used to be a rich arena of manufacturers' competition has been so homogenized so that the excitement fans look for is fights between drivers and crashes. It's the controversies that mix the people and the machines that make racing exciting for the fans. The Gasser Wars, factory Super Stocks, Pro Stocks, the early Funny Cars - those were exciting. Of course, we have such an entitlement mentality that prevades our society now that lawsuits become the threat to make things fair, not the battle in the arena.

I applaude you AH guys. I just hope that for once in the history of this great sport that leadership, honor, wisdom and character leads this era and restores some of that part of the glory that created it. For all involved, please don't turn it into a cat fight; the honor is in the battle, not just in who wins.

MHO, and worth about a nickel.

Dwight Southerland

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

There is a place for run whatcha brung it's called pro stock....if that's what ya want go there...I'm sure it wouldn't cost much more

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David
Your comment about no rule stating how narrow the scoop can be may be true but there is a rule that keeps you from narrowing the scoop. Under your train of thought there also is no rule in the rulebook saying how wide a Dart is or how tall the windshield is but I think we all know they have to be stock. It has been in the rule book since the early 70's at least. Under SuperStock/body section in the rulebook it says "Alterations or customizing prohibited,". Since the hood is part of the body, and the scoop is part of the hood it cant be altered. No saying this rule has not been abused by many in the past and today, just pointing out the rule as written. The rule used to not allow altering the body for class advantage but that was really a hard one to prove so it was changed to prohibited.
I remember a Div ll car with the Shaker scoop in SS/DA or EA making the shaker so it came up when the hood was raised. It was no allowed. It was bodyworked to the hood and may have been a touch talled when finished. Looked pretty cool.
No dog in the fight, just an old X NHRA tech guy who still reads the rulebook.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Stewart I got a letter of repremand for having louvers in my front fenders. The had inner fenderwells so there was no advantage. But they made me change them.
The only fiberglass fenders made for a neon had the louvers. So I had to get metal ones. That were 3 pounds (each) lighter than the fiberglass ones.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Art, everyone knows the louvers were for feeding air to the hidden ProCharger!!! :)

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

But they never measured my hood scoop. Also know as front mounted parachute. LOL
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...SCAN0005-1.jpg

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

You know, I've seen this kind of nonsense go on for years and it's not limited to racers. Over the years it seems that one thing remains the same.... "the whiners and the crybabies (for the most part) who cry the loudest have the most to lose". Case in point: When I first moved from SS to Comp I had an A/SM Olds Calais. The rear spoiler was an oem factory piece that was bolted (in the factory location) and bondoed to the deck lid. It was clearly for aesthetic purposes. There was no real benefit. At Maple Grove another SM Comp racer started whining and complaining about it. NHRA Tech told me to remove it so I did.... on the spot. Then I went to the semi's, ran it out the back against Larry Kopp, went .60 + under and hit the index. That's when the real whining started. Later at Topeka, I hit the index again. At that point, a mindless few even threatened me. Lesson: Be careful what you complain about. The end result may be far more unpleasant.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Even though I love both classes tremendously, I disagree for one reason and one reason only. In the hemi shootout, you can count on one finger who is likely going to be in the finals if both cars get traction. When there is 5-6 tenths between #1 and #16, its a bad situation. I really wish it was more competitive than it currently is. I love this class but its definitely sad when you can pick the winner every race with pretty good certainty, well most times. The early rounds with cars that are near each other in ET makes for good racing but as soon as they meet the titans, gameover if both get traction. Thats the only downside from a fan perspective.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Art
The old Ebody we sold to Bagwell went thru many front fenders. As a 70 it had no louvers but as a 71 it had to have them so we cut holes in and stuck the louvers in. No good once it was realized they were not recessed like factory so new 71 fenders went on. The following is from a magazine article. Mopar Action 12/12. Won't write the hole thing but Earwood says after bombing the SS/EA record they moved the car to a 70 for SS/DA. With the expensive paint job Bagwell had they didn't want to change fenders so Terry had large "1973 National Super Stock Champion" decals made and put over the holes. World Finals Earwood was protested and Marty Barrett asked terry if he pushed a pencil on the decals would it go thru. Terry said yes and Marty asked " you know whose mistake this was?" to which Terry responded "mine". Marty said "It's my mistake-not yours-because I didn't catch it." Marty let him finish the race. Always liked Marty.
Sorry kind of off topic but just shows how tight tech was.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I understand and sympathise with what you are saying,but if the rules went back to crossrams and not getting near the vc bolt holes,the creme will still rise to the top. I've sat and watched the Westcotts test many times. I doubt anyone will outthink Jr,and I KNOW no one will outwork him.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I am not sure if NHRA is looking at fixing the rule if not they will be seeing some funny things over the next little while and I do not think the engine builders are looking for this.Can they not make it you cannot cut into the vc bolt hole at the vc suffarce like 90% thought it was all along and carry on racing.The longer this is not fixed the deeper it gets and may never fix it. Wendell

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Glad to see we can still be friends. Does this mean I qualify for the $10k? I'm trying to figure out which car to bring. Those 10 rockets make it tempting to bring the AH car.

[ame="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_KEXSKFzhEw"]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_KEXSKFzhEw[/ame]

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Two scoop, you missed your calling, Cabinet member of current Presidential administration. Head of Transportation or some other BS. Barton-ism to the 27th power. How did you sleep on the night of Sept. 4, 2009. Dave Rayborn from Ca. ELIMINATED, Randall Warford ELIMINATED, John Rains Ca. ELIMINATED, but since scoop width not in rules as per you??? (See X-techman post). You had to change hoods after those boys lost. I went back and checked NTM database(you don't have that), not only were you narrow, you were too tall all the way back to clear the back carb. You knew it, that's why you were the only guy there with TWO hoods. Then you had to change it and guess what, Sr. hands your stuff back "in a sock" with someones borrowed backup motor. BOG, HELLO! No back carb clearance. This is a generation deal. PLEASE read the Mr. Dwight Southerland's post on page 10. Memorize it. He doesn't know it yet but he is running for President and I am his manager. I will test you on it when you come to collect at BRose.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Okay, Charlie it your turn to put up your winter progress vid, then Mr. Hess, you can put your video up following that.

Looks good Mr. Barton! Hopefully there is a decent turnout in Belle Rose. Me and dad will be in attendance.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

[QUOTE=David Barton;371565]Glad to see we can still be friends. Does this mean I qualify for the $10k? I'm trying to figure out which car to bring. Those 10 rockets make it tempting to bring the AH car.

BRING IT!

Two Scoop, you will NOT pass the KKFC teardown with the head shown +/- 17 seconds in the video. Just stop the movie and enlarge the frame. Where are these 10 VC bolt holes you brag about 15 pages and 30,000 views ago? In the trailer or the trash. If that's a NHRA SS/AH head, you are CHEATING BIG TIME. My goodness, how can you sleep at night, bogus, crooked NHRA etc etc. These are all your words, not mine. Of course, since we see it on the internet, it must be true and "I am a French Model" BONJOUR!!!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Stephen, would you like the body templets for your shoot out.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Absolutely!!! My golfing buddies are all State Troopers and I am bringing them as well. I may need protection.. Screwhead Steve

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I didn't have to change the hood, I decided to. And I'm aware of the rule X Techman speaks of. The problem is, I can't get a straight answer as to how an original hood should look, in NHRA's eyes. What is so hard about giving a measurement and a tolerance? NHRA already has every measurement possible.

Stephen, check your NTM database and tell us whether or not CW had valve cover bolt holes missing along with the external mods to the cylinder heads. Can you measure his cam height too, from space, while you're at it?

BTW, I'm not a big fan of the new rule change, but we are trying to run a business and we have lots of cars to prep for 2013. We finally have some rules written in stone so its time to make some chips. I'm sure CW is doing the same thing.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I guess new heads for all.Who makes all the cash off this change.Good for some people

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I'd love to see them myself. The problem is I'm not so sure the cars that need checking will be there.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Says the guy that spends his winters in Florida.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Although they would never admit it, there are probably many Hemi racers who wished they had never built SS/AH cars. With the way the class has "progressed", the majority of SS/AH cars are destined to never be competitive no matter how much money keeps being thrown at them. In the future look for those cars to become SS/GT pieces with a variety of Mopar engines installed...not that there would be anything wrong with that.

Hint...The newer Drag-pac hemi's put out lots of power and are still underfactored for SS/GT.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I do not think they fit in gt without changing the front end and the glass.Then any ss or gt class depending on the motor.I am in Canada this winter lots of snow.Saving my money fot my new heads.. Wendell

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Crew Chief: This has been done already with a few AH cars and they were never campaigned a whole lot after the conversion. I feel this is because the majority of the people that enter SS/AH are doing it for the heads up eliminator style racing. SS/AH is an Elite class. Look at the number of AH cars that race in the eliminator at Indy. The majority pack up on Friday night after class.

SS/AH IS a very competitive combination.You may not qualify 1.00 under based on a beat up index, but in the eliminator its a whole different ball game. Little Joe runner upped at last years 'Gators and continually does well with his AH team. He races in the eliminator and a little differently than the rest of the Hemi cars, but this is somewhat the same way I plan on campaigning my AH car.

Wendell: That was my point in the Thanksgiving Hemi Head Thread. If we could have legalized everyones heads and had a valve cover template, problem $olved. I had hoped to nip it in the bud before it came to this. Too late now

I also found it very ironic that David would be bad mouthing this rule. They should have been laughing all the way to the bank. The only thing this tells me is the Bartons have a real Love for Super Stock and put the integrity of the class before the wallet!

If the rule Jeff talks about comes to fruition in a few weeks, hopefully it will help the class and not hurt it anymore. Nothing like the off season to get your stuff ready.
The Hemi Head rule is not changing, the chips are flying and the season is underway. Time to stop bs'ing and get to work...

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

The majority were done after the first two rounds of class. How many more years will the "love" of heads up racing keep the numbers up in SS/AH? One time a year racing is no excuse to throw away money unless you have really deep pockets.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

These guys have really deep pockets! Well, at least compared to me :p