Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Aren't you guys going to take time out to watch the GAME ...

Being an old guy I am hoping for the Denver defense so the old guy Manning can win but I suspect Carolina will prevail

See some of you at Pomona this coming week

Ron

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Mike, it looks like you have a lot of data from these events. If this data is available, Could you compare just the races that had less than a .500 handicap? The reason I ask this is any race that has more than a .500 handicap, the faster racer has the opportunity to leave late or never leave, because he can see the Red before the last yellow goes off, so that data is flawed.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Thanks for those kind words. I don't see a lot of them on these cyber-pages; You and Jim Wahl have been my inspiration for this crusade, but there is one thing I have not, apparently, made clear. This (TruStart) double red light system is in ~no way~ MY idea. I am just not that smart. I raced for years (after 1963, and the 'tree was instituted,) thinking everything was "fine" with no thought of changing anything. It wasn't until a bracket racing friend of mine (about 15 years ago) explained the inequity of giving the second car to leave, a free ride to the next round if the first car red lights, that I began to understand the inequities of what goes on at an NHRA track RE: the red light system. Unequal red light jeopardy...

I have a thick skin (and, some people would say, skull) having spent the last 25 years on BB's with varying degrees of rancor directed at me, so, not to worry... I'm fine...

I am just glad this is finally happening... I don't understand the inertia in getting it implemented "across-the-board," but I can wait a little longer... I've been waiting a long time........
This is a breath of fresh air!

Thanks for your comments!!!! :)

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

WOOOHOOO! Go Broncos!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I ran the stats for last year's Spring Fling at Bristol. 15 occurrences over 1178 pairs. (1.27%) Only one of those pairs had a handicap of more than half a second, so the redlight would typically be displayed by the time the slower car made it to the tree. That was a Box class, so both drivers are leaving off of the same bulb at the same time. These stats are consistent with what I found with three other events. As I stated in my previous stats post, the majority of the instances were handicaps of less than .500. Footbrake has a very slightly higher incident rate, and the handicaps are sometimes longer.

You can find stats on events at http://dragstory.com/forum/index.php Select a race, select a day/class, do a Find (Ctrl-f) on "-.", and it will highlight all of the redlights on the page.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Surprised some of you guys arent complaining when a car breaks out by more then another car, yet still loses. By your thought process on redlites the car that breaks out first should be the loser and not who breaks out the most. Yes, I dont have a s/ss number but I race where im the faster car and this new rule would possibly hurt me but I feel it levels the playing field a little.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

This isn't being proposed for Nhra/ihra correct? So why all the debate?

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

You are correct.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

As a long time, slow, Bracket racer recently turned to a slow class racer I would applaud the implementation of trustart. http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smile...use-597229.gif http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smile...use-597229.gif

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Of course you would!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

If they're gonna offer it, I'm gonna take it! Ya know, kinda like all of the aftermarket carbs,blocks and heads and replacement intakes that the "slow" guys don't get.
Here's an idea! NO red lights, NO win lights everybody races, everybody wins!
We all get trophys and Mommy takes us out for ice cream at the end of the day!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Never happen?
I dunno, when Biondo calls it adding fairness, and Brockmeyer implements it.....this may be a snowball rolling downhill

Bruce I admire your tangling with NHRA (how's that suit going?), and almost all your input, but claiming slower cars have an advantage driving the stripe?Come on, man!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I was never part of a lawsuit but have wrangled a bit with nhra. Time will tell on those matters. Maybe it's just me, after close to 20 years in slow cars, driving the stripe in an A car is more challenging than I thought it would be. Catching a car 20 feet from the stripe is a real nail biter.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I don't drive as well as most of you guys, but I sure prefer being the faster car at the stipe. Having an 8 second Candies or Cummings car suddenly show up down there is an "Oh Crap!" moment for me.
Seldom ends well for me. LOL

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

...and of course guys with faster cars would be against it...It's the American way.

I figure about a year before some of you guys have to get really fired up. So enjoy your 2016 season.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

If the faster car is leaving on the slow cars top bulb ,cross talk style,only difference being more delay in box, then the worst red lite rule should apply.Now if there was no cross-talk, then the worst red lite rule should not apply,simple isnt it.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

If they haven't brought in other Compulink features over years such as Autostart and CrossTalk, I can't see how they'd ever implement this.

Oh, wait. :(

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

The last time I checked Stock and Super Stock cars are not allowed or want to use delay style boxes. This is not meant as a dig, but for the sake of discussion in this forum it muddies the water. We leave off our side of the tree.

I have always been one of the slow cars, all I care about is whats going on in my lane. If I go red or cut a crappy light, sucks to be me!! This is what we all signed up for when paying the entry fee, take it or leave it. If this gets implemented across the board at divisional and national events, and we all know and understand the rules it's good. There's always going to be a fast car and a slow car. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.


Sean

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I'm not sure what you are talking about???????????

Could you please explain your statement....

Thanx,
Bob

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Mike crosstalk = .5 tree, how? Faster car leaves on slow cars light, why, is it a distraction for the faster car to leave second? How did that happen. Looks like crosstalk is a rule for the faster cars


I still believe in Valentin's Day. Class winners fill the first spots at Indy and the remaining spots in the 128 car field filled by the fastest qualifiers. Walking the knife edge with the rule book. I always get beat at my best. Tru Start no!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

That's correct. Before CrossTalk, drivers of the faster car could still leave off their opponent's top bulb, but had to look across the tree to the other lane's top bulb, and some drivers complained that the angle of the bulb made it difficult for the to crossover. Either that, or if they weren't crossing over, they had to deal with the distraction of the opponent's top light coming on just before their own.

In delay box classes running CrossTalk, both top bulbs light simultaneously. The slower car's tree comes down normal. The faster car's top bulb stays lit for the time difference between the dial-ins. With a crossover delay box, you enter BOTH dial-ins, and your standard delay. The box does the math and adds the additional delay if you're the faster car.

Try footbraking in a Box class! On rare occasions, I've had to chase somebody. After being CrossTalked a couple of times, I learned that I was .040-.045 like clockwork every time my top bulb was "hanging". (I don't block the tree) The last time it happened, I took a couple of extra bumps, stood on the converter, and stabbed it to come up .001. Ended up winning that day. :)

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Sorry I was bored and should have re-read my statement as it didn't make sense to me.
What I was getting at is the people complaining about worst red light rule should probably be complaining about worst break out rule also. Worst break out rule applies at finish line so why doesn't worst red light work on starting line? Both parts of track are very important in winning.
First to go red loses, so first to breakout should be the loser using the current red light theory.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

OK.................

I get it now.......

Worst break out = worst red light and both = a loss..............

Thanx,
Bob

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

4444 Norman Marsden 791 Adam Emmer E4 -0.002 10.333 127.08 -0.007 10.140 131.13 SS/KA
This is 4th round in super stock. If truestart was in effect the outcome would be reversed.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Don Keen also fell to Abe Loewen in round 1 of SS, although Loewen's red was worse.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

The one NHRA Class I can see affected the most would be Comp Eliminator.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

If I am spotting a slower car, and catch a glimpse of their red light, I just leave. I'm not sitting there on the 2 step for nothing. I win, I'll go down there and practice putting a couple of feet on them at the stripe. My red will most always be worse than theirs. Depending on the handicap as to how much. I'm not the only one that does that. It may not reverse as many losses as some say. Since I normally leave first, I would still be in favor. I think if the red light display were delayed it would put an end to that. The worst red light rule, with the red light display delayed until after the second car leaves could not hurt a thing. Probably more fair. Guys with eight second cars may not be in favor for obvious reasons. Can't really argue it would not be fair, IMHO.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Handicap racing is a "PERFORMANCE ORIENTED SPORT" ???? Really.....?
We know why it's been this was for years, they didn't have any wat to correct it ... NOW WE DO !!
I think a letter writing campaign to Peter Clifford is in order to get this CHANGED !
Discussing it here is doing nothing .......

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

If it ain't broke don't fix it!!! Leave ''class racing'' alone.


If the bracket folks want, crosstalk, delay boxes, sand boxes, down tack boxes, gps, trustart, air shifters, and the rest, have fun.


If you want to class race get a rule book and build or buy something, you will be glad you did.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Yeah, that will get results for sure! Clifford is even more insulated than Compton, if that is imaginable. All he wants from the Sportsman racer is absolute silence. In fact, he would like us to be invisible but the pesky little non profit status prevents that from happening. And the very last thing he wants is a sordid little red light controversy.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

That's the thing; it's always been "broke" and now the technology exists to fix it.

The "worse" infraction loses in all other dual-infraction scenarios. When infractions are equal, only then does the first violation lose.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

In your classes S/ST and S/C the first red light is the worst red light. Congrats on the 51# in S/ST

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

It's Valentines Day, Happy V Day to the Hill family,....If it ain't broke don't fix it !!! This is a very ironic quote from a racer with aftermarket alum heads and a racer with Penmanship skills only second to Mark Twain.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I just read and try to understand the rule book. The hard part is getting in the windows that NHRA provides. I don't possess the skills of a Mark Twain, but always try to have a sense of humor. The heads I had nothing to do with, I just bought a set after the heads were available. Now back to the thread.


Trustart will be a good bracket aid, it has no place in NHRA Championship Racing. "You cant win Indy if you don't qualify" ; performance based racing you got to love it!

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Hi Lary,

I was trying to figure out if you don't understand what TruStart is or you don't want to look at the benefits of it to HANDICAP START sportsman racing......

Of cause .90 classes have the first is the worst as far as red light starts the same as Pro Stock, Top Fuel & Funny Car because they all run HEADS UP....

For them the FIRST is always the WORST.....

I understand that with a transmission change you qualified #1 at the 50th & 60th US Nationals and I applaud your ability to read and interpret the Rule Book & Classification Guide......

But TrueStart is not a Rule Book or Classification issue, the issue is how we look at our fellow competitors and if we want to fair to them or do we want an unfair advantage for some.

As for the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", that is an illusion that racers use to gain an unfair advantage over their fellow competitors.

With that said I again congratulate you for your performances at the US Nationals..

Bob

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

I totally agree with both points you made in your post. In fact I just took severe heat in the roller lifter issue in stock thread and was practically blamed for all of the parts that became approved along the way for the 396/375- as if 401 head aluminum head, roller rockers, unlimited cam duration, any valve spring configuration, etc., were issues that I had something to do with- when I had absolutely nothing to do with any of it.

Like you I just use the parts allowed by the rules and have never given or been asked by anyone at NHRA for my opinion. They make the rules and he rest of us follow them. Now back to the thread.

True start may have a place in bracket racing but NHRA Stock and SS Eliminators is not the venue for it in my opinion.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

MK. Larry Hill,
Please explain your reasoning on this issue.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

It was the same drive line @ the 40th also. I believe I hold an advantage in the truck with clean tree and the sound it makes on the line is just short of annoying. The spot is big enough that lots of times the truck is the background for the tree when the lights come down for the faster car. Its a little hard to dial in the wind. If I red light first I have four chances to win, them crossing the center line or hitting the wall, them being lite at the scales when the racer drains to much water out of the cooling system A.K.A. "the D-6 trick", or failing fuel check. If all that fails to get me to the next round I lost. That how the game is played and I know the rules, I think.


I like to practice at the bracket tracks them boys always teach me hard lessons.

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

But what about those D6 Diving Trunks ??

Re: TruSTART looks to level the playing field.
 

Sorry Larry but the four chances you have to lose have nothing to do with a faster or slower car or if this is changed. Anybody can cross the line/hit the wall/be light/fail fuel. That's a straw man argument the same as comparing to a heads up class.

Either you have heads up racing or you have handicap racing. If you have handicap racing then the inherent differences in vehicles (one will travel faster/quicker than the other, one will have a bigger chance of spinning, etc, etc) is stuff that is inherent and can't be changed. Stuff that should be equal for all cars is they must pass fuel/must weigh correct/either hits the wall they are out/either crosses the line they are out/Worst breakout between the cars loses/worst red light between the cars loses.

Slow guys complaining that faster cars see the stripe better or fast guys saying slow guys get a clean tree are inherent in the fact that one car is leaving before the other, it is not changeable. But first red light or first break out, first to fail fuel (ooh, you pulled ahead of me and we both failed fuel but since you checked first I win????) these things are not right.

Bracket or whatever, this should of been changed years ago. (imho)