Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I'm from the old school, lets run off of the records and who ever cant handle the heat in the kitchen, there is always Super Pro, Super Gas, Pro or Super Street to race at. Back in the day you was the big dog just to go the record. If someone runs more then a tenth under the record at a given even, it automatic loses a tenth. Now this would get interesting for sure.

Jimmy Turttle

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

That was already attempted and the participation dropped off considerably.
The AHFS should count ALL runs or should be eliminated altogether.It makes no sense to exclude "certain runs and certain places".
If the 1.15 under was changed to 1.55 or 2.15 under,people would still complain.If people resort to spending $5000 and up on a set of heads to run one second or more under,they will spend a couple hundred more bucks and put their car on the juice to run 2 seconds under.
Both items are illegal,but nobody seems to care.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

As I see it, there are some gems throughout this discussion that have been brought up.

I like the idea of more runs being counted, but not necessarily at ALL factored tracks. Some seem to be more advantageous than others. I wouldn't be happy for getting HP added to my combo for a run at a factored track who's "factor" is innaccurate, or skewed by atmospheric conditions that make it superhuman. (Las Vegas in October? Boise in April/May?)

I think Stevie Ficacci is right about more head's up runs and I like Dave Ring's suggestion about how Comp is currently set-up.

Good stuff guys. Keep the ideas coming...as soon as the name-calling starts, I don't know about you, but I move on to the next post.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

While I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm around all of you guys every year, and perhaps can lend a perspective point of view from the outside that isn't corporate.

No AHFS during qualifying at any event. If there must be an AHFS hit after an event, it should be triggered during any elimination round -- Divisional or National, regular or class, but not Opens. Getting hit with horsepower at an event that will only earn you grade points wouldn't make any sense at all.

Running STK and SS exactly like Comp would make sense to me in some respects. ...mostly because I understand Comp. But, doing so would park a boatload of race cars and drivers who have been racing under the dial-in elimination rules for many years. The classes really are bracket classes the way things are set up today. You have to dial in, hit the tree and race the stripe to win.

If, as some have suggested, the quotas for National events shrink to 64, then I'd say run 'em like Comp, with CIC's during the event and levy permanent hits the following week on those killing the index.

Adjustments at altitude factored tracks......what would really be fair? An adjustment running under the factored index, or an adjustment only when running under the non-factored index? I don't think either one is fair, given the antiquity of the altitude factors and the variable air available at every track, be they at altitude or not. Maybe, add .20 to the hit number at a factored track to get a hit. I don't know -- just offering a suggestion.

Whatever happens or doesn't happen, I hope it keeps the most cars and drivers on the strip as is possible.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

The following is a proposal I sent to NHRA.



Subject: Horsepower adjustment committee

I would like to propose a new alternative to the present procedure of adjusting the horsepower ratings, and/or indexes, that is currently being used by NHRA.

This method would utilize a panel of racers to gather the information and suggest adjustments on a monthly, or more frequent, basis. The panel would consist of one Stock, and one SS racer, from each Division. The information can be obtained from different sources fairly easily. Drag Race Central, NHRA online, and Nitro Joe?s race stats, just to mention a few. Each Division Director could select the panel members, on a volunteer basis. Each member would deal only with his/her particular class (Stock or SS). No member would serve as both class representatives. Information would be collected, surveyed by all the members, and recommendations submitted. Since there are seven Divisions, there should be a majority vote on most reviews. The exception to this would be that, if a member?s combination is under review, that member could have input, but no vote. All runs would count to compile the information for review. No set performance number, as is now being used, would initiate a review, but all runs would be considered. However, a simple formula of additional and/or reduction of horsepower adjustment could be implemented, but not set in stone. Information would be compiled, and reviewed for several combinations at one time. Information would pertain to particular engine information. Body style could be considered, but not mandatory. The same would apply to transmission type. The members would then agree on any adjustments by vote.

I would like to explain how this system would work, versus the system now being used, by a few hypothetical situations.
1. At a National Event, the low qualifier is ?1.14 under the index. The No.2 qualifier is -.98 under. Under the current system, no review is needed. However, it is obvious that there is a disparity. With this system, information about the low qualifier would be reviewed. For the most part, the member from the Division of the low qualifier would have personal input as to the validity of the performance. If the information regarding the low qualifier?s engine combination indicates that he/she is far advanced over similar combinations, then the each member would have input as to whether this is a true indication of the capabilities of this particular engine.
2. At a National Event, the low qualifier is ?1.28 under the index. The next 6 qualifiers are all faster than ?1.15 under their indexes. Under the current system, all of these combinations would count towards a review. However, in this scenario, the track?s actual altitude is 1,500?, but the adjusted altitude is 200?. In other words, the actual race conditions are extremely favorable to engine performances greater than the actual numbers that they are capable of producing. In this scenario, the member from the Division where the track is located would have personal input regarding the actual conditions at the time these numbers were produced. This information would be considered by all of the members before recommendations would be made.
3. At a National Event, the low qualifier is ?1.42 under the index. The next 10 qualifiers are all faster than ?1.25 under their indexes. However, this particular track is an altitude corrected track, therefore no runs are used to trigger a review under the current system. Under this system, these runs could indeed be used for review. Once again, the member from the Division where this race was held would have personal input to share with the other members regarding any decisions.
4. At a Division Event, the low qualifier is ?1.25 under the index. The next 5 qualifiers are all faster than ?1.15 under their indexes. Under the current system, no review would be initiated. However, under this system, this information could be used by the members to make decisions at that time, or use the information for future reference.
These are just a few of the numerous scenarios that could be listed for comparing the two systems.

There are several advantages to this system. By using all runs, the horsepower ratings would begin to reflect the true performance of each combination. This would help eliminate the constant manipulation of the existing system. After a period of time (notably shorter than the existing system), you would begin to see much more parity among the different combinations. Good air conditions would now have an impact on the decisions for how much, if any, of an adjustment, were needed. Bad conditions and/or altitude corrected tracks would no longer protect the engine combinations from scrutiny.

I think this a workable solution to the problems of the existing system. There might also be suggestions that could be considered towards improvement of this idea.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Charlie Ford made some great point's especailly about taking track conditions into the equation.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I think you guys are trying to invent the BCS of drag racing.

I personally do not think that works either.

By the way how many rounds did you guys race last year and how many were "heads up"? I wager not very many. We went 34 rounds with 2 heads up. We went 6 rounds and 7 rounds at back to back races, for those who think you need to go rounds to have them, and had none. It just does not happen a lot.

If we continue to make this a big problem NHRA might decide to make it go away.

This thread is proof, there is not a single solution that will satisfy every one - so who gets to be unhappy?

We are all just bored since last year is over and next year has not started.

Once we are back to racing, most of us will not have time for this crap.

We will be spending money we can not afford on our addiction -drag racing.

There is no rehab for drag racing. Nothing will make us quit.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

The simple thing to do is count all runs at National events including all class runs. This is not a big change but would have a big effect on soft combos.

Greg

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I think it is a daunting task to try to make Fords, Chevys, and Chryslers in the same class, have a level playing field.

We have acombination - we race against - that has 40 more cubic inches and weighs 400 lbs less than us. I know we would hear a lot of reasons why but 400 pounds and 40 cubic inches. It is a four barrel with upgraded, imporved and approved rules.

Our combination is 10hp less (80 pounds) - if it is in a different body style.

Go figure.

AHFS will never be able to please even a majority. So let's just hope we make it to February.

That is if you are 18, which Andy is not, so no racing for him at National evets in February.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

what about letting the AHFS be in effect every run BUT also use a formula to decide how far under the index it should be,,,,,,,,,,example would be,,,at alt factored tracks,,the AHFS would also be factored,,,take into consideration of weather conditions,,,,,If one was racing at 300ft below sea level,,the the AHFS would not be 1.15,,it would be a higher number,,,,,,it would be that hard for NHRA to come up with a formula of what it should be at each track,,,,,,the only confusion might come from weather or conditions changing,,,,,,,,,,,for the AHFS to wrok and work correctly,,it is going to have to be flexible and count every run

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

You ever compare your adjusted altitude to the guy pitted next to you.

Ask 10 people and you will get 10 readings. Whose will rule?

I vote for NHRA to invent the "BCS" of drag racing - that will help us a lot.

What about payouts? A much more important topic.

Entry fees have gone from $75 to $250 but payouts have either stayed the same or gone down.

Get a grip.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Everyone should listen to what Lynn has been trying to get across for years. It seems that Angelo is and does understand, what about the rest?

Want to go fast? Great!

National and Divisional Races:
Qualifying and All Heads Up (class & eliminator) runs don't count. They are used as information for creating Lynn's system. Go as fast as you need to win. Evan's idea of awarding points is great! All runs during the eliminator (shoe polish) count.

National Opens: No runs at national opens count. Have a good time.These runs can be used to create Lynn's system.

After a couple of years of everyone having a good time and not getting hit Lynn's system should have enough data to be implemented.

The issue of atmospheric conditions and altitude tracks will need to be addressed. Some sort of algorithm will need to be created with weather conditions and actual altitude input to create a way of equalizing or averaging the information across the country.

A bit of a task, I would say. There would need to be a kit assembled with laptop loaded with software and weather instruments directly connected. No inputting weather and altitude numbers. A program like Crew Chief Pro could be further developed, weather instruments and GPs are available. Each division would have one or more kits. The kit would be updated and calibrated regularly by an single technician and sealed.

The official designated to operate it at the races would be properly trained.

The resulting factor would be used to adjust the actual performance numbers obtained and applied to Lynn's bell curve system. The factor more than likely would have to be established for each session as weather conditions change during the day, day to day.

Sounds like fun!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

From reading all of the posts....I conclude that we should all just shut up and go racing! Angelo had the best solution! His suggestion goes along with what I stated earlier about having the weather conditions at each race be a factor in determining horsepower reviews! If #1 is 1.38 under and #2 is 1.15 under......there is a problem! That combo that ran 1.38 under needs reviewed instantly! But until something like this is implemented.......there is no use complaining because you're not going to change anything!

Hey Keith........why don't you go win a race before you call me a dumb f&%*!!! Or get your car to run at least .50 under so you can get a class win!!!

Ed, I won the division in Super Stock this year and did not drive a super fast car. In fact, I was the slowest car in my class at the Dutch Classic! And, I got beat in my only heads up run I had during elims all year at Cecil County by being outrun by over a tenth!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Lynn and Angelo make sense.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

How would they're ideas eliminate the shoe polish from class racing? Sounds like more of the same to me just more difficult for NHRA to administer.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

how about set the ahfs at -.075 under, no quota for national events and a 64 car qualified field?

fix the problem if there is one pretty quick

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Formulas sound good but we all know nhra ain't into spending money on us. That is their favorite thing about the ahfs, apparently they have discovered that it can semi sorta replace an active tech department. They will deny it.

A person from out west tells me that this new -1.15 rule was scheduled to be part of the revised ahfs release that is due out any day. And the majority of the racers had already said no to it. Slick little devils aren't they.

Len Imbrogno
 

I'm really slow here. But then I spoke to 2 other racer's who had also hashed thru this thread and they couldn't give me a definitive answer either. So regarding this thread, is the proposed AHFS trigger of -1.15 under the index by itself or in conjunction with the proposed .200 reduction of each index? And either way, are we talking about a mandatory "review" @ -1.15 or are we talking a mandatory assignment of HP @ -1.15 under? Presently it's a "review" @ 1.15 and then HP is automatically assigned in incrementals thereafter.
I'd like a definitive answer, not a speculative answer and preferably from Len.
Thank you,
Jeff Lee

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

It appears that one again Mr. Noland has put the cart before the horse - smart money says that the issue will be discussed and decided this weekend at the PRI show. We agree with Charlie Ford's suggested changes. We strongly believe that whatever the outcome ALL runs should count - not just 1st round of class.

On another subject that will effect us all - has anyone noticed the low entry availability for next year's National event registration? One example is Norwalk - NO Stock - 80 Superstock - yet 110 each of Super Comp and Super Gas. Throw in the Stockers who have no place to race, but can roll into Superstock and how many of you will be left out? We were told that the .2 adjustment was to eliminate some of this problem.

I don't know "Keith", but I do know the Worner Bros. and I sure wouldn't be callin' them names!

As for Len Imbrogno - he's the real deal. We've never asked him for help that he didn't at least try to help us. And now with Bruce Bachelder heading the Tech Department, we should see some major improvements and decisions that stick.

Regardless of the rule changes or the price of diesel fuel - we'll see ya all in the staging lanes because we love Superstock racing and most of the people involved.

Larry & Lisa Buckingham
SS3820/SS3821

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

>> One example is Norwalk - NO Stock - 80 Superstock - yet 110 each of Super Comp and Super Gas.

Now that's ridiculous, IMO. We've run close to 1,000 cars at Norwalk for years.

>> We were told that the .2 adjustment was to eliminate some of this problem.

I believe Len said back on page 1 of this thread 'no' to the .20 index change. Len *is* a good guy, who has long stood for the racer. He deserves some respect.


>> how about set the ahfs at -.075 under, no quota for national events and a 64 car qualified field?
>> fix the problem if there is one pretty quick

Although probably tongue-in-cheek, that's probably not far off the mark! Everyone would be judged, refactored, and re-classed with a clean slate in a heartbeat! LOL

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Was told the 2008 is the last year for the rotation of classes at national events. The end of the trial.

2009 all classes will run at all national events. Car count will be cut as X amount of cars can be run down the track on a given day within the time constraints. Logistical issues are just a fact of life. If you want to run a national you are going to need them grade points.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

As far as I am concerned, I will still concentrate on using my shoe polish since we are under the index.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Mr. Buckingham,

You sound very much in the know on all things nhra or possibly some one is retro fitting the news for you. After cleaning your nose can you please tell me who will be discussing what at the PRI show? Specifics please!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

There are rules of engagement that must be followed when doing statistical evaluations. Some are assumptions. Some assumptions are statistically significant, some are not. This is why no system is perfect.

However, you cannot have a valid system that is not mathematically accurate. If NASA did it the AHFS way, they would have missed the moon entirely. It is only the manual joy stick that keeps in on track. (The good people adding some sense to it)

One thing that is perfectly clear, you must correct to sea level or some other standard. Yes there would be some inaccuracies, but a 10.00 run at 5000 feet is not the same as a 9.80 run at sea level. Most racers have the software in their trailers to calculate all of this. It isnt that hard to do.

Yes if a set of numbers are found to be inaccurate, then you gotta throw them out. The statistical method of standard deviation can be found on any Excel Spread Sheet or any high school science book. It is the only right way to do things. It separates the individual outstanding performances from bogus HP and bogus parts acquisition.

Even doing it the right way is difficult, can you imagine the mistakes doing it the wrong way? I would say an engine family that averages 1.15(without sandbagging) under to an engine family that averages 0.7 is an egregious difference. If we have a AHFS, then how does this condition currently exist if it is working?

My guess to equalize these two would be about 70HP?(assuming 15HP a tenth?) How many 3-4HP adders would we do? How long would it take? I assure you there are many engines that fit this category and worse.

Lynn

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

You do not need an Excel spreadsheet to do it. It is easy to do a computer program that would adjust the numbers based on weather conditions and actual track altitude. The computer program called Density, that was created by Pat Hale, can be modified to do so. Nevertheless, Pat sold all the program rights to the owner of speedtalk.com. NHRA should hire Pat Hale to develop a computer program to do the adjustments properly and scientifically, and take away the "Human Interest/Factor" from the adjustments.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Greg has it right and Bruce has it right also. NHRA is not going to do a darn thing that takes alot of time and manpower. Why do you think they implemented the AHFS in the first place? Why do you think they don't count runs that are not on the Q sheet? Nitro Joe has all the numbers . They are not that hard to find.
I'll say it again. Count all runs at Nationals . Forget Div's . You want your combo hit by somebody that is claiming the small cam motor ,when they really should be carrying 20 -30 more HP? Don't think it has not been done.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

If the runs at the Divisional races are not going to be included in the AHFS,they why have any heads- up races at Divisionals?
Isn't the purpose of the AHFS to try and equalize the combinations,so if everyone worked hard on their combo,then theoretically it would be an even race?
If there is no AHFS at Divisionals,then just get rid of it altogether.When some cars run over 1.15 under with a 20 mph headwind in 4000 ft corrected air,I would kind of like to see how fast they could go at sea level anyways.I'm thinking several combos are capable of 1.6-1.7 under if they really went for the killer pass.Not legal,of course,but still impressive!

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Asked and answered.
I'm sure you remember , being the veteran racer you are, when there were teardowns at Divisionals.
Again , it comes down to manpower and effort. It just ain't gonna happen nowadays.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Actually any simple program could do it or anyone knowing how to do spc methods and data entry. Excel has it or any other compute programs. It isnt rocket science more like High School Science.

Lynn

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Hey Mark,

You + Greg are both right.. The other thing that needs to stop is giving ANY HP without a teardown first to be sure they are legal... How many times were they torn down later and found illegal...But the HP aways stayed and never was reduced ..This should always happen any time you get HP added... Yes, all runs during National events should count... I think this would be a good first step..........Dave,

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

My dad told me a story about Ronnie Sox in 1967 he set the NHRA record at lakeland dragway in Memphis then lost at 4 cars. NHRA had a rule then it was mandatory to tear down if you ran quicket than the record. Buster made Ronnie tear the car down after he lost. Ronnie was mad and my dad helped him.........3 years later my dad was able to drive for Sox and Martin. My point is Ronnie was going to leave and Buster told him if you leave plan on taking a year off.

Herb McCandless Jr

I didnt read mush of this thread but if it was done then it can be done now.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Bruce
What Bucky was saying is the NHRA Divisional and Tech people will be meeting next week (PRI week) to finalize changes for 2008. It is an annual thing nothing unusual.

I also agree with Buck on Len. He has always been straight with me and lets me know when I might be out of line. He is between the "rock and the hard spot", when changes are made he gets abuse from the opposition no matter what his stand was on the issue.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

weve heard some really good suggestions concerning some of the problems with the AHFS. i think everyone needs to realize that any system we use will never be perfect.my opinion would be that if all the cars in a certian class can be factored within a tenth of each other, it would be as good as it can get.
any number we use to start triggering is really meaningless. the cars that are in danger of hitting this trigger will just slow there cars down to keep themselve below it. aside from heads up runs and trying to qualify for indy (maybe), any data put into the system will be false as the cars will only be going as fast as the owner care to show. therefore the only people who get hp will be someone who had a heads up, or some one who went to fast carelessly. (its a shame in a "perfomance" class that we are all not going as fast as we can, or get called "brain dead "D**k Slingers", "DONKEY" and "MORON". these quotes were lifting from posts this past week referring to people who actually "race" thier "racecars".)
i think we can all agree that a cars true potential is only really shown during heads up runs. these runs are the ones that need to be used during the AHFS. the only problem with this is that only about half the classes have enough cars in them to be seriously in danger of having a heads up run. according to my most recent nitro joe's, 23 classes have 21 or more cars and 46 have 21 or less cars. i use 21 because that would average 3 cars per division in that particular class. next year when the classes are combined (FI and carbs) these numbers change to 21 classes with 21+cars and 25 with 21 or less cars. so only about half of the classes "might" have a heads up run where they show the true potential of thier cars.
for example i race in F and G/SA. currently the 2 biggest classes in stock and regularly have around 10 cars each in division 1 at any race. I went to 12 races and went a few rounds but only had 2 heads up runs, the only time all year i "may" have needed to show the true potential of my car. many racers can go all whole year or years without a heads up run.
this is the biggest flaw with the AHFS. there is no good data to work from because all the cars in "bracket mode". for some it is alot and for some it may be very little.
realistically a guy with an good running car will get himself hp by running his car hard. but guys with soft combos and fast cars dont get hit because they have no reason to show thier hand.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I think there are one or two fast racers who are for making 1.15 under at Divisionals the new mark and yet the majority of the racers still oppose any changes. And I'm not sure that the fast racers who are for it aren't hedging a little with their endorsement of the -1.15 number.

You guys have to remember that nhra has been allowing tons of go fast parts for the past ten years. Now they want to slow all the racers down who worked hard on their combinations by taking a broad brush stroke and erasing ten years of approving parts and modifications.

There are some folks who are limited as what they can do with their combinations but there are others who choose not to work hard or to spend the money necessary to go fast and yet they are in the minority of racers who seem to be the most vocal on this issue. Look at their numbers.

We are still in a performance sport and I am absolutely opposed to snuffing out the only bit of tradition that we have left.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Dave,

I missed your post while typing my last post. Len's job performance is a different issue but I would like to ask a couple of questions since it has become part of this theard. I'm sure there is some official response to these questions.

I'm glad you have had a positive relationship with Len. I'm glad he is doing some good things. But he drops the ball on way too many important issues for us. When Len came to work for nhra he made a very strong point during all of his early meetings with us. He said that Tom Compton told him that he knew he had a lot of unhappy customers in the Sportsman ranks and that it was his (Len) job to make things right. Len stood before several group meetings and said that he answered only to Tom Compton and that nothing would change for Sportsman racers unless we voted on it. I told him that we would hold him to those statements and he boastfully said I hope so.

Can you tell the difference between racing now and racing before Len came? Are we happier now? Yea, I know we can always race some where else and I'm doing that but I still have a lot of friends who race nhra as well and I'm going to race with them too.

And why won't Len answer any of the tough questions? Maybe he is between a rock and a hard place, but he can still be honest without coming out here and cherry picking the threads and then adding some nhra spin and heading for cover. I'm out here taking a hammering over this thread because I believe strongly enough in our sport and its traditions to take the pounding, but this guy just hits and runs. Len get your butt back out here and tell us the truth about what has been going on with the ahfs!!!!!

A couple of questions he can answer and won't. Who made all the changes to the ahfs without publishing them first which in turn hurt a lot of unsuspecting racers? And if the changes were improperly made to the ahfs why hasn't nhra corrected the problem by readjusting the illegal adjustments and going back to the ahfs version that we all agreed would be the way we would regulate our performance? I have heard that they are now going to publish a new version of the ahfs - at least we should know what will happen for a few weeks into the new season.

And finally, since he answers only to Tom Compton why didn't he follow the wishes of the majority of the racers and stop this -1.15 under business when it first came up?

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

Bruce,

Sorry if I have not been able to continually review this message thread. My duties go far beyond monitoring websites. Let's also not forget that I also respond to questions on other various websites for Comp Eliminator, TAD, TAFC, Bracket Racing, NHRA member tracks issues and many others, as well as hundreds of emails and telephone calls monthly.

Regarding your questions about AHFS changes, any minor changes done to the AHFS have been published for racers to see. As examples: 6-5-03 - "Racer Sound of asking for racer input on AHFS; 8/17/03 - Proposed changes to AHFS by NHRA; 10/1 03- "Adapted changes to AHFS based on racer input"; 1/31/03 - "AHFS explained"

While there were minor changes to the AHFS as published above, the basic format of the AHFS has never changed. It has always been based on three screenings. 1- engine family average, 2-class/engine average, 3- Body Style and transmission type.
If you feel there have been changes that racers were unaware of, as you continually state, please post on this website what and where those changes were so we can all see what you continue to refer to as "changes that hurt unsuspecting racers".

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I sent the above to Len Imbrogno. His response (he asked that I share this on classracer and he would respond in a few more days):

-START- Good to hear from you. The S/SS committee has yet to a have chance to get together to finalize anything to release to the racers regarding the AHFS. This is the point I have been trying to make to everyone. This coming week will be the first time since Pomona that key tech guys will be together, at the PRI show, to be able to discuss and review all the details, then post a finalized proposal on the NHRA website for racers to see. So far, it looks as though the review process will still be 2 runs at 1.15 (as it currently is) and it also looks like there may not be any change to the indexes for 2008. - END-

So there it is. At this point, no decisions have been made, NHRA is looking for input and it doesn't look like a .200 or any reduction in indexes. So as it is now, this very minute, the AHFS does not have anything in writing as far as changes. Because the paragraph above by Len Imbrogno is exactly what we have now. So what is all the screaming about?

I'll give some racers (and pretend racers) something to scream about. Here's what I would like to see implemented by NHRA for 2008. All areas are designed to bring the racing back into racing and are for both Stock and SuperStock.

1) If NHRA insists to limit fields, limit the field but not the entrants.
If 200 racers want to qualify for 75 positions, let 'em fight for it.

2) Lower all indexes .500.
Yes, that will knock some out of the playing field. And maybe .500 is too harsh but it gets the point across. Some will play harder, some will never come back. Nobody ever said this was supposed to be easy and the determined will come out stronger. Isn't that what this sport was built on? By the way, my SS/H AMX has never been faster than .79 under so presently I'm not looking good under this proposal.

3) AHFS trigger set to "review" at 1.00 under index.
Yes, that will make it darn difficult to get HP if all you do is play against the AHFS. Keep reading...

4) Maximum ballast 100#.
With items #2 & #3 above, you shouldn't need 350#'s of ballast (or more) to protect yourself.

5) Combine FI cars with carb cars first, later combine stick and auto.
You'll have a lot of heads-up runs determining the overall winner. Guess that means you had better be fast or stay at home!

6) All runs @ National events count.
Translating this to todays rules, it would take a 1.500 under run to set the AHFS. Atmospheric conditions are hardly ever a factor in anybody running 1.500 under or better.
So if the mineshaft makes you run 1.00 under or better against a .500 harder index, you probably need HP anyways.

7) As stated by Evan Smith previously, points for accomplishments.

You combine all of the above and the fans have some real races to watch. It's easy to implement. Just takes a stroke of a pen. For the whinners that will inevitably get on here and complain they've spent every ounce of energy in going .500 under today and this will knock them out of the field, sorry. Historically, there was a time in Stock & SS that it was an honor just to run the index. If this is your passion, you'll find your way.

Stock has gone from a performance class where it was a training field for SS and sometimes modified and then Pro-Stock. Reputations and careers of engine builders and component manufacturers were built from this class. Eventually those that couldn't keep up started complaining (to the point the Stock class was dropped in the early '70's) and it became more of a bracket class. Note I'm not complaining about bracket racers or bracket racing. As technology advanced and the science of the class became less secretative, NHRA tech "old guard" faded away and more liberal rules with softer indexes followed, it became increasingly easy to run very far under the index. So here we are today, almost everybody can run .75 under or greater with minimal effort.
I think the time has come that the Stock class & SS class go full circle, back to what it once was in terms of prestige. And maybe a decade or two later it will evolve the other way again.

That's my feelings on the subject. Despite a few casualties, I believe in the long run it is better for the sport.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I agree with you Jeff, but why not go all the way and eliminate the shoe polish and run off the record. No break out. I think racers would like this if they tried it. The faster class cars wouldn't have such an advantage of playing games at the stripe against the lower classed cars. Running close to your record would be more important than how much seat time you get. You would still have some sandbagging but it be less.

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

I'll go with Jeff.
Thanks Jerry Davis Stk 4168

Re: Word is 1.15 under for AHFS at Opens and Divisional races
 

There's a good reason why you can't do that. Because , before long S and SS would be down to 20-30 cars at a national event. Just like happened back in the 70's.