Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Wayne has hit a ball out of the ball. Spec motor has saved stock car racing(stock car track outnumber drag racing track nearly 10 to 1) something to think about.Claude Ruel

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Spec heads will work.,sealed motors, or crate motors, not so much.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Part of the problem IS that two motors of different specs do not race heads up ANYTIME. With wt added or not.
For all the discussions of how new cars are too expensive, too fast, old vettes are wrongly factored everyone should seriously look at the fact NO on outside the front seat of your cars should have control of your HP, ets, etc but YOU the owner.
As it is run too fast with yours hard work and someone else kicks your rating up and you go slower, with less chance of winning. Then try to sell your over factored car you have worked so hard to make run..
When its same specs for all that is "the level playing field" we hear of....

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Works for me Dick. I'm just trying to include everyone. I'm for one wt. one lbs. per cube, heads-up. Maybe I'm trying too hard. My opinion is, if a ladder bar car gets beat because he doesn't have a 4 link, he"s real close to kicking your ***.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Ladder bar is a different matter versus 4 link... Some prefer the ease of Ladder bar.
I think it ought to be based on which classification the chassis is legal to run...If you are legal for SS but not Stk you run with them. If you are legal only for stock then you choose.
This is why I liked the NMCA Chevy Spec motor class. Think of 55 chevy jr stocker with the spec versus the later car with same spec and /b /cubic.
Crowd pleaser and cheap basic car (unless its a collecter car)

Watch what happens when you bring that on an open trailer.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Stock and Super Stock racing is not broken. No major changes need to be made

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Costs of racing are above the possible New racers.
Current cars are raced by people over 60 as average age.
Gas costs high for travel to meets.
Factory cars cost over $100K to start.

No one is proposing major changes. People mostly agree a start up class or entry level needs to take a new approach that makes it less costly, and more attractive to try..

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

You guys have to remember that back in the 60's and 70's a kid with a part time job after school could afford some level of a muscle car, put a set of slicks on and off to the track you would go. My brother bought a 70 340 Duster in 1970 for $2,750 out the door. A compairable car today is probably $40,000. A kid today can't afford those numbers. Also, I can remember when there were 2 dragstrips within a 1/2 hour of downtown Detroit, now there are none. Milan is the closest at about an hour away.
I think the high cost of a production muscle car and the closures of a lot of local dragstrips has hurt drag racing significantly.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

The open trailer point probably has some validity to it, as does the modern practice of keeping the cars in the pits at night rather than taking them back to the motel. I have so many great memories of watching nightly maintenence in motel parking lots at national events....I'm sure it added interest.

That being said, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. The instances of theft almost dictate an enclosed trailer anymore, if one does any traveling.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

You want more racers and more cars?

Include EVERYTHING the manufacture makes (release all spec's for all cars into the guide) and then have a class like pure stock with index's that are acheivable with gears and slicks. Then whatever you showed up at the track with (a guy showed up with a vette and asked if he could run the "stock" thing, had to say no because he could never make the index and spec's weren't available at the time I believe)

So, somebody shows up with an original street driven car, no he can't get to the index. But if he brings it with lower gear and maybe a converter, throws on slicks, he can play in the local stock/SS series hitting the index. (although just barely)

Once he plays and has fun he starts getting more serious and builds it into a crate motor car.

Then he ultimately builds it into a Stocker (possibly a SS eventually)

The build progresses with talent and $$.


(the ones who won't like this are the ones who might get beat in their $100,000 car by a "slicked" street driven car)

Edit: Forgot to mention that $$$ is the biggest issue to get into class racing mostly because there is only so much you can do then you must farm it out to the builders. The young guy that shells out $1500 for nos and slicks to go 13.00 in a jap car won't spend $2500 to go 14's in a domestic. Make it $750 to go 15's at the index and you might be suprised who "tries it".

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Down here in Div 2 we have 3 heads up classes that run at our points meets. 10-0 11-0, 12-0. No throttle stops allowed. Very low car counts for the past two years. I don't think heads up is the answer. Better promotion and more realistic purse money will bring the cars out. Michael Beard is a top notch racer and promoter so he could give the best advice for this topic. Listen to what he has to say.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Are you talking about
10, 11, and 12 lbs. per cubic inch, or 10, 11, and 12 seconds.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

It is a problem that cannot be fixed and here is why,

What was Drag racing originally, Heads up with with 1st to the finish line.

US nationals 1968 how many categories/classes raced 20?
All I believe were 1st to the finish line. 20 winners.

How many class race winner at Indy this year 200?

What changed, mostly money, those who spent the most usually won.

Everyone suggests a entry level class and different rules, These rules are already in place, Just run class eliminations, no bracket racing.

Unfortunately, car count will go down and we will go back to where we are today.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Yes they are 10, 11 and 12 second index cars. There also used to be some 5.50, 6.50 and 7.50 heads up index racing at the 1/8 mile tracks down here but I think that has all but dried up too.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

mike pearson, if the classes were based on seconds then there were break outs Right?They could "pedal"it at the end to win?

Rognelson: Class racing is wonderful if you have a one combo class. The minute someone finds a loop hole car or bogus motor end of story. I raced GT/AA for several years and it was great. Only two combinations were running and they were a coin flip on hp rating. Then Small block combination runnin1000 lb lighter same class. Then bogus Truck motor. Result several years of fewer equivalent cars to race for trophy.
IF one motor per class or based on lb per cubic inch same specs that is REAL class racing....
Also Class racing with current rules can be very expensive due to wild equipment and machining available.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Brodie spec. Same head flow, all 3 manufacturers.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Brodix, dang spell check.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Yes they could peddle it but both cars leave at the same time and run hard to the end. Not like the Super categories' that use the electronic throttle stops that bog at the start. plus with the 3 classes you fall into the one that is closest to your target number. They are definitely entry level classes. and heads up. The index thing just keeps the cost down. What you are talking about is heads up no break out. It could be done but the cost would be very high to be competitive. Look at comp or any other no break out class. Huge bucks. Just look at what happened to top stock. Good for a few years then the big buck guys killed the class and now its gone

I was watching the online coverage of one of the IHRA points meets earlier this year and from watching that coverage the most boring class was the SC dragsters. They are like watching paint dry. No wheels up action. They all look the same. The stupid throttle stop thing make it even worse. Drop the indexes on the super categories by a second and a half it might be a bit more interesting.

There is no cheap way to go class racing. I am not real fast but enjoy what I do.
It all boils down to the track operators promoting the show that they already have to put some butts in the stands. No matter what kind of class you have running if there is no promotion there will be no spectator interest. When is the last time you saw any type of advertisement for a local race of any sort. Not even a mention on the sports report on the local news unless something bad happens. Its not up to the racers to promote we provide the show.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Mike----I dont think that is the "heads up" Randy and the guys are looking for-----heads up is same rules both cars------- first man wins is what they are looking for.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

James, I LOVE YOUR COMMENT!!!!!!!!:D

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

All you "Heads Up" guys,take a look at the Dallas results on Drag Race Central.

Today,they ran Stock Class Eliminations.

Maybe 1 or 2 good races at most.Usually the fastest car is lifting early and still winning easily,and sometimes,the faster car even lets the slower car win.

You think "fans" want to watch this?

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Personally, I think the wide variety of cars in Stock and S/S is a big part of the appeal. I think a single combination would kill the class. If everybody had to race a 350/255 69 Camaro, do you really think that everybody with a different combo will just sell, scrap, or park their " not the chosen one" combination, and build a Camaro? Even if the only class was SS/AH, with 50 cars, all heads up, the stands would be empty at a National Event. I have watched almost every so called "fan" leave the bleachers as soon as Top Fuel and Nitro Funny Car finish their session. If they couldn`t be bothered to watch Pro Stock or the Alcohol classes, what are the odds they will care about "slow" 8 second Super Stock Hemis? Let alone small block Camaros.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

To each his own. No one I know of is trying to change anyone's class that I'm aware of. Just thought it would be interesting to have a heads-up class that is affordable. At the LOCAL level sanctioned by NHRA\IHRA.To all the naysayers that say it's impossible, limit the heads to spec policed by the manufacturer, and several other angles of thought to keep the cost down. And to the guys who say shut up and race your car. Other then Comp guys that have raced for 30 or more years, I've probably ran more heads-up, no break-out racing since 71 then most on this board. That's probably why I still beat the dead horse. It won't be a fan favorite at national events, but would create a local following.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Most racing series have entry level racing, what brought this to mind was AMA motorcycle race that I attended this past weekend. They have a class for 14 to 21 year olds. About 6 motorcycle brands and models are represented and must race on stock bikes. They must use stock wheels and brakes, they have 2 spec tire suppliers, have to run on a dyno after race to check that HP does not exceed predetermined horsepower.

I think key here is younger racers competing against each other on a heads up basis. (would it need a lot of work, yes but once it started moving ahead may prove fruitful)

Heck, allow them to put Harley motors on junior dragsters and race, .

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

442olds. Winner lifting is probably exactly what we are talking against. Bogus hp car in rt lane, Highly factored car in left lane....

If you could run any car you have currently, including the 69 Camaro with a spec motor and the motor was 1/3 the cost of yours today would you move to that class next time the motor crashes? would a 20-30 year of who wants to enter take his dads old stocker and join the racing? It is a family sport and that's shown by the JR. Dragsters but where do they move after that, 50K SS or Stockers?

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

I have to admit the most fun I've ever had racing was when I was active in the NMCA EFI classes in the late 90's. We ran 11, 12 and 13 second indexes on a 400 Pro tree with no transbrakes and had a blast.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Recently I had the opportunity to take my 2 nephews to the track for the first time, they are 11 and 14 years old. It was the Lucas Oil Canadian National open in Mission, we went on the Friday for the test and tune. It was a pretty decent turnout of competition and exhibition cars. We got to the stands by 8:45 am and sat there till noon, they were busy taking photo's, video and asking a whole lot of questions and were pretty excited. We took a lunch break and the youngest wanted to go see the Yellow Dart that wheelied (Shawn Blair SS/JA), he took a picture of it. We walked around and looked at some cars and then went back to the stands to continue watching, then Super Street came up followed by Super Gas. The oldest said "boring" and asked me how come they slow down and then go again? The youngest shaking his head said "they burnout good but don't wheelie and they slow down". The same general opinion of Super Comp. I'll admit it was the first time for me to sit in the stands and watch full sessions of each of these classes and it really was boring. The drive home was enjoyable listening to the highlights of their day. They convinced my sister to take them back on Saturday and stayed for the night qualifying and jet cars and tried to answer her questions about the cars that slow down. I think the whole "throttle stop thing" may have hurt the spectators expectations of the first 600 feet compared to every other class. MB.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

put the 3 tenths back on the index and the problem is solved. The classes will take care of it selves why did the index change anyway so the new cars could go fast? Remindes me of the NFL

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

This is supposed to be a drag race. Sure there are many cars under factored. Not only the new cars, but some older cars as well. Since dragging supposed to be a race, all those qualifying at the 1000 ft should be disqualified. NHRA use to have a sand bagging rule. Whatever happened to that rule? When was the race removed from drag racing?

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

The bottom line is money...even if you were to start with the most basic of basic operations...

Good used truck....10000
Open trailer....1500
Nice foot break car...10000
Spares...3500

If you wanted to start small I mean your average saturday night bracket buster combo your gonna spend at least 20/25K to get the ball rolling

All of the kids I grew up with junior racing the majority of us did a stint in a big car as we get older things like new homes, babies, careers, and most of all a lack of funding has caused a lot of us to walk away from the sport we love so much

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Is it possible that drag racing is, for the most part, simply a uni-generational sport fueled by the muscle car era?

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Yes!

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Bracket racing killed crowd appeal for drag racing. No other sport from volleyball to ultimate fighting makes the better man lose. Sorry, but that killed the spectator part of it.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

What combo did you run in GT/AA? How quick?

What is the "bogus Truck motor" combo?

What is the one single combo that should be the only one allowed in GT/AA?

What is the one single combo that should only be allowed in each of the other 25 GT classes?

What "wild equipment and machining" are you referring to?

Just trying to learn.......

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Well I can answer honestly fearing despite the fact I fear that the wording of the questions points to you thinking I think only one car should be legal for GT/AA or other GT classes.
I ran 454/425 hp at 3610 lb. My best winning time for class was 9.51 when all the cars were basically the same motors or the 454 oval port motors which ran very similar et.
This was class winning time my last year at Indy. This car could still race class but without much chance of winning.

454 low compression truck motor which was able to run 8.60s to 70s. That makes it seem bogus in factoring. Someone else might remember the hp rating. Smart find by the builder but points out the fallacy of using HP for classification in the long run.

I say no to a single combo in GT/AA question since that is not current rules but .... Might be helpful to make it so the racing does not involve another 30K motor every year and complete changes of combination to be able to compete.

25GT classes -Same answer.... Not current rules.....

Wild equipment and machining--- Honda rod bearings, oversided cams. Ported Heads and manifolds. Exotic materials....

Many successful racers love things the way they are. That is fine. I believe the rules should be simplified for ONE or two classes for growth of class racing. Aging racers points to need for entry level for new people who might not have parents currently involved.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

Bull!

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

This answers it perfectly.....and it is just not affordable for the people the sport needs the most now.....the younger generation....

It was always a challenge to afford racing even when I started in the mid 1960's......add a wife....a couple kids....a mortgage and family obligations and racing is done....

That is exactly why I stopped racing in 1971 .....

Things change and I was able to return to what I enjoy doing but it was never easy and not too many people would do what I did to make it happen...

It takes a commitment and dedication....and the youth of today have neither for this sport...

They would rather play with a smart phone which to me is the most useless activity ever dreamed up.......

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

At the risk of answering this under the influence of a bit too much Cuervo, the blind Zombies that are following Drag Racing are hurting Drag Racing.
Cut the number of National Events in half, increase the purses and build up a meaningful contingency program! Oh, and make Indy a 128 car field made up of Class Winners(no matter how many cars are in the Class or how fast they go) and filled with the fastest Qualifiers. See how many new cars get built overnight just to run Indy and see how interesting Racing can get again.

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

True billy

Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
 

I ain't slamming bracket racing. I'm just telling the truth. Go to your local bracket track, and count the spectators. Especially the ones not with cars. Then go to the local tractor pull, or roundy round race, and count the spectators. It is what it is. I remember Eddyville, and Bethany in the seventies. Class racing, standing room only. Eddyville went to bracket racing I believe in 1980, and have had rusty bleachers ever since. No one in the population understands it, or thinks you are actually trying to go faster then the other guy. Race whatever you want, but please have the decency to say it ain't spectator friendly.