Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

removed

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

so then it's kind of back to he with the biggest wallet wins. I say that because what does a set of "legal'" heads run now? 3 grand or more depending on how fast you need to go. and each year we get away for the true origin of stock with rule enhancements for the sake of safety (race seats, wheelie bars etc...) or dependability (roller rockers). sounds like we are doing all the changing ourselves.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

.

30-40 k won't touch a competitive 275 or 10.5 car. But you are correct on one thing if I am spending that much to race it will be to run fast as possible and heads up. If I loose I work on my junk and make it better. Just like any heads up racer would do.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

If we each decide S or SS is "MY" racing the end is nearer than thought. Selfish wishes, hp demands, class demands and ...... will keep it a Participant sport. It is destined for divisional events only or continued filler at Nationals.
I see Stk and SS as OUR or everyones place to comment and move forward.
No Everyone will not be happy, everyone might not get their favorite $1000 car factored to run a national event. Everyone might not be able to afford Stk or SS. We know that today.
If the majority wish to move it back towards its beginning as a Spectator appeal, Sponsor appeal and possible more enjoyment for Winning class( defined as beating 4 or 5 cars for class) then so be it. That can happen.
Want to run at an empty track, two days before spectators show up, no sponsor money unless you buy a cam a year, then vote that way.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

I didn't realize nitrous and turbos had got so expensive.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Some people think that stock and super stock eliminator is ours. It is not, it belongs to NHRA. Does it have a fan base? Not much. Is it a performance based eliminator? Not really, it is mostly a bracket type race.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

oooooooo! you're gonna get in trouble!!!!!

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Enough Said......Thank You.......

Joe Mocci

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Agreed.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Dick, I'm going to guess that your comment is a slap at my remark that I always considered this "My Sport". We are all pretty much a bunch of selfish, spoiled brats! Let's face it, we're not cureing cancer or ending world hunger here!
And it is "My Sport". It may be NHRAs to own but I can still take from it what I will and make it mine. Like or not, I accept their rules and play by their rules. When I decide that I no longer like playing by their rules, I'll either quit or start the "Billy Hot Rod Assn.".

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Cause all you have to do is bolt on nitrous or a turbo and you are immediately a front runner in 275 or 10.5 classes....haha.

And a nice built turbo system will easily be over $10,000 once you figure single or twin turbo, turbo manifold(s), waste gate(s), blow off valves(s), downpipe(s), waste gate dump tubes, intercooler piping, couplers, clamps, intercooler, water tank, pumps, lines and fitting if it's air-to-water, etc. Add that on top of a motor that can easily trump the cost of a competitive stock or super stock motor and do the math. :)

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

A different spin on this topic: Racer participation this weekend

Cordova Divisional: 54 entries in stock, 31 entries in SS

Tulsa Divisional: 40 entries in stock, 37 entries in SS

Epping National: 68 entries in stock, 45 entries in SS

Bowling Green Combo Race, 54 entries

To me it sure looks like a lot of participation this weekend. Tulsa would be at 41 in stock, had I been a little bit more prepared.

Congratulations to all participants and winners this weekend.

Sean

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

I sat here at the breakfast table and read this whole thread. I hope Stock/SuperStock racing doesn't seek to exist in the near future.

Right now, my attempts to join the fraternity keep running into roadblocks. My FWD car sits in limbo in the driveway, stripped of the few parts we added to it, now merely an object that needs moved from time to time to be mowed under. It was originally my step sons car, now subject to a Federal court case. It's fate yet to be determined. I want to personally thank Ron Seibenak, Dennis Roberts and Billy Nees for advise and help with that car.

My other car, the 79 Firebird, still sets in its corner of the garage. Due to lack of time or lack of money, it's just not getting worked on. I have most of the pieces to make the chassis a roller. Have of a lot ot the parts to build a good basic IHRA crate engine. Blame myself for apathy, just can't personally get motivated enough to start putting it altogether. Want give a personal thank you to Alex and his son Tony Dysenko for advise and getting me a few parts to at least get this thing to a point I can refer to it as a car. Also a shout out to Bruce Parsons, whom went out of his way to build me a set of heads to replace a set that were stolen from my shop. Just hope we get to use them someday.

Meanwhile, my long time friend and racing partner, Tod Lane and I continue to work on our ancient old 66 Chevy II bracket car. Just want to get this car redone. Just too many projects and lack of focus.

I'm somewhat established in life. For someone in their 20's or 30's, even with a good income. All hobbies are expensive, in their own ways. Racing, it isn't just having a car. You need to have a place to store and work on it. Both a vehicle and a trailer to transport it. As well as both tools and support equipment to work on it. I agree with what was said here, young people want to go fast and race heads up. I ran into a young guy I used to work with at a bracket race last summer. He wanted to know why were we running this slow "pos" and not running our Chevy II? He was smart enough to understand what we had done with the car. Just couldn't fathom why or how anyone could get excited running a slow race car.

The days of building a car in the driveway are far behind us. Around here, in many places if you live in town, they won't let you have a vehicle in the driveway that isn't plated. Now, they won't in many cases let you park a trailer, RV or boat in your driveway. With the way all state and local Govt's are seeking revenue. How long before you have to have some kind of personal CDL just to pull a trailer?

Ok enough ranting and whining. Enough of a long winded post, just hope it isn't a lot of useless drivel. To those that keep this alive, I applaud you. Just hope, one day, I show back up in the staging lanes, WITH a car.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Edgewater Buckeye S/SS Series: 31 entries (1 broke)


Back to "no new blood"... Mark Chaney's daughter gets her first crack in his GT/EA today at Tri-State, John Frech's son was driving yesterday, there's Jake Magee, Zac Ross, Brad Ross, the Darroch brothers... and that's just folks that run the Buckeye series.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Carey I do realize how much it cost was just getting a shot in at some of our less disrespectful members who seem to have all the answers lately about every topic posted. I actually have a friend who runs 275 so I know what's involved. I have an appreciation of all cars and types of racing especially the crazy fast ones like yours. Hope I get to see it in person in the near future.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

New Blood...


I have been reading here for a bit over a year now. My first impression of S/SS from here (classracer.com) was... (honest opinion) Its a good old boys club that wants nothing to do with new racers or helping them. They are proud of it too. :eek:

I have no family or friends that have ever been into racing. Everything I know is self taught.

After my first two races in the real world! I have a totaly different outlook on class racers.:D The drivers I meet were super friendly and fun to be around. Nothing like what I had prepared myself for.

I'm 100% hooked and want to do nothing else but improve my program and make my the car better. If I wade through the nasty crap from the folks that just want to be nasty there is lots of valuable info here.

There is new blood in your sport and will grow more. IMO your not seeing more people here because this is a ruff house! I see guys saying Yellow Bullet is bad, I have seen just as much mud slinging if not more on here! Most people here are not afride to tell it how it is and do it under there real name. Over there they talk ***** but you have no clue who it is and so it's no big deal.

I will continue to read and take in as much "GOOD" info as I can here. I'm also working on two other guys I know to start racing Class!

I don't see the end just a small change in the way you keep attracting new racers.:D
View from a rookie!:)

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Thanks for posting this Carey. I was going to post in response to James but I didn't want to disrespect him. Funny how some can be sarcastic and smart to others but it is a one way street if you give it back. I am currently switching to a turbo setup and it is very costly even doing all the piping fabrication myself.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Nathan don't get your panties in a wad. I'm not disrespecting anyone, as I said before I respect all racing and racers its all expensive and should be enjoyable. I was just getting in a little light hearted jab in there but not serious about it, as a matter of fact I think all this crap up here is ridiculous but when you jump into the conversation you should be careful how you word things. I'm sure you are pretty cool guy but when I read some of the post by you and others they come across with a bit of sarcasm, not to be confused with one person up here who seems to know everything. It's just a matter of how things are worded. You may have had all good intentions but you came into the conversation at a time when many up here are fed up with one individual so you probably caught some backlash from that. Good luck with your turbo set up and despite my earlier post I do know how expensive they are.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

This is a really good idea, this should be tried. If Pinks could generate a interest, so could this.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Maybe not a direct response but a general thought; If all involved here on this discussion were one-on-one by phone or face, or even hanging out in a trailer together as a group, everybody would get their point across and everybody would get along just fine.
The crappy thing about the internet (and it's a long list), is emotions, inflictions of the voice, body language, etc., just doesn't make it across the screen, no matter how many LOL's you throw out there. Heck, I was talking to an older gentleman (customer) about this recently and he had it nailed when he said not only the keyboard has drastically changed our way of communication as a society but so has the cell phone. Think about it. When two people are on a land line, you can have a conversation in "real time" and there isn't that .002 second delay that encourages you not to interrupt at all; it seems you are waiting for the other party to finish all the time.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

I always thought when I made up my mind to race in 1963 that it would fun to Race a Class Car and have always ran a Class car since the very beginning and see no reason to change. I enjoyed the racing a lot and at that time racing was just that . About the Early 70s I stated to realize Just what was going on with these Stock and Super Stock Racers. I then really started to enjoy racing even more.

It is all about Attitude, Atmosphere, Family, and Compassion: I then realized that the Stock and Super Stock Racers have” Something Very Special”.

The Racers are the Movers and Shakers of their world. They make Major Decisions in their Community, their Business, their Churches, and the Company they worked for. They have the uncanny ability to “See The Whole Picture” I then knew what this whole deal was about. They are all very positive about life. They also have this same aggressive and positive attitude in Racing.
They are very successful in their world and have a choice to what class they can run. But will not change, as this is their challenge.

The Class racers are very Family oriented. They treat just about everyone equal at the Drag Strip from the youngest person to the oldest person, with unity in racing. Heck no wonder the children of Drag Racers have turned out successful as the kids were treated with high esteem from the very beginning and know how to have discipline in their lives.. These racers were able to communicate to all, their high standards, family values, and most important their integrity to others in a way that is awesome. The fact that their whole families are devoted to adhering to a set of rules, discipline is there. The fact that their families are willing to sacrifice for one goal is amazing. . These Friends that a racer develops at a race track is like no other sport, as these are friends who would support each other for ever, but on “The Line” they are going to rip you apart and then if they lose afterwards they will help that racer for the next round. Amazing isn’t it.

Compassion like no other is abound. Most of the racers are very compassionate about the Stock and Super Stock Class. Most of the racers eat, drink, dream, and think about how to make their car go faster and quicker every day within the rules. They don’t race for profit. They race with compassion. They are very disciplined and believe in rules. They are honest and have a high standard to adhere to. When they think a rule is out of line they will react with passion. They will move in a professional fashion to change the rule. They want to run in a” Performance Oriented Class” As Stock and Super Stock Racing is Their Life. These racers will look you straight in the Eye and go deep into your mind and say well done ,with out saying a word and the person who understands this will acknowledge the inner satisfaction of the silent compliment of you won this time but be ready next time.

One of the most Amazing things in Life about these Stock and Super Stock racers is that they will never quit and the last one standing will be the Winner or is that true?
In My opinion the Stock and Super Stock Racers and their Families are all winners for ever and when it is all over someone will say “Well Done Stock And Super Stock Racers You are all Winners” and you have made a difference in Life
I wrote this a "few" years ago and still believe it applies now ,just my opinion
Don

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Going to Piedmont, NC this weekend for a IHRA Pro-Am event. I see they are having a
Stock/Super-Stock Combo race on Saturday of the event,.......... with buy-backs.

Buy backs were started in the first place at a bracket race up north. It was a suggestion made as a way to meet a minimum number of entries for a full pay out. The car count at
the bracket race wasn't very good. Hence, buy backs. See the similarity?

I suggest we race all the regional Stock/Super-Stock events we can, if for no other
reason than to keep ourselves interested. Anybody too good to hit a few "no box" E.T.
races also?

Hope everyone has a safe week.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

When this thread was started it was in the form of a question.

I am sure that most S and SS racers want to continue with what they enjoy. I was just thinking about some ways that we as racers could help.

Kyle and I were thinking about what could be done by the racers themselves to help improve our (S and SS) position. Maybe NHRA does not need any help from us. I believe anything that can be done to improve attendance, while emphasizing S and SS, is a plus for everyone involved.

I apoligize if anybody took my question as a statement of S and SS coming to a end. Bottom line I just want to see it continue and grow.

Problems are somethimes hard to correct, but new ideas and suggestions on the positive side are essential.

Appreciate all who responded

RJ

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

NHRA needs to Listen to Stock and Super Stock racers they know how to solve NHRA problems and can make sure NHRA will be successful in the future . I know this for a Fact

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Well said Don, and your earlier post was also, amazing that you wrote it several years ago and its all still relevant.

RJ

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

RJ, it is still relevant and Don's comments are perfect. I have to believe that those at NHRA that read this forum understand that those of us that love this sport, want it to get better......Those that are critics and spread doom and gloom, need to find something else to do.

If I were to believe that Stock and Super Stock racing is doomed..................Don and I will be racing at the next Arizona Nationals Finals. (I ain't quitting.....I am too old to change)

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

RJ and Don. Your comments are very true. I am afraid many cannot fathom changes that might affect their personal focus. Part of these classes is the major book work used to find the "magic combination" . This research provided a starting point for an advantage which promised to make us more competitive than others in the class. The only problem has been this research led to political pressure to create a place to run more and more combinations and more and more specs to adjust.
Result is the massive class structures done to please the most people to keep or increase the participants.
Problems developed for class racing as Total racers in the country might have become static while classes increased. Result less per class participation in areas of the country, fewer participants to allow in the event to have class winners instead of bye runs.
Result emphysis of racers shifted to eliminator from class win.Pride in winning a Trophy was decreased by bye run wins.
Less emphysis on Record holding and also not rewarded with points so no reason to tear down.
Along came Factory Bogus cars (Only bogus due to neglect of potential by NHRA)
Hope the working to win Class can come back in more events and classes.
Are people really willing to move from the 50 year old parts and specs to a cheaper more standard car to create a show in class racing(like Mod class with limits) I doubt people can change their focus if it were suggested.
I LOVE CLASS RACING.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Car counts might look down from years past on the surface. But, a few facts to consider:

~Quotas. 1996, I went to the Keystone Nationals at Maple Grove. 126 S/S showed up. 1999 (the Hurricane year), 132 or so Stockers were on the sheet (a few DNQ's). But now, with NHRA setting the quota for some races at 60-80 cars, you can't just look at that and say "Oh my, car counts are down..." NHRA makes it appear that way but cutting the car count (quotas) in half from 15 or so years ago.

~Some people are picking and choosing events. They may not go to certain LODRS or National events, for a variety of reasons (too many races in close proximity, in both distance from home and many races within a short time frame, plus alternative events like S/SS Associations, IHRA, bigger money bracket events, etc). Look at Division 1 the past few weeks. Memorial Day was Maple Grove LODRS, next weekend E-Town National, two weeks later Lebanon Valley NY LODRS, the next week Epping Nat'l. Week before Maple Grove was the Norwalk LODRS (many D-1 racers attend). Memorial Day I also had two S/SS races at Quaker City in Ohio (just over the PA line) and the week of E-town was the IHRA races at Pittsburgh. One or more races may have had a slightly lesser car count because some can not afford (in money or time off work) to attend all. Some people elect not to go to certain tracks because of conditions (pit area, race surface, other reason or combination of the above). Lebanon Valley had over 100 Stockers. Maple Grove always gets over 100 on Memorial Day.

Just a few things to consider. I wouldn't say Class Racing is dying. Certain events/tracks may suffer a bit for varying reasons. But dying? Not sure I would use that term. And, yes, there are some newer/younger talent coming into Class Racing (would still be one more if NHRA/IHRA hadn't ran him off). Hopefully the next few years will see an equal number coming in as racers leave... become older, start cutting back, retiring, or worse.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

As the son of the legend Jimmy Waibel who raced from the days of flag starts in 1958 at Lake Wales, Fl through the glory days of jr.Stock, a major player in the STK factory wars of the 60's and 70's to the bracket format of today, I have become a DIE-hard 2nd gen racer driving his last car he built and my oldest son Jacob turns 15 in just a few weeks and he already moves "by driving" the car around the shop and even load it in the box. He has plans of moving up to Top Fuel and he will. He learned the track from his jr. Dragster, he will tell you he will learn to drive in the K&N camaro and then after a season or two he wants to go a big rail car, than to the world of Top fuel and he will tell you its because each step is important to be a champion. Now the only reason Iam not wining in the K&N camaro YET.... I had to pay my dues in the racing world I feel they are paid and there is a wally coming back to Waibel Comptition in STOCK thats what built NHRA thats what started it all "....my cars faster than yours......." so 2nd and 3rd gen drivers stay true to your roots for things we take for granted I.E. order any part and race they had to build ans stock/super stock Racing will only die if our generation allows it.
Jeremy Waibel
Waibel Competition
'69 K&N Camaro
NHRA STK 2230
:eek:

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

I am a young S or S/S enthusiast and love class racing and I am in the early 20-30 year old demographic and currently bracket race at Norwalk and I hope in the next 10 or soo maybe more years I will build my own class car....... I know most of the younger generation currently racing at Norwalk and DWAY 42 in West Salem as I have raced every week in and out for 10 years since Jr Dragsters and every one of them thoroughly enjoys bracket racing and almost every one of them wants a 7 second dragster and every one of thems goal is to run in the .90 classes either Super Comp or Super Gas and they all love delay box racing with throttle stops and the whole every young kid wants to run heads up 10.5 or radial classes are highly exagerated. I refuse to run a delay box as I would rather leave off the bottom bulb and drive the car like past racers have. My father has never raced before and I started driving a Jr Dragster that he bought for me(including trailer) and he has always supported me and we bought a Bracket tube chassied Pinto that I have raced for the past 3 or 4 years(sooo please not all kids in Drag Racing are second generation racers) and he is also a big fan of Super Stock and thats our ultimate goal! Heres an ideer and dont slaughter me for it but How about a older car with a new engine GT class? Its all the rage in car building to put a new LS GM engine in an old Camaro or a Mod Motor in a old fastback Mustang sooo why not in Stock or Super Stock? Most kids I went to school with somewhat know new cars but love muscle cars and I always got alot of praise driving my 78 Dodge to school and I think it would be very popular just thinking out loud.....

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

There is nothing wrong tith the index classes they are part of drag racing and as A a Racer on any level I would never discourage any young drive to make it to where they want to be. everyone must know that our sport has two people drivers and passangers. now if your not a 2nd or 3rd gen racer than you have the abillity to set a path for your legacy and if you land in the .90 classes than make sure that if there comes a day that s/c comes under fire than they have the passion to fight for it..........

Jeremy Waibel
K&N 69 Camaro
NHRA STK 2230

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

I agree 100% and I was just making a point that heads up racing is certainly not where the younger generation is going and actually I think its rather kool that they can reach theyre goal in Drag Racing sooo much faster than I can and its a lot better than some older gents I know that. Theyre goal is to run Top Sportsman or a faster class and spend their whole life and bank account credit card etc trying to race a class soooo expensive and out of reach they run themselves broke and out of racing but I understand TS and TD are waaay kool too

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Stay at it, and some day you will have a class car.
Heck, I got hooked on Stock Eliminator when I was 21.....took me 30 years before I entered my first Stock race.
A little late to the party. LOL
But, I'm in now. :)


I've often wondered how it would be to use any year car that is listed in the classification guide and be able to use any year engine that is also in the guide. (within corporate boundaries of course)
Now that would be cool...however tech would have to have 2 separate tech sheets.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Nothing wrong with that idea at all. If I don't get to build my own car initially, we will convert our 1972 Duster to a GT class car as we have nothing but BBM stuff in the garage. Any low block combo will be fair game when we make that step. Just have some other stuff to take car of before getting to that point. We younger generation have to be able to replace those that retire or quit so its good there are some of us that have aspirations to race in the Stock, Super Stock, and Comp.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

To me though. That's part of the problem. Stock class is getting farther and farther away from stock. I built a Stock class car about 4 years ago. Ive taken it to about 3 NHRA events in the last 4 years. And only 3 because of how I was treated. Very first race I went to in DIV 1. Got treated like shi* by tech and all the officials. Im guessing all because I was new. I had one issue in tech. I did not have an NHRA decal anywhere on my car. Which I took care of right away. Then was given a bunch of shi* during fuel check, because I did what they guy next to me did. You would have thought it was the end of the world. And NHRA wonders why they have no turn out. If you treat the racer just a little better, then they might make more $ and have a better car count. Ive had no desire to go back to any NHRA event since. Then back to the whole "Stock Class" thing. The class is getting farther and farther away from stock. Roller rockers, etc etc etc. I know my opinion does not mean much. But just my experiences with NHRA.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Scott it is very unfortunate that you were treated poorly. It should not matter if you are new or old to the game. All I can suggest is having someone experienced in class racing to get you pointed in the right direction at your first few races. Make it a point to talk to the tech guys during the race. They are not at the race to be the bad guys. But if they need to be they will, and have every right to be. The tech guys are under the gun to get cars through tech to keep things moving, inexperienced and unprepared racers may push their buttons and could have been the result of how you were treated.
Where I live, I have D-3, and D-4 races within 3-5 hrs from me. D-3, and 4 tech guys have always been great to deal with. If you are an out of division racer they will usually really look things over well, but if you have a clean car and have followed the rule book there will be no issues.
Just because the rules change to allow seats, roller rockers and whatever else that comes along, does not mean everyone has to jump in and start keeping up with the jones.

Sean

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Biscayne:

You have a beautiful car.
Restoring my 1969 Impala frame up.
Should be ready next year...

D

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

It is my opinion that the "end of Stock and SuperStock racing" will not likely come upon us in the form of a bolt of lightning and a clap of thunder. Rather, it will seep into our lives in the manner of carbon monoxide slithering under the door, a virtually undetectable, highly lethal mixture of an aging constituency and creeping economics.

Instead of an earth-shaking announcement that puts us all out of business at once like a medical pandemic, it will more likely take on the form of three thousand separate, widely spread obituaries popping one-at-a-time as each of us is overtaken either by the grim reaper or the realization that individual ingenuity and personal commitment are no longer adequate tools to offset the effects of the almighty checkbook in a pay-to-play environment.

Drag racing drew most of us in with the offering of "doing" not "watching" car racing. When we can no longer "do" most of us simply decline to "watch."

Cheers,

c

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

Ah yes........They don't come any better than Chuck Norton when he post's on a thread. Listen to him well those who are younger than 30 years of age. He has his mind and head on the pulse of NHRA stock and S/S drag racing and says it better than anyone. He has been there and done that. It will take time but the state of class racing is on borrowed time.

Re: End of Stock and SuperStock Racing??
 

What is the frame for borrowed time? 2 years 4,6 20. Should I cut the roll bar out of my car and turn in into a street car?

The times are changing, the moral of the story is ( Get out and race if you want to ) enjoy it, because nothing is forever. People are still class racing. Nobody knows when the end will happen. Enjoy the ride, and dont worry about when the end is coming. Chances are we cannot do anything about it.

Xtech Man: When it ends nobody is going to care wether you predict it or not. You have been out of our ranks for years. Im not really sure your finger is on the pulse of anything current anyway. At least not keyboard racing.