Re: Stockers....buttons.....check This Out
 

How about If NHRA allowed Deep staging again but not holding the tree for them. It's there job to be in and if they are not oh well. Let's leave the 2 step alone, and allow deep staging, will that keep the crybabies happy?

Todd Hoven
1035 NHRA Stk

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Thx. Todd and Michael.

Tim G, thankyou as well but I must explain my racing philosophy, this not directed towards you only but contains to the 2-step and button issue.
Racecars are nothing but a tool that we use in a contest between ourselves to negate 1320' as accuratly and consistently as we can. Truth be known, what the heck are we using cars for, this is like bringing a knife to a gun fight! To define the correct tool for the job it would be one that doesn't spin the tires, is not reliant on weather or changing of any conditions, ie. tire pessure, timing, gear ratios, track prep, tune-up, etc. etc. and have no human input.
Because we use these ill equipped tools, (we do drag race cars and not robots) it's in our best interest to prepare our tools to complete the job the same everytime to the best of our knowledge and skill. If you think about it, it's not very easy with all of the scientific variables out there. Now the contest, this is where the human factor counts and because we are human you'll never, never get the same result twice just like in any other contest whether it's a board game or an athletic sport. We try to do our best and as always, there are people that are better at it than others. Drag racing is something that you don't want to be perfect at every time, .000 on the tree and dead-on with a zero is not how to keep winning rounds one after the other. It's more like 'he who screws up the least, wins'

OK, your probably wondering about this rant.

We race and win/lose using thousands of a second to decide the contest. We all know that our starting line parameters (there are a ton of em) are important. A couple of the most critical are stall RPM and accuracy leaving the last yellow. This is why most racers have gone to two steps and hand operated buttons (just as it's allowed in the rules). Pedal mounted buttons have been found to be inconsistent just as true footbraking can be. A lot of drivers prefer to footbrake and manually stall their cars and there are some very good ones out there, can't take anything away from them and it's a personal choice, just like the car combo choice you made as to what tool you'll bring to the contest. Therefore, 2-steps and buttons have been used to limit some variables and have helped a lot of mediocre racers get better at the job, who has a problem with that. We've also seen how the LED's have helped but there will always be the human factor in the equation to level the playing field and decide who wins or loses each contest.

Thx. B

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""" will guarantee you that Tim would not have won nearly as many races with the Cavalier without deep staging."""
__________________________________________________ ______________

mike,,I can say will almost certainy, that the only race IVe ever won footing was one about 5 or 6 years ago,,,,went to a dump in tn and after time runs was notified that I couldnt deepstage,,,,,got lucky anyway,,,but thats the only race in anything Ive have ever won WITHOUT deepstaging in any footer car,,,,,


I guess when I got interested in stock years back, I really thought it was a pure class,,,,where the cars were kept as close to stock as possible without the aid of the modern day electronics,,,,,Ive just come to realize that the local brackets have less electronics than a stock class........Hope they change them BUT if they dont....as bad as I hate it,,,guess I need to get with the program

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Hey Todd Top Fuel And Funny Car Can Go Deep But A 13 Second Stocker Can't??? Does This Make Sense??

Joe Mocci

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Very well-put post, Bernie, and a good explanation of the how's and why's.

Really, the only place where we differ in opinion is whether the statement "2-steps and buttons have been used to limit some variables" is a good thing or a bad thing for the long term in our sport. I think it puts my view in a nutshell -- I enjoy learning, driving, and overcoming the challenges of our sport without an electronic variable-limiting aid.

Two guys this year have won track championships in delay box categories, off the foot: Billy Kirpins, Jr. at Lebanon Valley, and Chris Plott at Mooresville (who won Stock in his one and only attempt at it last year). I used to hoof it in Super Pro now and then. I think I may go try it again next year.

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Michael and tgriffith, since you guys are the most vocal on this subject I will direct my question to both of you.

So much has be said on this subject that it has become a little clouded to me.

What is the reason you do not want buttons and 2 steps in stock.
1: You want stock to be a no electronics class
2: You want NHRA to be able to control possible cheating.
3: You want stock to return to what stock was intended to be.

You guys know how I feel about the issue, I want it to stay the same.
The poll suggests that most want some type of 2 step to be used. I say there is not enough consensus to change the rule. I know its only a small sample, but they are current racers and you can only vote once.

Please just give a simple answer, the long posts seem to go off topic.

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They way my season is going, I just assume get rid of all that stuff, but I wanna keep trying with it.The only thing I haven't done this season is stage with my back tires. Is it possible to have a button on the brake pedal, and not engage it while going down the track, while riding the brake pedal?. That would kinda mess things up.

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The two steps are also used to scrub off closing speeds in fast cars. More reliable than lifting. Been there done that. Sounds like a gunfight.

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All of the above.

I agree.

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Robert all you need to do is run the button thru another switch that opens after the car is launched. It could be a shifter mounted switch if your shifter moves..... as far as buttons and 2 steps go.....I don't use any of this stuff in my present stocker and am just finding a comfort zone after about 50 runs off the footbrake in my LT-I. I lost last weekend with an 010 Rt on a double breakout. I really don't care how you launch your Stocker...... Just so long as your leaving off the bottom bulb and that's my only concern on this one.

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Kenny,

,my reasoning is reason # 1 and partially #3,,,,,,,I understand that there has to be progress in the classes to keep up with late model cars coming in,,,,the class cant be full of 67 camaro`s,,,,maybe liteweight brakes are needed for the speeds A/SA cars are running,,,,maybe E shifts are OK because afterall,,,I think all automatics shifted themselves anyway,,,,,,, Im not against modernization,,,,IM not a person that believes the class should just be made up of 69 camaros but a full field of different combos,,,,,IMO,,thats what gives stock it own character,,,,you can see a wheel standing firebreathing A/FIA firebird chase down a front wheel drive cavalier,,,,and no mattter which wins,,,BOTH has the same opportunity to turn on the win lite,(as far as rules are concerned),,,,,,,,,But the 2 steps and adjustable buttons (IMO) doesnt fit in this category and have turned stock into a fast car class only(if you really want to win),,,IMO,,they give the faster cars a large ADJUSTABLE advantage

Im passionate about the preservation ,( as much as possible), in keeping stock from turning into another electronically ruined class,,,,but this is my opinion,,,,and Im probably in the minority

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Fair enough Michael and tgriffith.

If anyone is interested in the Class Racer poll on buttons and 2 steps, click on the link below.
http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=7002

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TG - sad to say, but even I realize that if I had a faster car, my round win% would go up. When chasing, I typically drive the stripe into .010. When being chased, I've been taking around .030. How much is having .02 in the bank worth? I've had 4-5 rounds this year that I feel 98% certain that I would've won if I were chasing instead of being chased. If I had the money to make the initial investment in the first place, I'd probably do it, but I'm trying to get out of debt before I come up with anymore 'projects'. (Just another good reason to start hoofin' it in the Box class again... need to improve my 'vs. fast car' program)

People realize this, so I don't think anything is going to stop the progression toward faster cars. (refer to the trend in fast Footbrake cars) The only thing that might slow it down is when the upper classes get 'too' full, and they start running into more heads-up runs. Tim's point is that 2-steps make that transition that much easier.

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Two steps were designed originally to control starting line rpm for stick cars and then later trans brake cars. In the last few years stock racers having been using them along with the buttons that release them to initiate movement of their cars off the starting line, much like a super stocker with a trans brake. You let go of a button and the car leaves. I don't think that should be allowed in stock eliminator. There's no question that letting go of a button is more consistent that letting go of a brake pedal. If you don't believe me try it on your practice tree both ways.

I really don't have a problem with the two step on the brake pedal because then it becomes what it was intended to be which is an rpm limiting device. Trans brakes delay boxes and adjustable buttons have no place in stock eliminator. Automatic cars should leave when you take your foot off the brake pedal unless your'e handicapped and then I would be all for a device to allow the driver to leave with a hand control. Stick cars even with a two step still have to let go of the clutch. Those of you who would say that you still have to let go of the brake pedal know better, if your right foot is on the floor and you let go of a button your car is going to leave and your foot is going to come off the brake pedal.

And last but not least I think this would make for better and more fair racing and I agree the very best racers are going to win more than their fair share but I truly think you would have more different winners in a year than you do now. One more thing, don't forget footbrake races are becoming huge all over the country and electronic racing is flat at best.

Greg

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Chip,
I stand corrected. I owned / raced the car from 1978-1982 approximately. Perhaps the reaction times were in the later part of ownership not the earliest. I started racing in '78 but can't recall when r/t's were first in use, it was definetly in that time period. Also, keep in mind those killer r/t's had something to do w/ the old style bulbs that you could "read" as well as deep staging, a practice that is total BS that it is not allowed in some classes today. I always have contended that NHRA stated in the "how too" section at the front of each annual rule book that the start line was the most important aspect of racing and the greatest skill a racer could develop; or words to that effect, and NHRA stepped on our dicks when they eliminated that practice. I saw a recent post from TGriffith with one viable explanation I had not considered. That is the "flash" racer's did not appreciate the distraction of the opponent's top bulb being knocked out. I say "so what".
Personally, I think a racer should be able to deep stage or even use a forward / reverse / forward motion to stage as long as it is in the time allowable (i.e., you play around you may get burned by the starter). I have no problem with buttons per say, just those that allow delay by use of a button that is not "automotive type" as written in the rule book. Also, per the rule book, nothing is to be added to the windshield so that means no blinders attached to the windshield. I could care less if a visor or even extended visor is used as long as a safe item for the interior.
So in conclusion, let racer's leave the line on their own accord just enforce the rules about delay devices. Now if NHRA is unwilling or unable to check said items, then I say eliminate them.

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In a word....NO lol. There will always be those that will worry more about what the other guy is doing more than concentrating on what they're doing instead.

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jeff ,,it was told that a few racers were double bulbing,,bump to deep and then notch back to turn the top lite back on,,,,only needing one bump to go deep,,,,,as their opponent would get staged and hit the 2 step,,,the deeper would thne knock out his top lite as the tree was starting to come on,,, distracting other guy,,,,,,I guess the wrong guy got distracted and then it got tossed,,,,,,,,,,Whether thats true or not,,,dont know???? I guess I can certainly see how a few bad apples can ruin anything.....again,,,dont know if thats true BUT sound like a reasonable explaination....One could say,,dont stage until your opponent gets deep,,,got to be very carefull,,,,once 3 lites are on,,,,autostart is counting,,,,, a racer trying to be a sportsman and let the other guy get deep,,,would get counted out for being nice,,,,,and the sad part is,,,the guy deepstaging knows it


But I do know this,,,It works cause a few of the northern racers were trying that BS around here in s/pro,,,,and yes they waltzed thru the classes, cheap shoting racers ,,,,,so alot of the tracks in the carolina`s banned deepstaging in S/pro,,,,,I know its a little different looking at the 3rd rather than the 1st,,but unless the whole tree is blinded,,,,its the same momentary distraction


Todd,,call me a crybaby all you want,,,,if it makes you feel more of a person to sling names,,dont bother me any,,,just remember,,,if it wasnt for people like a few of us crying,,,the class would be full of delay boxes,,,,,which as a personal opinion,,,I favor,,if the 2steps/ buttons stay,,,,Im with a few others on this,,,,either all or nothing,,,,no fence riding here,,,,,I look at it like this,,,,for $200,,,a pinto would be just as deadly on reaction times as any car out there,,,EVERY pass

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As a former stock eliminator racer (1979 - 1989) and avid enthusiast since the sixties I implore you guys to ban buttons and 2 steps from the eliminator. Stock eliminator is the purest form of drag racing and obviously the grass roots of the sport. Why would we want to corrupt the integrity of the eliminator any further than has been already?
Progress and technology are great, but is there something wrong with preserving something that means so much to so many people? Is there something fundamentally wrong with foot brake racing without electronics?
Just my 2 cents.

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greg hill (div 3 points leader)... are you using a button this year or that big pedal in the middle ??

just curious... jack

cuase youve been driving great :)

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If two steps are such an advantage just put one in your car and you will not be at a disadvantage.

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Jack I foot brake. I just never liked driving with a two step.

Greg

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How do you vote on the poll that is on Kenny
iele's reply about two steps?

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Yea, I couldn't vote either

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My vote is for no two-steps and or hand buttons in Stock Eliminator. If you wanna run electronics, run one of the super classes that NHRA has set up for you.

With do respect, my guess is that NHRA Tech is 5 to maybe 10 years behind in electronics. Without that technical expertise, I feel, in fairness to all competitors, they should either Ban Electronics from Stock, or allow any and everything ; Delay boxes, Crossovers, Adjustable buttons, Event Timers, anything goes. - ALL or NOTHING, that's the only fair decision.

To the person(s) reference to "Deep Staging" in the Nitro classes and not the Sportsman Classes; There are no electronic devises, no air devises, hydraulic devises, or any devises allow to be attached to the drivers controls in a fuel car. The forward motion of the car must be a function of the drivers feet. Maybe if that were the rule in stock, deep staging would be ok?

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They took away deep-staging before buttons were a big issue...They were around but nobody cared.

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hey jim ,

if it was my choice button or going deep i would take deep anyday.just because the majority of racers did not deep stage i guess it was an easy decision to stop it.so what happens if you have the $$$$ you build an ab or c car and don't worry about jumping on it as you would in 12.0 or slower car.give the slower car a chance and at least let us stage DEEP


JOE MOCCI

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I personnally don't have a problem with deep staging. Shirley Muldowney Deep Staged everytime she raced me. I guess it's a female thing !!!!???

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My vote is to leave it just the way it is.Any button mounted anywhere.