Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Maybe it'll all come down to the "data loggers" in our cars just "talking" to the NHRA computer through our laptops and everything will be just fine. ;-)

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

And the whole problem can be eliminated by no more heads up racing from same class when 90% or more of the other runs are a dial your own number inside the index. One can put millions of $$ in a car and it will mean nothing but show off. Talk about bringing the costs down here’s the answer. Rome is burning and most are blind to it.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

E.T.-2 to the staging lanes!

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Unpopular statement..but true..
All the rules, rules changes, AHFS etc come down to one thing in the eliminator. "Do I have enough, have I worked hard enough, have I SPENT enough to survive a heads up run?"
Get rid of heads up runs (except for class eliminations) and watch the cost go down,and the participation go up.
Flame away!...I'm ready

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Yyyyyeeeeeaaaaahhhhh, nnnnnoooooooooooo.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

In my humble opinion… we don’t have enough heads up racing. For most here it’s still a performance class.,

Put performance back up front.
I have plenty of brackets out here to race at.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Every divisional event and national event IS a bracket race, heads up is nothing more than an ego-bully race. 50 years ago when S/S and Stock WERE the top of the line CLASS it was great but today they’re just filler to the pro classes. I like the idea of class runoffs, get your $$$ trophy then go race to see how good you are dialing in the car and cutting a light. No boxes no electronics just you and your car, even little slow no buck racer has an equal chance to win. Just my opinion.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I have a bracket car too. You can now win Wally’s and even a state or national championships bracket racing. If that’s what you want to do there is a place for it. Saying no heads up runs is crazy. That’s one of the defining parts of the class.As I said before I’d get my A kicked in a heads up. So no heads up would benefit me. I’m still strongly against it. I’d rather keep trying to get there a little at a time. It doesn’t matter what you’re racing.(stock cars, offshore boats, motorcycles, go carts ect I’ve done all of those) Or what the rules are. Money has an advantage. Changing rules won’t change that. If I was to have a say. I’d say leave the rules alone. All of them. It’s probably too late to go back to rules from years ago. But they could stop changing them. That would save people money.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I've raced since early 70's. Went to Indy several times when you HAD to win class to run eliminator. BUT ALL CLASS winners went to the barn. Hell, one year there was 26 SS/LA in my class. A lot of good class racing.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I agree the head and improvements far outweigh the HP.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Just like the lifter rule change I would like to see because of failure (not because of performance) alot of the Super Stock guys wanted heads that were not leakers and not necessary faster.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

In that case just get rid of stock all together. If there is no difference between the 2 other then tire size why have it at all. One class. Take your stocker and bracket race it locally or turn it into a street car. Big savings there. Run the money racers at your own level. Problem solved
When this happens I’m out. It will be time for a new hobby. I love the performance aspect of our sport while it lasts

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

The AHFS and the "political influence" factoring is what determines so much of competitiveness for any combination. So why not do something to truly reduce the cost, like a limit on valve spring pressure? There is more technical challenge and expertise with more limits than with fewer.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I wish that I could "like" this more than once!

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Terry,
Since it seems getting lifters is a problem. Is the cam still OK? If so have looked for someone who can resurface those lifters?


Stan

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

The System has loopholes that need to be addressed.
This will not be popular but Pulling a combination Advertised HP backwards is not performance based. *** This might be correct for a few combinations but look at the HP on some of the popular cars now.
There goes my Christmas cards …

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

It appears that some on this site may be in the wrong class or running the wrong combination. To those, please pick something that fits your personal agenda and leave the silent majority alone.
Thank you,
Jim Grossi

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I'm hearing the rule change is "out of the question", which is a great thing.


Was in the shop with a legend yesterday, he's raced as long as I have lived. All he said was "them boys will keep on and they'll be in Super Stock soon."


The lifter change is NOT a solution. It won't prevent failures. Roller lifters fail, too. And it is just as catastrophic. It would require an entirely new lobe design, you don't just stick roller lifters in on the cam you have. Flat tappets can actually accelerate FASTER at a certain point. But then the roller comes into its own. If you change to roller lifters, you need different springs, and different pushrods. The stud mount rocker cars will snap rocker studs like twigs. The cars allowed 0.875" and 0.904" lifters will have access to better lobe profiles, and have fewer roller lifter failures.The stud mount rocker cars will also rip the rocker stud bosses out of the heads. Current valve spring technology will allow the use of lobes that will extend the RPM range, by 1,000 RPM.


The introduction of roller lifters will simply begin series of escalations that will take 3-5 years to develop, and cost thousands upon thousands of dollars. It will alter the factoring drastically. If anyone ever lets that genie out of the bottle, the class will be wrecked for years.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Without heads up races and class eliminations, Stock and Super Stock literally have ZERO reason to exist. Period.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Bravo, everyone knew the rules when they requested their permanent number years ago. While at the time I applauded the unlimited valve spring rule, it is a major reason contributing to runaway costs in stock eliminator. If you don’t agree with the rules OR heads up runs , JUST LEAVE ….run superstock, brackets ,….WHATEVER . ….Take your personal agenda with you as you close the door ……:):)

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Bubski can't believe this crazy train has derailed into a no "heads up" no performance based category !! Now back to lifters !! Imagine adding to the vegetable soup of stock classes with additional classes for cars with or without roller lifters ?? Bubski would like to present an example of this fine mess being pushed in Stock !! How about rU/SA the "r" being for the roller lifter designation !! Sooo!! how about f-U/SA ?? pretty self explanatory I believe !! The f-U/SA class will be 6 rounds at any class racer if they do this just because !! Cheers !!

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Sorry Bubski but I can't get behind *-*/SA, it's too close to something some woker would say for me.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Nope. Cam is junk. Lifters are junk. Oil pump is junk. Pistons? questionable if they can be saved. rod and main bearings, rings. All junk.
The problem is getting lifters that will last. Coating does not work. Tool steel on certain cams won't work. Seems only thing that will work (sometimes) are 15 year old lifters that are not available anymore.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Go back and read my post I am all for class eliminations. This is where the folks who have done the hard work and/or spent the money will be rewarded.
So on the other side...I read a lot here that stock is a dying thing..only the old guys are still running it. How do we get younger..how do we save it? Personally I'm fine with it just the way it is. I continue to work and spend to trying to get better and faster...but..I think if you talk to 100 talented bracket racers (sorry I used the "B" word" They will tell you..OK so I'm driving good, I'm dialing good and I lose third or fourth round because I had a heads up I didn't have a prayer to win. Its just food for discussion....

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Heads up racing in eliminations is just as, if not more important for most classracers. Its a great feeling to get your car ready for a heads up run during the eliminator, win it, then put it back in bracket mode to run next round. And for those that come out on the losing end, it gives them the drive to make their stuff faster.
Having Stock and Super Stock a heads up in class only would be a slow death to the sport to try to cater to bracket racers to be interested. They arent coming in even if it went to that.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Here's a good take on the lifter problem
https://youtu.be/Qt-RycUnoW4

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Mine are converting themselves, 3 have the plungers stuck in the bottom position. Other than that, they still look like new after 12 seasons.
I would think with the new solid lifters allowed rule a better ceramic lifter could be built as they wouldn't have to allow room for the plunger, just a thought.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Just a guess but prob very few are in market for ceramic lifters. ain't been a motor built since 85 with flat tappets in Detroit. Just a guess.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

So,..if you are set on being able to run roller lifters in a Stocker, there are almost 30 years worth of engine combinations in the NHRA Classification Guide that came from the factory WITH roller lifters, for you to choose from.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Gotta ask yourself WHY did OEM decide to go to rollers if flats are cheaper to make?

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

My guess is the change in oil chemistry...

But there is supposed to be remedies for that... (additives)...

So... that begs the question, what is the REAL REASON for the failures?
Self inflicted... (spring pressure)...?
Crappy material/ QC...?
Or some yet unknown quantity...

Inquiring minds would like to know...

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Well, I am certainly not privy to what the OEs were thinking in the mid 80s, but my guess would be for a fractional improvement in CAFE gas mileage, along with thin piston rings, EFI, low drag, thin engine oils, overdrive transmissions, attention to aerodynamics, serpentine belt arrangements lightweight items , like aluminum blocks and heads, plastic valve covers, intake plenums, aluminum master cylinder and calipers, plastic and aluminum body panels, aluminum radiators and heater cores, smaller displacement engines, cylinder deactivation systems, electric cooling fans, roller rocker arms, aluminum driveshafts, etc.
Hmmm, almost makes you want to built a later model car to enjoy all those benefits, isn`t it!

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Cummings went to roller lifters in the last few years, and they have had a lot of problems with lifter failure, and i heard its because of the oil, to get away from the high zinc oil.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Anybody ever tried using the old GM solid lifter part #5231585?
They are obsolete now, but they have a side orfice with a hardened puck on the face.
Just wondering what kind of spring pressure they would take.

Jim Cimarolli

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

Just FYI, I saw a lifter exactly like the one in the OP, during an online seminar. The diagnosis was EXCESSIVE amounts of ZDDP in the oil. Apparently, people are playing "chemist" with oils, without knowing what they're doing. And, of course, there's always those who think, "if a little is good, more is better, and too much is just right". Doesn't really work with additive packages in motor oil. Once you exceed a certain concentrations, additives such as ZDDP and moly disulfide are no long additives, but rather pollutants and contaminants. They cause damage, fall out of suspension (ever seen a 1/4" plus of gray mud in the bottom of your oil pan?) and clog oil filters.



It should be noted that, over the years, there have been multiple incidences of oil additive packages being incompatible with certain components, a prime example is that several years back, the Joe Gibbs oils were causing a specific DLC coating to fail in the NASCAR Cup series engines. The DLC flaked off in just a few laps.


Never been a huge fan of DLC to begin with, it is a very "picky" thing. It doesn't like certain materials (it cannot be used against cast iron), it doesn't like certain processes, the various versions are NOT all the same, and it doesn't like certain oils or additive packages.


I have not tried it personally, but many are saying "Oil Extreme" is a good additive, used correctly. However, as with anything else, it is NOT going to be compatible with every oil.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I’ve also read about issues relating to ring seal if one adds too much zinc to their oil.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

So...
Does someone make an oil with the proper additives package?
Looking for that "Goldilocks" zone...
Not too much...
Not too little...
But JUuuST RIGHT!

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I'm sure there are quite a few good choices on the market. Personally, I've had good luck with Driven oil in my engine so far. I used their break-in oil, br-30, and their semisynthetic racing oil, gp-1. Not super pricy, and seems to do a good job.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

One person you might talk to is Lake Speed Jr. He works at Total Seal, he's a tribologist.


I have had good success with Royal Purple. Others speak highly of Amsoil, which is an oil that David Vizard says works well with Oil Extreme. As Doug said, some have had good luck with the Driven products. I have also used both Lucas and Brad Penn successfully.

Re: Flat tappet lifter failure
 

I have used Renegade race oil 5/20 and 10/30 it only comes in semi-synthetic, I have used it for over 10 years with great results.

Darcy Clarke
6254
A/SA SS/EA