Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

8 Pages of @$%&

If everyone looked at the facts without personal gain, you cannot have new cars and old cars in the same class without major factoring to be fair.

NHRA and OEM have caused this problem.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I said at the beginning of this post – I am going to step out of character and say what I have not been saying for long enough – I have many Facebook friends who have asked why I did this. Since someone on here saw fit to quote a movie – I will do the same – from the movie NETWORK - ”I'm mad as Hell and I'm not going to take this anymore”

The following comments are from my posts which are seemingly ignored and not deserving a response from any of the intelligent people who post on this forum – LMFAO That is fine I am not trying to control what is said on an entertainment website with nothing but opinions.

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You are watching the future of drag racing - with current cars produced by the factories. Cars whose body styles you can purchase in a showroom today (not everybody who buys a car wants a race car).

I am sure we have spent more time -- on the engine and chassis dyno, runs down the drag strip tuning + changing things and money to go to more than 40 races in the last four years -- more than any of the keyboard jockeys on this website - message me to compare notes. For those of you who think we have not worked on our combination - get your head out of where ever it is and try seeing the light of day.

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When we bought ours - we knew we could not stay fast without a lot of work.
You guys on here still have not acknowledge the new cars take work to stay fast - I do not need recognition or support.- from anyone on here.
Some (on here) hope time stands still for another 40 years - it will not. How in the heck can the rules stand still with all that is going on in performance increases?
In the new world cars do not have carburetors or distributors - there is not a single current car produced today which does not have fuel injection and a factory computer.
A novel concept might be to race cars which are available today - that is what the big three think and NHRA does not disagree.
It’s about selling cars - not having a way to race nostalgia cars forever and ever and ever.

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I wish we were in our own eliminator - but I do that would stop the whining.
At the end of the day - it is not our game - it belongs to NHRA and the "big 3" - like it or not - it is about selling cars - not race cars.
Go to NHRA an get the rules changed - so far the old cars have been dismissed (mostly). Say to NHRA formally what you are saying on here.
Maybe we should stop racing our cars to show our displeasure with how the 40 year old cars have been screwed.

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"factory stock" it is a travesty and insult to many of my fellow racers - get your facts straight when you refer to me.
I never asked for a single rule change.
I am sure if the issues are so egregious they will listen and surely change them. I am happy with whatever rule change you can effect.
I consider it an insult when you accuse me of dishonorable decisions – I am entitled to make my own decisions and they have nothing to do with how you think.
The trouble is none of you have a clue on how hard it is to make one of these go fast.
You apparently think it does not take rear end gear changes, transmission gear changes, converter changes, tuning changes, valve spring changes, cam shaft changes and many other things, too numerous to mention. It takes way more than money but you do not want to believe that - you think you just spend your way to going fast – that causes me to doubt your racing savvy – spending is rarely the answer – hard work and effort usually nets performance increases.
I am a predictive analyst and studied very careful what I thought was the proper course of action – I never considered easy or money being the answer -now you choose to decide I am some sort of bad person with evil ulterior motives.
Perhaps I should have picked the most out of line 40 year old car and BOUGHT one of those -- that would have been OK – right? Or better yet - follow Larry Hills lead and find a combination that is only out of line …

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Please vote (on here) to see if we should abandon our new car in favor of a 40 year old one like we use to run. Have NHRA change the factory stock rules and quite beating up on people who love and are driven by drag racing.
Work for change with NHRA not me – except for Jeff T. - no fast car owners want to endure the insults you guys through around on here instead of working for change with NHRA.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

The exact words of that famous great American were "Can we get along....can we all get along?". Everyone, for some reason, injects the word "just" into his very eloquent statement.

But, I digress.

A 59 year disparity between automobiles racing one another is quickly entering the absurd. How in the Hell could anyone argue against adding Model T's, Hudson Hornets and perhaps even a Tucker? (They made 51, so....why not?)

I guarantee you, some where there is a reliable source for the cam specs on a Franklin engine, as well as the deck height and piston weight. So….why isn’t a Tucker allowed in stock and super stock?

Drag racing desperately needs something new. I know I have no idea what it is, but try telling some 25 year old not just WHAT a WCFB is, but WHY that ancient thing costs what it does today.

Fifty nine freak’n years. It’s almost comical the pretzel we’ve twisted ourselves into for no other reason than holding on to youthful memories.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

The reason model T's Hudsons, ETC. aren't allowed is
they are not in the nhra classification guide. It starts
at 1955 and does not have every possible combo for
every year. I would miss 55 chevy's if they were omitted.
Just love stock and super stock and hope it does continue
to allow diverse combo's that allow creativity and personality !
Is a 55 chevy and a copo racing cool or absurd ??
I think it is pretty cool...
As far as nhra needing something new it seems
they "big 3 are providing it.
And please don't speculate about someone else's
"youthful memories"

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I can understand the frustration of many racers with older stockers in regards to the new factory combos. As much as many die hard NHRA members may not want to race IHRA, they do have separate classes for F.I. and carb. If every racer with an older style stocker were to race IHRA for 1 or 2 years maybe NHRA would get the message. I read a previous post that stated that one racer left INDY before even racing the eliminator. If NHRA wants only newer cars in stock eliminator then let them try that for a couple years and see how it works for them. Just my .02 Pat

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Good post.

In fact,NHRA can't have old cars and old cars in the same class without some major factoring to be fair either.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Originally Posted by stocker396 http://classracer.com/classforum/ima...s/viewpost.gif
Word I have from the "ivory Tower of Glendora" is you are looking at the "NEW PRO STOCK" In the next 2 years Pro stock in its current formt will be replaced by the "Super Cars" NHRA needs to shake it up.
Has NHRA informed the current Pro Stock Teams of this? __________________

oh,that explains Dave Connolly heading for Top Fuel next year. .............:p

maybe you need to read up on the "Pro Stock Truck" lawsuit that NHRA lost years ago.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Oh, they used to be. Ask Travis Miller what used to be in that "guide".

Ask Ted Harbit what used to be in that "guide".

Go look at the current engine spec "guide" and you'll find Olds going back to 1949.

Today it's a 59 year old difference. When it's 75 years, that will REALLY be cool.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkrm8FkNwWc

Let's get some Super Stock tears.....

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

They already tried that.

Page 61 1973 NHRA drag rules "Effective January 1,1974 stock class cars will be
restricted to cars of 1965 model-year or later and each year thereafter the class will
be reserved for 10 year old cars or less only."

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Now that would be really cool.. Next time you see Travis or Ted
ask if they will put 'em back in !!!!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Want to kill Class racing, implement that bracket only system. No one is asking for massive change like that, only that the existing rules apply equally to every car in the class. Without heads up runs in eliminations what actual incentive is there to go home and work on your "junk". Heads up runs in eliminations are the coolest part of Class racing and what real drag racing is all about.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

when you have a guy with one of the fastest older cars in the country just pack up and leave before the first round of eliminations at indythat tells you something is wrong. That man probably spend at least two or three thousand dollars to go to that race and I am sure took time off of work to go do that. can anyone answer when was the last time someone with an older setup out ran a car that was 08 or newer? Equality in hp factoring will never be a reality otherwise these people would never have spent 100-125k on these cars.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

If the existing rules were applied equally to every car and not exempt certain groups there would be no issue like this. That's the whole point you're missing. Had all the FS combos been required to face the same ahfs as everyone else then factors would most certainly be more correct than they are. At one time the LT-1 and LS-1 combos had an edge due to factors but that eventually worked itself out. This exempting certain classes and thus those combos is what is the issue. And suggesting a fundamental change like you did is never an answer.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

My simple solution is to implement AHFS for factory stock.

Now that NHRA knows what they can run -

Make the FS/A index a 9.70 and make the FS/B index a 10.0

Keep it simple add 3 tenths to the FS cars and implement AHFS starting at the next race where factory stock will be run.

Also - need to run FS at more (all) races too.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Agree with this completely.

The NHRA is not being consistant with what they have done in the past regarding the new factory race cars.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I like this idea. You can't have traditional AHFS for the factory cars because they aren't classified on the typical HP/weight ratio. What you could do is implement AHFS in the same way they do for the SS modified cars - index reduction. In this case, a -1.50 run is worth about a .30 index reduction, if I remember correctly.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I proposed an idea the other day on my Facebook page:

Let ALL new (2008-newer) cars run FSS. That way, the cars in B/SA on down can run; right now it seems to be mostly AAA-AA-BB-CC cars. Run them handicapped, off the Class Index like Comp and the Combo Class runoffs, and AHFS can then apply since they are in their natural class, eight, etc; not an artificial Class/Index/weight. We had sixty-seven new cars at Indy; only thirty I think ran FSS. Under my proposed rule, ALL new cars would be in and make for a bigger show for NHRA and the OEM's.

Just a thought.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

;););) According to the 2014 NHRA RULE BOOK - All cars in Stock classes must be factory-production assembled , showroom available, and in the hands of the general public. A minimum of 500 units of a particular style must be produced.

How many of the factory cars (copo's drag-packs, cobra jets) are built each year??? How many of them are available to the general public through the dealer showrooms??

I think many of the questions can be answered by examining these criteria.

Evidently NHRA doesn't follow their own rulebook.

Don't get me wrong, I love the new cars (built after 2008), they just need to be put where they belong and factored properly.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

You're still missing the point, to the majority of us that race stock, "stock" means something that the dealer sells to the guy walking into the dealership and driving away in. These FS cars don't quite fit that description.
Having the late model cars participating has to be good for the sport, the way it was done leaves a lot to be desired.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Jeff Teuton proposed a new set of classes for the new factory cars at least 2-3 years ago, maybe longer. A set of classes from A to F, with one pound weight breaks, from 6 pounds to 11 pounds per HP.

That would be great for the factories, as well as fair and equitable treatment for all.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Buff, that'd be a good idea as long as there isn't something like that stick 5.7 Challenger to upset all the rest of the class.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Question, not that anybody would be crazy enough to try.... but do the new classes like AA/S and AAA/S allow cars which couldn't run in stock before due to fitting way above 8lbs. Something like a 427 Cobra would be fun to run if the new cars were exiled to other classes.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Hi Tom. That was part of the AHFS, that only factors a car based on transmission type (I can agree with that somewhat). The same 5.7 rated 305 (337 I believe tomorrow) with a stick is 421 with an automatic. Having all the new ('08 and newer) cars run each other in FSS will almost assure that, sooner than later, all the soft combos will get HP. Much like the EFI classes did to each other in 2003-2007.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Well maybe we can agree to disagree - you are missing the point.

These cars are purchased through a dealer.

I can not find in the rule book where it needs to be driven away.

Times have change - NHRA has changed - the world has changed.

Next year there will be 50 FSS cars - then what?

Change the index to 9.70 and 10.0 and the problem will go away for now,

Unless people keep finding new things which need to be changed - LMFAO

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Soooo I will ask the question you just opened the door for. Where do I buy a Challenger factory equipped with the V-10 motor?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I sure can!

Mr. Hagburg at Mile High Nationals. He had me beat and I knew it was coming!

I have spent MANY HOURS working on my car and after my .006 tree to his .112 he got out of it at the end of the track and still won!

Feel free to take a look here.
http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=287884


This has done nothing but make me want to work harder on my car and make it faster for our next heads up race.

Like I have posted before I know of many older combos out there with 1.00+ under the hood but they make sure they protect there combos. Meanwile some of the guys in the newer cars slaughter the combos at every race.

So yes, there are more then some would like to think.


I may be new but if you don't think I spend long hours working on my car my wife and son can tell you other wise!!!

IMO if new cars race on the ladder they must live under the same AHFS everyone else does and every race I run this is the case. Indy is the only one they toss it of for the FSS car's and I understand why people get mad.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Ron, you just nailed the deal. In the 1960's these cars were called "Factory Experimental". The same set of rules should apply today.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Finally .. a simple answer .. I bought ours through Jeff Teuton's Southland dodge in 2011 .. the only year it was offered to the lucky 50 .. but somehow I am sure that answer will not be good enough.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

THIS hits the nail right on the head! Since when are different classes within Stock allowed different rules? Now I guess that the big three are throwing money at the sanctioning body, huh?

No doubt, new cars NEED to be involved but at a level playing field.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Yep. Then you have Teuton running a car/motor combo that doesn't even
exsist...Except in Glendora.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

You didn't buy that thru the showroom. You bought that as a part number from the parts department and that was the whole point you missed. There has never been any of these that have been available off the showroom floor.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

The racers (Burton and Wilkes) that initiated this conversation were running B/SA. How does changing the FSS index fix anything regarding factory race cars being allowed to get free rounds at the expense of the loyal traditional stocker?

You made a decision to replace your well used '70 Chevy stocker with a 1 of 50 V10 Challenger. Probably a good move on your part if it turns you on.

Keep LYFAO

Tracy

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

wow where do I start, I wont cause it would make a bunch of people upset

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

And the new cars dead horse keeps get beat. The problem is not new the cars or there bogus HP ratings. The problem is you guys don’t like the new style of SS/STK racers with large amounts disposable income. All you old time 70’s, 80’s and 90’s racers are mad because $125,000 buys your way to the top. And your $50,000 stocker with bogus heads and intake or $75,000 SS car with a $35,000 Eng that comes dyno and ready to run is left in the dust. But 10 years ago all of you that are crying had no problem spending that money and beating the guys that were spend less money than you. Now the tables have turned and they have the advantage and you don’t. That’s the real reason you all are mad, everyone always throws stones at the people at the top.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Short version:
1) The factory race cars are indefensibly underfactored. Start their factor anywhere CLOSE to the right zip code and there would not have been anywhere near as many complaints about them.

2) Having some classes ineligible to be affected by the AHFS while everyone else is, is completely indefensible.

In my opinion, they should have brought the cars in with realistic HP factors, and if they did not fit into Stock Eliminator classifications, then they should've gone straight to Super Stock, just like the old Hemi factory race cars. I'm not sure why showing how well someone can detune a car to keep from displaying its full potential is supposed to be good advertising for the "sell on Monday" crowd. The Hellcat rocked the automotive industry by claiming 707HP and 10-sec ET slips from a soon-to-be showroom available monster. Who would've given it a second glance if they came out and said, "This supercharged engine makes almost 426HP!"

Something I haven't seen mentioned is having 8-second cars competing against cars running 100 mph or less, typically without so much as a roll bar. I'll be honest, I'm kinda glad I haven't been running the Turismo. If a trans line or radiator hose comes loose and one of those 150 mph cars goes THROUGH me, I'm a dead man. Those cars should've been classified in Super Stock, in my opinion. Otherwise, realistically, they should start requiring a minimum of a roll bar in all classes.


In the interest of full disclosure, I run a 5.9L DragPak engine in my Volare (GT/HA). I built it specifically *because* it is ridiculously underfactored.


No, and that's already been articulated to the contrary by everyone. The vast majority of people in S/SS racing have more money and spend more money than I do. I'm more than happy to park next to toterhomes & stackers with my pickup and open trailer. The amount of money someone spent on a combination is completely irrelevant to how realistic the HP factor is. Compared to my old 360 Magnum crate motor, my fuel-injected 360 with more cam, more compression, aluminum cylinder heads and 1000cfm throttle body is rated 50HP less. It is as you would say, "not even close".

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I like the new cars.
However, I believe they were put into the wrong group 6 years ago. (as well as having a GROSSLY underrated h.p. number on paper)


In 2008-2009 there were not many of them around.

5 years later and there are plenty now to run in their own Eliminator category. ( F/X)


There was almost enough of those " VIN-Less" cars at Indy to run their own 64 car program.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

NHRA is following their own rulebook. Maybe, instead of being selective with your quotations from the rule book, you should share the whole section?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

^^ I agree.
I've often wondered what would happen if I got paired up with one of those 8 sec. "VIN-less" cars and I trap at 106 mph and he comes buzzing past me at 150 plus mph.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

How is that much different from an SS/P car running an SS/AH car?