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That is a good assessment. There are noticeable differences in the rule book between building a SS/GT/Modified and a Comp Super Modified car.

As a matter of fact, a respected chassis builder shared with me it is easier for him to build a Comp Super Mod car than a legal SS/GT/Modified chassis, especially regarding the floor and rear suspension allowances given to Comp class.

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

bingo!

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I don't think separating FWD & RWD platforms was a bad idea at all.

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One of those was a new Challenger that beat a FWD car and another, GT/IA, was decided by a red light which the FWD car was faster.

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Garbarine, Mattingly, Cour....

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Bryan,

Do you really consider your car a disadvantage over a newer Cobalt or something equivalent ? I can understand if it's a 67 Camaro like I have vs. a Cobalt.

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Indy Class winners GT, I count 7 FWD and 6 RWD, unless you count the truck then 7 and 7. One in the top 16 unless you count the truck, then 2.
Out of 146 competitors, I count 20 RWD plus 3 trucks. I count 21 GT FWD.
The rest of course almost typical SS and modifieds ( some of which may be FWD )
What does it prove? I don't know, but I had to take off my shoes to count that high..HaHah
Had a great time in the stands last year as I couldn't even get down the track.

Ernie Neal
SS354

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Indy Class Finals in S/S 2013:

GT/C (3)
W: 3885 David Manning, Louisville, Ky. ('89 Beretta/327) .076 9.377 142.28
L: 356 David Neal, Columbus, Ind. ('05 Sunfire/327) -.004 10.763 125.58

GT/G (2)
W: 31 Brad Zaskowski, Belding, Mich. ('87 Camaro/327) .043 10.001 133.65
L: 3997 Bill Zaskowski, Belding, Mich. ('66 Nova/327) .000 10.107 128.65

GT/L (2)
W: 5546 David Smith, Kearney, Neb. ('66 Nova/283) .009 10.771 122.43
L: 29 James Hill, Fayetteville, Ga. ('64 Mustang/302) .631 15.822 53.89

GT/BA (3)
W: 397M Brina Splingaire, N. Riverside, Ill. ('08 Cobalt/350) .025 10.193 94.66
L: 391 Irvin Johns, Charlestown, Ind. ('08 Cobalt/346) -.008 9.301 141.56

GT/CA (6)
W: 3028 Jerry Silveus, Van Buren, Ohio ('05 Cavalier/350) .038 9.485 124.97
L: 3471 Casey McCarty, Indianapolis, Ind. ('87 Firebird/455) NT-Broke After Staging

GT/DA (4)
W: 330 Lynn Ellison, Central City, Ky. ('05 Sunfire/350) .037 9.639 121.92
L: 3332 Todd Frantz, Louisville, Ky. ('88 Beretta/350) -.034 9.641 121.80

GT/EA (2)
W: 3388 Mark Nowicki, Gaylord, Mich. ('98 Avenger/360) .129 11.361 107.46
L: 3921 Ryan Richardson, Greenbrier, Tenn. ('92 Camaro/327) NT-Broke Before Staging

GT/FA (2)
W: 381B Dennis Breeden, Plainville, Ind. ('10 Challenger/345) .006 10.042 133.74
L: 4026 Mike Bryant, New Orleans, La. ('08 G5/305) .351 9.980 129.12

GT/GA (2)
W: 3176 Dave Layer, Dayton, Ohio ('08 Cobalt/305) .062 9.909 119.02
L: 4789 Hagen Gary, Pearland, Texas ('02 Camaro/327) .018 10.080 129.75

GT/HA (4)
W: 318 Dan Kyle, Lawrenceburg, Ind. ('87 Firebird/350) .025 10.092 121.76
L: 7 David Rampy, Piedmont, Ala. ('87 Camaro/327) .011 10.187 129.79

GT/IA (2)
W: 340 Rich South, Pataskala, Ohio ('82 Firebird/305) .064 10.268 127.70
L: 3612 Leonard Mattingly, Cox's Creek, Ky. ('96 Achieva/305) -.024 10.202 130.57

GT/JA (3)
W: 4288 Tony Cowell, Hudson Oakes, Texas ('81 Camaro/455) .008 10.396 128.07
L: 1227 Michael Volkman, Moon, Pa. ('00 Sebring/318) .049 10.433 130.69

GT/MA (6)
W: 3573 John Stock, Sandusky, Ohio ('92 Ciera/265) .032 10.870 116.59
L: 3548 Garrett Ghezzi, Dolton, Ill. ('69 AMX/290) .070 10.927 120.54

GT/TB (3)
W: 3001 J.J. Twitchell, Elkhart, Ind. ('03 S-10/350) .113 9.815 133.75
L: 2039 Matt Hoover, Adamsville, Tenn. ('01 S-10/350) -.010 9.957 130.34

Combo-Stick (5)
W: 3712 Stephen Belanger, Elizabeth, Ind. ('05 Cavalier/327) .022 9.368 129.59 GT/B 10.10 -0.732
L: 4346 Dick Lux, San Antonio, Texas ('64 Comet/289) -.068 11.152 117.94 SS/M 11.60 -0.448

Combo-Auto (6)
W: 107 Wes Leopold, Bridgeville, Pa. ('05 Stratus/394) .012 8.708 158.87 SS/AS 9.60 -0.892
L: 388 Paul Hellenberg, Dry Ridge, Ky. ('05 Cavalier/346) .069 9.410 139.13 GT/AA 10.10 -0.690

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

all I did was give you a look at the fastest car in each GT class, that was it, just the current fastest. Wish I wouldn't even posted that

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And I thought geeks were data crazy,,,

Dale

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Man, there's a lot to digest since I posted.

First, you young'uns need to look up (or ask somebody that was there) the history of the GT cars and for that matter, the FWD conversions. In all likelihood, you wouldn't have a place to race now had that not happened.
Yea, I know you may think I'm making this up. Check it.

Now, this inherent (I read it , huge) advantage the FWD cars have.
Well....better ask the AH guys. Don't hear them whining. Have stock control arms, stock K-member, stock steering box and steering and, yes, 45 year old (unaerodynamic) bodies.
Doesn't appear to slow them down (@160+ mph). Who ever dreamed they could go this fast? Not me.
So what is the difference? For the most part, these cars are state-of-the-art chassis in old bodies. Aerodynamics??? Doesn't appear to matter, in my opinion.
The trouble is, there have been few, if any 45 year old "new" Super Stock cars built with today's technology. Big difference! (yes, there are some stockers built with success).
**PM me if you want to know more as I have an example.

Food for thought......
Anybody remember John Lingenfelter's A/ED and it's success? (yea, I know I'm old and that was comp).
Ask someone or look it up as it could easily pertain here.
"Be careful what you wish for" , the same thing could happen again.

Now go work on your stuff, guys.

FJ

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I could care less because as I'm one of the people that needs to go work on my s$$t. I will say this if you think a Cavalier,Cobalt,G5 etc doesn't have a advantage aero wise over say a piece of plywood like a Chevy II then I have some ocean front property for sale in West Texas lol.

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....

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I want that bumper sticker!!! :p

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...

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Drag coefficient isn't the whole story, a fourth gen camaro has a drag coefficient of .34 and a new massive Dodge Durango is .33. You have to multiply drag coefficient by the frontal area to get the real numbers. Here are some numbers I found searching online (may not be 100% accurate, couldn't find a database with all of them).

1988 Camaro IROC Z-> Cd = 0.34, A = 21.00 ft^2, CdA = 7.14 ft^2
1988 Firebird Trans Am-> Cd = 0.31, A = 20.75, CdA = 6.43
1993-2002 Camaro-> Cd = 0.34, A = 22.00, CdA = 7.48
1993-2002 Firebird-> Cd = 0.34, A = 22.00, CdA = 7.48
1995-2005 Cavalier-> Cd = 0.38, A = 20.2, CdA = 7.24
1997 Sunfire-> Cd = 0.38, A = 22.2, CdA = 7.68
2005 Cobalt-> Cd = 0.324, A = 23.1, CdA = 6.90
2005 Stratus-> Cd = 0.33, A = 23.1, CdA = 7.03
C6 Corvette -> Cd = 0.286, A = 22.3, Cd = 6.38
C5 Corvette-> Cd = 0.29, A = 21.3, CdA = 6.18
2008-11 Challenger-> Cd = 0.35, A =25.3, CdA = 8.86

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

FJ, sorry but AH cars are no where near the stock chassis that came from the factory. I have heard the steering is moved as well. Then there is the motor. MANY MANY variations from what was allowed in SS 10 years ago. Those motors would make a FWD run better too. Reason they don't complain is they are ALL one Chassis. All one motor. All same motor rules..... An expensive Mod class just called SS. Again fake HP ratings but it doesn't matter since they can ALL do the same stuff to the same parts...
If all 69 Camaros with 350 PG you would still hear NO COMPLAINTS.. Use the factoring system and the any chassis deal and havoc results.

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Try running a G body!!!
I've been writing letters way before fwd conversions.
Gary Norman

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Randall

Seems I got left off the "gift list for the 390 Ford".

A few years ago somebody knocked off 50-75 HP off some Corvette, then the 400 Chevy got a typo, then the 390 Fords got a gift, and the 383's (both stones), I'm sure there are other examples as well

I'm at a loss......

RJ

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Fixed it for you Dick. After the last Hemi debacle I realized that even when I do complain, no one listens anyway!!!

Carry on, Labor days coming- I've got a lot of work to do....

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Is that new??
________________________________________________

So many of the factoring decisions are political at best. It goes like this . . . . . Some person in NHRA's chain of command gets inundated by complaints from some racer they like, or think is okay, and that racer makes good, valid arguments why this or that change is necessary to "make things fair". That NHRA person then has his way of thinking twisted to align with the racer and every time the unfair situation becomes a topic of conversation, his point of view has already been set. Now we know that these NHRA people are not that technical, so their ability to do a rational analysis is limited. And, they will not often research the issue to gain more evidence, they will just talk about it more. When they hear about this issue from more racers, they talk more (from the same point of view). Finally, a critical mass is reached and the tipping point results in policy change, index changes, hp factors, new rules etc. Often they don't even go back and review the results of their decisions, they just go through more cycles like described above.

The points to learn are 1) be liked by your NHRA people; 2) talk a lot (don't gripe, whine and argue); and 3) do more of 1) and 2).

Example in fact: Years ago, a friend of mine got his little combination factored, way before the AHFS. To keep the effect of this story as civil as possible, let's call my friend Ricky Mac. Ricky Mac was not a braggard or rude or unlikeable. He didn't talk much to many people, but worked on his car a lot with his head, not his pocket book. Also, he rarely raced out of Div 4 and was not a contender for a national title or such. Many other cars similar to his were being raced across the country using the same engine but not at the same performance level. However, some **st coast whiners who ran the same classes began a campaign of talking and complaining, and after a stellar performance by Ricky Mac one weekend under mineshaft coastal conditions, the whines got traction and the pencil was put to paper for Ricky. There was a little problem, however. There were people that were liked more than Ricky Mac, let's called them Friends of Glendale or FOG for short, who ran the same engine in other body styles, and the pencil would have put the hurt to them. So, the solution came with a factor placed only on the particular engine and body combination that Ricky Mac raced. So, you could race that particular engine in dozens of other body styles at 10 hp less (aerodynamics be damned!) . Talk about micro, micro factoring!

And that difference stayed in the class guide until this year when, under the guise of the AHFS, another stellar performance by two of such cars raced by Ricky Mac and his friend Tommy Joe in a heads-up race triggered another round of factoring. However, this time the increase was applied across the board to all other makes using this engine, except a few body styles that were passed by. And you guessed it, in the group of body styles that missed the machete of factoring included the body styles used by FOG.

Whether or not all that has been intentional or not, I do not know. But the evidence is mighty curious. The lessons to learn are that you need to follow points 1), 2) and 3) above, there is not a lot of technical consideration given to decisions, and work on your car like FJ said.

(Disclaimer: The facts given are true. The names have been changed to protect all. Such behavior is based on past history and in no way is a predictor of future performance.)

Re: HP Adjustments on NHRA.com
 

Sounds like I need to update Herbie!

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Herb... you made a good point comparing your 67 camaro to your 87 camaro (being a tenth quicker and 2 mph quicker).
Now here is where I disagree with this whole point. Why do we only look at the FWD vs RWD comparison. If they give the RWD's a break, why don't they do the same for Ryan's 67 camaro? (obviously 1 tenth slower as you stated), What about a shoebox (Randall Klein's car) running GT (a bigger disadvantage). Doesn't an RWD 87 camaro have a huge advantage in GT over that car (55 shoebox).
My point is where do you stop? They stopped with the RWD vs FWD comparison which only helps certain people (not the masses).
I hope this makes sense....

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If that data is correct, I am really surprised at the difference between the 1988 Camaro and 1988 Firebird. I wasn't aware a 1988 Firebird was that much better than the later Firebird. Very interesting.

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Exactly!

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Could you do the numbers on my wagon??

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Removed post, my computer was hacked, lol

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OMG ....I should've kept my cavalier !!!!!!!!!!!!

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I disagree that if I run GT with my 67 Camaro, I have to claim the heaviest shipping weight offered in a 67 Camaro. Now how is that fair when you are going to be running a Cobalt at 2670 and the lightest I can weigh is 3130!!! Explain that one to me! Why does an older car have a disadvantaged when it comes to shipping weights?

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.....

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It's a mess

One thing I never cared for in IHRA is the alphabet soup classes: what the heck is that?

Besides racing, I enjoy following SS, and I've always liked mentally noting what a traditional SS should run; being impressed when a SS/AA hemi ran into the 8's, or recently some GA early Camaro's being near the top of qualifying....it means something.

Except for traditional SS cars, you never know for sure whats pulling into the water box, what to be impressed by (or not)...but that's what we've got...still the best show going IMHO

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Super Stock Production is like Modified with more rules: production style engines and heads running lbs per cubic inch. There are 4bbl and 2bbl classes. I'm a little confused on how you can dislike something you don't know anything about.

Complete rules are available in the rulebook on www.ihra.com

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I'm pretty sure you have to run the heaviest shipping weight for a given body style so that would be a 396 weight for a 67.

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Removed post, what was I thinking!!

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Back in 74 I was bracket racing my 63 Ply at West Hampton with a single four 413, a small Lunati cam, 10” convertor, 4779 Holley and cheap headers. Without me in it the weight was 3350 with about ½ tank of gas. It typically ran 12.0s to 12.10s and occasionally dipped into the 11.90s. at 113-114.5 MPH. That summer I put the 413 into a 67 Cuda fastback that I bought from a neighbor. The Cuda had stock 273 suspension, full interior a well used set of 9 x 14 slicks and the same 10” convertor. I put an 8 ¾ rear and K member in from a 68 383 Cuda that a friend stripped. I expected it to be a lot lighter but it weighed 3330 with half a tank of gas so a mere 20lbs was the difference. It ran 11.80s and 90s at 116-117.5 the whole summer. 2 tenths and 3 MPH just in body change, I was surprised at the time.

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Michael Beard, I think what Randy was thinking is when see a regular SS/Stock car run you have a idea what motor is in the car, 305 in a Camaro, 68 cuda 426 or 69 Camaro 396, in the gt class`s it could be chevy, Pontiac, cad,& its like watching .90 class`s. Tom

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yup - try running a G Body, Ive been writing letters too but -

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I don't run gt... but questioned a friend how he got a similar car into gt. Response was heaviest weight for the body....then you can make a 200 pound adjustment before you claim your gt class.

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How do I become a member of FOG?