Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I agree Billy 10000000000000000%

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Casey,
Nothing personal, but you're making several choices to render yourself less than competitive, and asking everyone else to accommodate you. And you're complaining about other combinations.


Time doesn't stand still for any of us, and progress doesn't stop for any of us, either.



Honestly, who has been racing an original Z-28 (and the most rare of them) longer than Dave and Ben? And they're pretty competitive. A small journal crank and rods aren't worth that much in ET. Brian Rogers goes fairly quick with a 69 Z-28, and there are few people more low buck than he is.



You're flat out saying "I CHOOSE not to be competitive" and then saying "I want HP added to the other guys" and finally "I want all of the class held back to let me keep up".


We ALL got the enhancements, whether we wanted them or not. And I've argued against several of them. I wouldn't complain if the rules were turned back about 30 years or so, actually.



I'm not even arguing for lower the indexes.



With all due respect, that ain't racing. Sorry if you're "taken back", but facts are facts.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Yeah, Billy, but those ain't the rules anymore. Whether any of us like it or not. How "Stock" it is doesn't matter anymore. They ain't turning back time, or rolling back the rules. It is what it is. If you want to race, and go fast, you keep up with the rules, whether you like them or not. If you choose to refuse to keep up with the rules, you pretty much can't complain if you can't be competitive.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I wasn't questioning that. As Alan has stated, if you aren't running by the current rulebook, you are leaving performance on the table.

When I started running Stock things were much "stocker". I liked it better back then. For one, it was way cheaper!

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Alan, I know what Casey's doing. And I can see both sides of this discussion. You're right, he's not competing, but at the same time you can't fault a man for having an emotional attachment to his car. He's doing the best that he can with what he's got.

Now about "if the rules were turned back about 30 years or so", the only rule that we need to turn back would be the valve spring rule. And we really don't need to go back to the original valve springs. I think that 160 on the seat for a conventional cam placement and 110 for an OHC would bring everything back to reality in a hurry. And I think that even the Millennial Tech guys could use a valve spring tester, quick and easy right after fuel check.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I didn't think that you were.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I'm not faulting anyone. I don't have a thing against Casey. I'm just saying that he is making his choices to not be competitive. It's just plain completely unrealistic to even bother to complain about the HP factor of other cars, or the indexes, or to be offended by any of it, if you choose not to be competitive.


We can all wish for a lot of things. But if you want to race, you have to deal with reality.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I said it back several post ago. Stock is just a name that are class has. The real Stock left the building years ago. It reminds me of a saying we had at the Fire Dept. Lead follow or get left behind. Casey hydraulic lifters haven't been real hydraulic lifters for a long long time. We shimmed are lifters back in the 70's. There was no gain in HP using solids. My car came with solids my brother still uses hydraulics. Barry

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

I understand stock is no longer stock, and nhra ihas allowied the class to become modified product cars with something that resembles a stock car.
As far as hydraulic lifters, if there was no power gain why were they schimmed to act like solid lifters and now that they have to have only .010 movement it doesn't change the performance of an engine over a standard factory hydraulic? The valve lash was then built in to the lifters versus adjusting at the valve.

Nhra doesn't want to do their jobs that we "all" pay for, police the cars and HP factoring. That's what it comes down to.

Because someones car doesn't perform like other people's cars doesn't mean that they don't work hard at their combo.

BTW, the Chevy 302 is factored to 309 HP, that's 1.023 Hp per cubic inch. How many hydraulic lifter engines are even close to that?

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

How many of them have 11.0:1 compression, 2.02"/1.60" valves, 0.485"/0.485" lift, a high rise aluminum intake, and a 750 carburetor on a 302 cubic inch engine? Or the RPM capability of that combination? The Wentzels are fast, Duzac and Peterson are fast, Brian Rogers is pretty quick, too.


It's cool that you race an icon, and one you've had for a long time.


But the rules are the rules, and NHRA is what it is.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Hey Casey, please stop. This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is starting to seem like whining.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

[QUOTE=Alan Roehrich;568656]How many of them have 11.0:1 compression, 2.02"/1.60" valves, 0.485"/0.485" lift, a high rise aluminum intake, and a 750 carburetor on a 302 cubic inch engine? Or the RPM capability of that combination?


Sounds a lot like an IHRA Crate Motor combination to me!.. sorry... I couldn't resist!

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

[QUOTE=Casey Miles;

Nhra doesn't want to do their jobs that we "all" pay for, police the cars and HP factoring. That's what it comes down to.

This is what it ALL boils down to. Its the bottom $$$$$$$$ line that counts for NHRA. I guess your lucky the NHRA does what little inspection they do at INDY.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

While I'm in a "Good" mood and this really doesn't have anything to do with stock or S/S what do you guys and gals think about NHRA adding the MOUNTAIN MOTORS to the Pro stock program for 2019 and still retaining the 500 inch combos to run together. Carbs are optional on the big engines or FI and I assume a wt. allowance will be added to even things out. Just curious !

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Terry, sounds like a good subject for it's own thread.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Pro Stock is dead and the plug will soon be pulled, replaced by FSS

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

The NHRA better take a good look at the 9 inch tire rule in FS/XX. A guy named Walsh just crashed his Dodge Challenger at the NMCA/NMRA race over the weekend. I think that they make to much power to use the smaller tire. When I find out more I will start a new thread Billy. I just wondered if anyone had seen this deal on Pro stock. Have fun everyone.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Newsflash...drag racing is dangerous.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

In my opinion once you change that tire rule and go to a bigger tire, it will slowly start changing the class to cater to mutimillion dollar teams to dominate it. The 9" tire rule levels the playing field to rely on chassis, tuneup, and horsepower to get down the track. Once you give them more tire, I think smaller teams will become less and less competetive.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

And what would be cooler than 40+ FSS/Pro stock cars trying to qualify again.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Have you watched the video?

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

looks like he was left of the groove and car did not launch straight drifted left at the hit---watched it several times --FED 387

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Exactly, he was out of the groove

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

After reading thru all this.
change AHFS
separate factory showdown cars
drop the index
add to the index
tear down if under 1.20 index
spot check if under 1.00 index
and a bunch more I don't understand why any of it even matters other then qualifying it is nothing more then a bracket race and why does any of it matter if you are faster slower newer older you put in your dial and get as close as you can. Everyone is striving to go faster but it is harder to win in a faster car then a slower car, traction problems on faster cars harder to judge the line and there is more to the slower car being more consistent. So everyone wants to Qualify well top 10 or better WHY other then ego what is the difference if you go 1 second under your index and run someone a half second under there index faster slower makes no difference when you dial. Please tell me where I am wrong I am usually right at the top of qualifying with lowest et highest mph how does that help me at all, other then ego. I keep reading the factory showdown cars are to fast it is not fair they should be in there own group WHY what is there advantage. Is it not just a bracket race and what does a great qualifying position do to help? I really don't understand all different suggestions in this thread someone please explain.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Hey! I'm coming. Don't change anything I haven't finished the car yet. I already made expensive changes because it's taking me forever to build a new car from scratch while still working and raising the kids. I probably won't be able to finish it until I retire in a couple of years, so I vote no changes. By the way I'm coming over from Super Gas where I spent money to slow the car down.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Me too... well I wouldn't complain if there were more heads up races.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Joe Welch
life's been good to Joe Walsh

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

So far....

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Yes and I watched it when it happened from the live broadcast. I guess the "GROOVE" just wasn't wide enough ! It will happen again to someone !

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Please don't completely go off the rails on this one..

This is from a relatively newbie to the class (2009) before the AFHS how were the HP numbers regulated to keep things fair? If a guy went 1.3 under what happened? How were combos adjusted as to not allow one guys to find a super soft combo an out run everybody for eternity?

I for one agree the AFHS is very problematic and easily manipulated to maintain your combos competitiveness for class. It's also a stupid system that only punishes those who have found the most HP in their car. So it basically discourages us all from working to get faster and faster cause we we'll all then have to slow our stuff down so we don't have to add weight. I'm sure it hasn't been this way forever, but I haven't been involved long enough to know how it used to be...

I for one am all for something like this..

"Do away with the AHFS and Indexes as we know them.
All non-competitive combos get 15-20% HP reduction immediately.
At Indy, all Class Winners automatically qualify for the field, the rest of the 128 cars are furthest under the RECORD.
Class Winning ET BECOMES the RECORD. If no-one in Class, then previous record stands.
Following season (starting at the WinterNationals), the RECORD becomes the INDEX. The RECORD stands for 1 season (Winters to World Finals) but is set every year at Indy.
Anyone running under the RECORD at any NHRA sanctioned Event during the course of the year is subject to immediate tear-down AND HP hit."

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Lined up crooked and front wheels turned when it came off a wheelie resulting in a crash has little to do with the 9" tire. It was hooked up and on the bars even out of the groove.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

As bad as it is, the AHFS is much better than the system that we had. Under the old system, you were basically handed out 5 and 10 HP gifts by the NHRA inspectors whenever it was deemed necessary with no real system in place other that who went fast when and who your buddies were. But you also have to remember that the handicaps were figured off of the National Records and if you won but went a tenth under the Record, you lost. So it was still break-out racing.
My biggest issue with the AHFS is that the numbers can be manipulated too easily.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

What you're suggesting is just untenable.


Who decides what is "uncompetitive"? Because there's a lot of stuff out there that is being seriously sandbagged.


At Indy, you'd be rewarding people for searching for a single for class and avoiding a race.


And if you void the indexes, and run off records, what do you do where there's a "class minimum" instead of a record?


Who is going to tear down and tech all of these newly minted record holders?



If you start qualifying and racing off the record, your field will shrink dramatically, and rapidly.




Sorry, what you're suggesting just isn't viable, from the racers' side, or from NHRA's side.




Again, the simple solution, that doesn't keep anyone from qualifying because they can't run under a new indexes, is to leave the indexes alone. Just adjust at least the review trigger in the AHFS to a combination average of 1.00 under.


If you really wanted to increase performance as a factor, again, without reducing the indexes so that some who can currently qualify couldn't, is to start paying real money and real points for qualifying and for class eliminations.For those chasing money and championships, they're going to step up their performance, and maybe even move to a class with a few more cars. This will also drive the AHFS to correct combinations that are way soft, because people are going to try to take advantage of those in order to collect points and dollars.


By doing that, you substantially change only qualifying and class eliminations, while leaving regular eliminations changed only by the impact of a few people adjusting their class to score points and/or money. So people not able to run very far under still get to participate, they can qualify, and they can run the "dial in" eliminations.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Ya know, the biggest trouble with Stock Eliminator and Drag Racing in general is, at some point within the last 15 or 20 years, it stopped being a sport and started being a hobby!

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

A very good point is to give something for qualifying position, money, points towards something it would help with the sand bagging and give racers a reason to keep there cars as fast as they could be and it would improve the show overall.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

You start giving points for qualifying, I bet things would get interesting very quickly. Maybe 10 points for #1 down to 1 point for #10. Also, maybe a one time per year 10 points for a national record.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Now things are starting to make sense at least for qualifying but how does all these ideas have anything to do with just dialing your number and trying to run it if you qualified 1.1 under or .25 under . It makes no difference.

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

The reason I posted that all in Italics was that it was quoted from a previous post.. I also agree there are some problems with the ideas in terms of logistically making it happen but the premise still stands AFHS is broken and maybe instead of minor changes like we have seen over the past 10-15 year, that have essentially amounted to nothing in terms of eliminating the problem, aren't working... Maybe we need to present and entirely new system and work with the powers at be to make it happen.. Maybe the AFHS can work if implemented in a completely different fashion.

Also, if you were running off the record the rule of dialing index would have to be revisited.. The record is the record for a reason.. its the fasted car in class at Indy(in the suggested changed) that means all but 1 guy that year can't run the index.. obviously requiring us to dial under the index at that point wouldn't work..

I've argued in the past that qualifying points would work.. I agree it will work to a point. More people would run harder to get those points.. but it would have to be a substantial amount of points or it wont change anything.. no one is going to blast their combo for 10 points one time to finish 250th in the points.. It's gotta be monetary to the point people could take that money and invest it in making up for the HP they just added to their combo..

Re: Wondering what stock racers think
 

Well, I'm thinking 20 points for #1 down to maybe 2 points for #10, and $250 for #1, down to $50 for #5.


Twenty points per round for class, and $250 for a win (plus contingencies).


Two hundred points and $500 for a record, but you can only get it once per year. If you get performance into it on that level, and some publicity, you can pay contingency there, too, and/or get the sponsors to sweeten the purse.


If you start making performance pay in points and money, it drives parts sales, and that's going to get sponsors involved. They're going to want their decals on class winners and record holders, they're going to want pictures to advertise with, and performance to brag about. They'll probably be willing to support class eliminations at more, if not all national events, and possibly at division races. If you can make racers spend money to go fast, you can make sponsors pay for it, you just have to promote it.