Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

If you wanna have the Big Three factory Wars, then let the Big Three battle it out. Don't try to settle the war with well fair from the NHRA board room. Let the factories/engineers, with feedback from their racers, develop new parts and get them approved. Then supply the parts to all the racers. If they don't wanna do it, then it must be ok for their sales to run second or third.... Funny how no one said a word when Turk was basically going it alone, and barely making the show.....

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Yawn...




pS

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Really? So all I need to do to be competitive with Don Schumacher Racing is choose to tow my $150,000 Stocker with an old pickup truck, on an open trailer? Cool; I thought there was much more to it than that.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Nope. Even the proof of concept had an LSX block.

Hint: They are powder coated red. ; )

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

I hope that this is a poor attempt at sarcasm otherwise it's just a foolish statement.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

You need to go back and read your own post. You clearly stated that people spending money on the new cars were impacting Stock and Super Stock. I have already shown several times that you can run a new factory car in both classes for way less than a nice new motor home.

For Factory Stock it would have to be a higher end motor home!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The problem is defining 'welfare' and who you think is getting it. Is it the cars benefiting from the weight adjustments, the manufacturers allowed to run non-production combinations, or ??????

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Can’t we all just get along and just race?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

We could but we never will.
Just imagine how scary that would be to the NHRA. If we all agreed and got along, we would have the ability to dictate to them instead of them to us.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Is anyone who has been around the sport for any length of time really surprised all of this is happening? Deja vu all over again.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Nope, and Yep!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

My earlier comment was not a poor attempt at sarcasm; it was just sarcasm... period. If in your mind, it was a poor attempt, I can't help ya.


Also, in my earlier post, I did imply that "no expense spared" cars are hurting Stock (and, to some degree, Super Stock). Your response is that if I spent more on the car and less on the motorhome, there wouldn't be the problems there are today. I absolutely get your point, but respectfully disagree.


My point was not that it is relevant how a racer's money is apportioned; it was, rather, that very few people ever actually expected the day where a National Event-competitive Stocker would cost $150,000+, and outfits like Elite and DSR would be involved in building and racing such cars.


Sportsman racing is slowly, but steadily, moving to nothing more than a varied selection of professional classes, and just like with Econo-Dragster and Econo-Altered (from decades ago), the concept of building and having fun with a reasonably-priced, relatively low-tech Stocker is almost gone.


The argument that it is somehow "noble" to spend all of your money on the car doesn't wash. People who have the inside track will always have access to things you and I won't ever have access to, regardless of how much our motorhome cost. Millionaire schmucks can have it all, and because they're millionaires, they can "buy" access to people and technologies we can't. We kill flies with our hands; they kill flies with atom bombs.


My overall point is that it's a shame that the days where racer commitment and ingenuity were the primary measures of success are virtually gone. Need better heads? Buy 'em! Need to spend a few thousand dollars to develop better heads? Write that check! Need a completely state-of-the-art chassis? Buy it! Need access to the GM wind tunnel? Call your buddy who can arrange it! Need to rent a track to test for a couple of days? Get your wallet out!


Yes, my nice motorhome probably is a luxury that could be forgone for the sake of a couple of tenths, but if I flat-towed my car to the track with my daily driver, I could never out-spend the individuals (and corporations) that have literally limitless funding and access to brilliant engineering and testing.


I never said that wasn't a reality of today's drag racing; I just said it's a shame.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

In response to the above post (not quoting for space reasons), how does any of that take away from your experience? Race what you want to race and can afford, and go have fun!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

A simple and completely valid point. Thanks.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

There ya have it!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

1998 Larry Kopp n Jenkins tear into first season of pro stock truck with the Grumps knowledge of engines and Larrys years of experience running a stick shift combo and win the championship . that deal was probably a 6 figure season. The following season people with literally truck loads of money show up 7 figures by my estimation and pro stock truck is on its deathbed by 2002. History is repeating itself here as well . The people on the top at first who were there from the beginning cause this is the cause they championed and got the class they fought for are now gonna get trampled by the rich that just wanna come in n have some fun and spend some money. How on earth could anyone believe this class would not turn into a fiasco in record time is disturbing !!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Its really disturbing that this class is failing. 11 entries for St Louis. We have busted our *** to get where we are at now and now the class looks uncertain. I agree with Brett why cant we just get along and make more of a effort to make this class survive! NHRA is making a effort to make it competitive for all of us. When the car count starts dropping NHRA will give up on this class. All the racers that do compete in this class have to admit its a blast. Heads up racing with no breakout or worry about your index getting hit is awesome. I realize its not a cheap class but reality its the cheapest heads up class there is in NHRA.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

I find this class far from a fiasco... 25+ cars showing up on a regular basis for 16 spots doesn't look like a fiasco to me. Growing pains maybe but fiasco?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

There is a NMCA race the same weekend as St.Louis NHRA. There are only so many FS/XX cars to go around. 16+ cars pre-entered over there.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

There will be 32-38 “shootout” cars racing next weekend! The NMCA and NHRA race are on top of each other. There are ten or more racers that race both series. People chasing points in both sanctioning bodies are forced to make decisions. Turk, Watson, and Liebersher cars are in close points battle in NMCA. Barton, Gasko, Welch, and Skillman are going to St. Louis but not signed up yet. Skinner is thrashing to get his engine back together. Bad planning? Yes! Class dying? Doesn’t sound like it to me? Are their problems? Could it go away if we don’t address some issues? Yes! Outside of Pro Mod is there another class that can have full fields at two races the same weekend?

Just Saying....
S.Bell

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

From what I here NMCA is a better deal. Track prep is better, more runs due to all run field. Not sure how much entry fee is for NMCA.

Having two NHRA races back to back for the Show Down cars puts team parts inventory at a premium.

Just where does a racer go test to get one of these cars to go A to B?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Ok, I couldn’t resist any longer :)

As one of the Dodges running the ‘bogus’ engine combination but who also actively campaigned (and routinely qualified in the top 6-8 out of 15-20 participants) with the ‘factory’ engine combination, here’s my offer:

To David Barton and/or Stephen Bell, I will reinstall the ‘factory’ engine that truly used production car/truck (not ‘production’ as in we put it in a ‘factory’ race car we sold a few of but ‘production’ as in it comes from a production car / truck that were sold by the tens of thousands), remove my production hood (that I cut a few inches of sheet metal out of the underside) to accommodate my non ‘factory’ installed air inlet and I will return to running zero air inlet system, drawing air from the back of the radiator, oh yeah, for David, I’ll also take off my ‘remote’ water pump that is bolted to the block and move the engine back to the exact location it was in (man, those were such huge gains).

You guys find some production heads and block (as in came in a Chevy car or truck, but you can cnc the heads), remove your purpose built special hood (is it really carbon fiber ?) that only came on a ‘factory’ race car and the related air inlet system that goes with it (that was also not ever on a production car)

And then, we meet at a track somewhere and run ‘em, 2 out of 3.

If I lose, I will publicly appologize for all the Dodges now running at the front with stuff we installed, that’s kind of like yours, but we had to put in after we got the car from the ‘factory’ (a small facility that finishes building 50+ hand built cars /year, kind of like the ‘factories’ your cars came from) BUT if I win, you have to never, ever again say how our current engines are bogus and not ‘factory’, our hoods / radiator supports are cut and that we have ‘remote’ water pumps.

You guys in ? Oh, and I’ll even let you guys keep your non production car/truck heads and block, special hood and air intake if you just let me keep my ‘cut’ production hood and air intake (I’ll run the special ‘bogus or not ?’ match race I am proposing with my ‘truck’ engine). We can all run at 3,550, right ? (And I won’t ask you to tape cardboard boxes to your cars to get to the same cross sectional area or drag coefficient).

Let’s schedule it and get this over with so we can go back out, work on our cars and race in the NHRA / NMCA, the people who continue to give us an awesome opportunity to be a part of one of the coolest classes that’s come along in drag racing in a while. :)

BTW, do I look fat in the Challenger ? I think I look good with the extra 25lbs, right buddies ? (don’t answer this). See you out there ;)

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

If leveling horsepower would please everyone that's not horribly difficult. A fixed diameter orifice with flow certification (issued by NHRA) installed before the fuel pressure regulator, plus a max spec for fuel pressure, would accomplish that. Not hard.

Each vehicle platform has its own advantages & disadvantages and those would be more difficult to quantify & sort out effective countermeasures to equalize all of them. Regardless, it all needs to be considered since there is more going down the track than "The Motor".

The real lack of parody seems to be each manufacturer's rep's ability to get submissions in (cars and parts) and approved.

One gains submission approvals for new engines, etc. that retro back several production years, favorable HP ratings vs submitted engine specs, blocks with big lifters & purpose made heads, etc.

Another had a similar thing going on until their rep made a career change & left, but they had a pretty good go at gaining submission approval with emails and no sample part reviews.

The third rep seems to be unwilling to make submissions that retro back, or somehow if they are trying their submissions are refused. Also, they seem to be less willing to invest in bespoke parts and instead are using items from their "general use" catalog. This actually makes sense if you're running a business to make money, instead of making heavy investment to create bespoke parts that are not produced in any appreciable volume and therefore are not generally available & cannot be sold at a profit.

When I was involved with this on the OEM side, I suggested that all submissions should be reviewed by NHRA and engineering people from each OEM before they are approved. I also suggested that denial or disapproval from a competitor's OEM must include sound reasoning (technical facts) to support their argument. This way it would be less likely to become an emotionally fueled pitch battle.......Just facts & data.

I also suggested that all new car submissions should be demonstrated on-track with engineering reps from each OEM and NHRA present, at a location of NHRA's choice, before the new car is approved. This would include a review of ECU and vehicle data logger information by all present to avoid having submissions pass through with sandbagging measures like throttle cables set to only open the blades 50% or spark retarded 15°.

I still tend to think this is a good idea, and nobody was ever able to present a sound argument against it.

Back to the retro submissions & parts on the fly for a minute, if a decision was made by NHRA that says there will be no new engines, extensive vehicle modifications, air intakes, etc. accepted for older model year cars that were already submitted and accepted, what should be done with the cars/combinations that are already out there today?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

The blocks were never recalled, and every single one of them had an iron LSX block from the git-go.

Heads with extra helper bolts were provided after a management decision to use 4-bolt heads (from a surplus of existing inventory) was not successful. Customers were able to keep their original heads and they got brand-new 6-bolt heads, plus gaskets, bolts, and an apology letter.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Why is this thread conjuring up visions of boxy Fairmonts and 4-door Mavericks?

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Question about the Dodge hood. I get it was changed from the Drag Pak hood, but the "new" hood is a factory production piece. (I have one on my daily driver.) My question is why the air box change? Is the opening in the hood not large enough? I have seen the photos with the wide box, but it still necks down into a single opening...not to mention the radiator support modification...

I would think the NACA duct style scoop would be somewhat effective in pulling air since the opening is along the base of the hood as opposed to raised in the air. While I don't know how much room there is once the hood is closed, I would think a modified box would be able to be built pulling air from the factory opening, and necking down right into the throttle body, without cutting the radiator support. It would definitely lend a more "production" approach to the hood.

Pics of a production car for reference... Maybe I think about things too much...

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Exactly. It's been that way for as far back as I can remember. It is what it is.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

I don't think that you can get near the air that you need through the stock opening.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

175.00

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Waiting with baited breath . . . :)

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Geoff, I want some of that 2/3 stuff (not with you). David, bring a 68 Dart as well. Fun time. I was always taught what goes around comes around. Great job Kevin and always great to hear from Uncle Jeff. Stephen

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Unlike Stock and Super Stock you guys actually hold all the cards because the OEM's are still engaged at the Showdown level and nhra likes their money. You guys should form your own Showdown Association and then each group of OEM racers can select a member from their group to form a 3 man advisory panel. Then this panel can hammer out all of these problems. Each group would vote on a resolution provided by the panel and if it is approved, hand it to nhra and the OEM's and tell them this is what you want. You guys are spending all the money and doing all the work - the OEM's and nhra get much more out of it than you do. It could also be considered as a peace treaty.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Great idea!!!






Bret Velde
2003 SS??

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

^^^^ Racers from different brands agree on something?!
Might add, only the loser's and the ones that can't keep up want rules changes.
I can see it now "I'm a tenth ahead of the rest, put 50lbs on me"

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Oh yee of little faith. The equipment seems to be the real problem. Get that hammered out and let the chips fall where they may.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Don't normally agree with Bruce, however, this makes perfect sense! If you Showdown guys don't do this, your group will go the way of Pro Stock Truck. Jim

.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Who cares as long as the 9" tire rule exists, it's the equalizer.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

MMMMMMMM, not really, the person programing the PCU is the "equalizer"!

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

Shame on me, I didn't know it was that easy.

Re: Make the Chevrolet Win
 

9" tire....it will ALWAYS be the micro-processer doing the "real work". If they spin, you can't win. Next up to watch for is the RPM-to-time controls. Set the engine to only rev so fast on time vs rpm somewhere in the digital ICM box and you can get down the track.
I hope you all find an answer, great fun watching 9" tire cars go 8.0s.