Re: index lowering
 

It is my understanding that AHFS was created and used for getting particularly advantageous combinations back in line with other combinations in the same class. So that A/SA was not littered exclusively by 1st generation Camaros, but so that all combos that were eligible to run A/SA overtime would fall in to line with one-another and those that put in the time and effort to excel would be able to do so, while others with less funds or without the same work ethic would fall behind. I'm good with that, it seems fair. Cars that can more easily take advantage of, or benefit more from rules changes or technology improvements should be penalized as different combos in the same class cannot keep up as the improvements given to some combinations are not viable for others. As I said, that seems to be the purpose of the AHFS.

It was not designed to punish those of you who work extremely hard and spend 10s of thousands of $$ on your program to make it quicker, qualify better, win class, and win heads up races should you have one. That is why the AHFS uses an aggregate average of every car in the country running that combination. If one person is excelling in that combination while others toil and struggle, that person should be rewarded for their hard work and dedication by being left alone, while the others are not punished for working hard to get under the index at all, like myself. To my understanding, that is the AHFS system in essence.

The artificial lowering of indexes makes no sense to me. Not only does it substantially raise the cost of entering the sport, but it rewards combinations that, if left alone, would be given HP and fall back into line with other combinations in their class.

If indexes had been lowered before this past season, I would never have built my stocker to begin with as a 24 year-old (25 now) on a shoe string budget. I believe the fastest I went all year this past year was MAYBE -.35 under and I had a ball. I hope they don't remove me from competition.

Re: index lowering
 

All lowering the indexes does is keep people like Dawson from competing. It also makes NHRA job easier by not policing the combo's that need HP adjustments whether up or down.
That's my take. People that qualify high will still be there, just not the bigger number under. Been there done that

Mark Lewis

Re: index lowering
 

This pretty much says it all Mark!

Re: index lowering
 

AFHS would work better if the Combos under .65 average got HP taken off automatically.

You should also have to have a Minimum and Maximum car count. Need at least 20 runs to get HP off. And take the Top 70% to add HP

Re: index lowering
 

Huge congratulations to Avery for looking at real numbers, though as he mentioned, may be skewed by people detuning to game the system.

For something like this that makes a major impact in how races turn out, the NHRA should have been doing (and publishing this) since day one. But sadly, the outcome they're looking for is 180 out from what racers want.

Re: index lowering
 

Last Data post maybe ��. Cause I am a man of my word, Herbie I did one better and looked at the last 5 years. Here is the simple version of the data. Note I removed any runs that were not below the index to limit the sample bias. Please look at the attachments as trying to transpose tables does not work very well. There are things to consider when looking at the data like weather conditions.

Year # of Cars On Q Sheet Top Qualifier Bottom Qualifier in Field Average under index Total Total Runs Counted Class Runs Average Class Runs Count

Year # of Cars On Q Sheet Top Qualifier Bottom Qualifier in Field Average under index Total Total Runs Counted Class Runs Average Class Runs Counted
2019 139 -1.762 -0.675 -0.883 690 -0.936
2020 129 -1.355 3.446 -0.794 474 -0.871
2021 132 -1.104 -0.208 -0.747 528 -0.774
2022 141 -1.690 -0.366 -0.853 682 -0.933
2023 139 -1.640 -0.599 -0.881 698 -0.946
2024 148 -1.626 -0.607 -0.822 722 -0.833

Re: index lowering
 

People seem to be missing the point that gaming of the AHFS is rampant resulting in the following problems:

1. The AHFS is not functioning as intended to bring parity
2. With so many cars letting off at 1000' its beginning to look like a .90 category and losing fan appeal.
3. Its not fun for performance oriented racers to detune their cars most of the year to lower their average so they can safely run fast on just a few runs each year.
4. Stock and SS are losing their appeal to performance oriented racers which may be hurting participation of long time racers
5. Due to weak tech, some racers are claiming combinations they do not have, but willing to hurt the HP rating on
6. If a racer decides to bomb an engine HP rating, many other racers are hurt financially and competitively through no fault of their own

I am sympathetic to those that are trying to race on a tight budget or chose a race car that hasn't had the same level of benefit of NHRA approved aftermarket parts. But I do appreciate any attempt by NHRA to rectify the above problems. I like lowering the stock indexs 3 tenths, with the same -.86 trigger, as a simple way to allow me to run the car fast and have more fun. That said, their are certainly numerous other tweeks the NHRA could do such as raising the trigger to -1.0 and lowering indexes less that could work.

Re: index lowering
 

Gee, where ever did you get that idea?

Re: index lowering
 

The AHFS worked fine when my combination got an additional 13 HP tacked on in a 4 year stretch. The problem arose when racers started lobbying for changes and you ended up with what we have now. Pretty much anyone that gets HP under the system as it stands now either doesn't care, is an idiot or just a really bad mistake.
I get everyone wants to go fast at Indy but it is really the only race where there is something on the line worth getting hit for and we don't even count that data!
Let's face it if you got a car running more than 1.20 under at Indy it needs refactoring if you're trying to establish parity.

Re: index lowering
 

NHRA can change whatever they want, but the AHFS will never work because the NHRA doesn?t incentivize racers enough to penalize themselves. It will only work if they have it at events like Indy, and that ruins all of the fun. Racers aren?t going to penalize themselves for no reason, and NHRA won?t fix combos as they need adjusted, so we will just continue to make meaningless tweaks to the system.

Re: index lowering
 

Years Ago,(Monty Bogan) I had a 74 Nova. 350/265 hp, While in Jim Marshall,s study hall one day we were looking at the classification guide and the engine blue print specs for an up coming test. I discovered a California camshaft option for my car, All other specs were the same and cam was slightly bigger, duration and lift were checked then.
Jim looked it over and said that looked pretty good to him as it was only 260hp. So I claimed the lower HP and was #1 qualifiers at Atlanta
Got to go thru a thorough inspection and I was only 48 under then to be #1. I thought I was a big dog then. But 2 weeks later I saw where the HP committee made both combos 275 hp.
Suddenly went from LSA to KSA,
Point being they had a HP committee that looked all the time and not once a year, Get ratings in line and let everybody run as fast as they want.
Thats the story of the day For Bogan and Mark Alvey lol

Re: index lowering
 

Don't touch indexes

AHFS - make the average 1 second or faster for adjustments and only runs 1.20 or quicker trigger an immediate review.

Now you have helped the slower guys make index and the faster guys can go fast if they want to

Re: index lowering
 

Avery - great work and really awesome to see actual data get brought to the discussion.

There's certainly been a drop-off to 2015 levels after the initial post-IHRA growth.

SS STK
2015 945 1,442
2018 1,130 1,476
2019 1,139 1,472
2022 968 1,304
2023 979 1,320

Re: index lowering
 

As I read through all these posts, not one has said Stock and Super Stock is a performance category with a lot of advancements made in the last ten to twenty years to raise the performance levels! We that are reasonable quick make adjustments to ?slow down? our hot rods to keep from hitting the combos. I used to love the races where we could ?learn? what our hot rods wanted. Not anymore, as it?s all about protecting the combo, while some ?millionaire? goes out and behaves like a teenager in a whorehouse with a wallet full of cash!
If we can?t seem to keep these combos in line, move weight breaks to one pound breaks and keep the indexes the same! Separate the men from the boys, so to speak. Heads-ups will give hits and adjust accordingly!

Re: index lowering
 

I think we should reimagine and in SS, separate the carbs from injected. Lets stop looking to what was to that which can be (he- he). And i forogt, you can lie to nhra and tell them its really a carb. Now that was funny.

Volkman

Re: index lowering
 

Sean in the cars that fast enough to intentionally slow down represents lots of time and money to get there. Lets look at the other end of the spectrum. I have heard stories (back in the 50s and 60s) where you could go to your car dealer, buy a car and be under the index. Maybe that exists today but I am not aware of it.
Here is another way to grow our sport! Add stock eliminator classes just for entry level people where they can buy a car (inexpensive car) and be under the index and then NHRA promotes it in the media. Ray

Re: index lowering
 

WOW! And we could call it "Junior Stock"! What a concept!
Let's just split Stock in half. SS too for that matter. No more 8 second cars racing 15 second cars (I wonder how they sell that to their insurance carrier). NHRA apparently doesn't have a problem adding different Eliminators to the program. They could run "Jr. Stock" right after the Juniors and Index cars and right before the Snowmobiles!

Re: index lowering
 

I think they should leave the indexes alone.. In my opinion it certainly tightens things for racers that are close to running the index. I understand that racers pride themselves in spending as much money as possible to be able to go a second under or more, and that means something to them, but that isn't the case for everyone. At the end of the day, its a bracket race 99% of the time. There may be certain combos that are more prominent and have more cars running the same class where you might race heads up more frequently, but i can tell you that i have had 2 heads up runs in eliminations since 2004 (one was out of division). Not enough times for me to justify spending 10s of thousands of dollars to try and go faster when I'm going to end up having to put a dial-in on the window anyways. I know some reading this can take this as an insult, or out of context, but know that I'm not trying to insult any hard working racer who loves to set records. Lets just say when I go to a race, my ultimate goal isn't to qualify #1 or to win class.. I'm more focused on winning the race, and if i lose heads up during those 6/7 rounds so be it. As infrequent as that is, ill take my chances.

Lets be honest, whether they lower the indexes or not, the same racers that are on top of the qualifying sheet will remain on top of the qualifying sheet.. I think the negative affect on the racers who are closer to running the index is being overlooked.

Re: index lowering
 

I have drag raced for years but am new in the stock world.
I sure dont want to see a change in indexes while I am still testing and chasing et/hp for my combo.
I would think if they want to make a change, then use the mechanism you have in place and adjust the threshold up. Use ahfs at an earlier point to hit the combos/competitors that they feel need the hit. Use the analytics to hit the combos that show they are equally as quick to the 1000ft and do not drive it out and show their hand. The data is there. It will show what combos need some massaging and what combos seem ok.

With all that said... watching Indy with the ahfs out of the equation and how far under folks were going, this was coming.

Re: index lowering
 

Welcome to my life as I am living it now and always have 110HP, now 105HP, but when I wasn't racing it 99HP. (Same car, same data, same factory HP rating, same Index, different class, and zero same combo performance data to even compare to...every pass on the exact combo they have are just my runs from the model year forward).

The differences I can find is the shipping wt. listed in the guide is slightly lighter (124 lbs.), than the shipping wt. published in the brochure leading to a lower natural class of DF/S instead of EF/S by 15 lbs., the eventual combining of the FWD classes (leading to a downgrade from EF/SA, FF/SA and GF/SA (where I ran it up 1 class wt. Break at 110HP in the early-mid 90s), as it called out for a natural class fit of FF/SA then. But the issue has always been the shipping weight listed and someone pulling the factoring out of their butt instead of actually being real life performance based data...11 hp or 6 hp on a factory rated 99hp is bovine feces dead wrong.

Don't pile on 3/10ths index reduction without correcting the glaring issues and kill off my combo please, as I am pedaling as fast as I can. And I am thrashing and spending all that I can and more just to make the attempt to keep up and still pay the entry fees and fuel costs to keep attending every event and compete in that I can get the car to.

My lobbying power is small, my mouth is big I know, but my struggles are real, and I am outgunned as is, piling more on top of it is not the answer. These are category wide issues, pleasing the minority at the top has large effects to the classes at the bottom...huge effects.

Definitely in my case specific potential combo killing effects.

Re: index lowering
 

it will just mean i am .30 under instead of .50 lol

Re: index lowering
 

I will add another fact (as some could say or be thinking I am not working hard enough), last winter I worked my heart and fingers to the bone and dieted the car down for the first time ever to the natural class that the guide says I fit (DF/S), and I had just run -.797 under at Pomona (the only place it has ever run those kind of numbers (both in 1995 and 2023). And at the very bottom (weight wise, bare minimum wt. allowed), of the DF/S class, it missed running the index by a number of tenths in testing, so I piled the weight back on properly and covered up the DF/S Class w/ black tape until I find a way to make it legally a lot faster. So, I am working hard and spending more to apply available off the shelf or hand created tech that the rule book now allows that was not always available to my combo. It is like the car, a slow and methodical process.

And no Billy...I think we both love racing those 8-9 second cars w/ much slower rides. Next to sex and watching my children and grand children grow into productive adults, it is the most fun I have ever had in my 67 yrs. of life!

An A/SA class car has a 4lb./hp Weight to HP factor ...an EF/S Class car it is 25.00lb. (Or 21.00/HP difference). Factoring 6HP/99Hp car=150 lbs. Total extra. 16lbs vs 150lbs. Cry me a river fast guys...take the hp hit and still run a second plus under and leave me and mine alone as you can still drive around and away from me on the top end if you have room left by me at the tree...I want you to go as fast as you possibly can go in the other lane, just not at my expense of not making the index without (either one of us potentially), cheating or risking being judged illegal or out of spec. to the rulebook.

The 2 races that make me get up on the wheel the most at the line are heads up in class, and the fastest and slowest in the category (that day), races matchups.

Those are the most fun I can have w/ my clothes on at my age! Win or lose I am having a blast doing so. Life will be gone in the blink of an eye, do not ruin it.

Re: index lowering
 

Correct Fleming and I just ran .440 under at Vegas (picking up 2/10ths on Q3 due to the head wind of the prior day went away), in the best air I have ever raced in
there, and where I race the most, and due to the altitude I already get a 3/10ths altitude correction bump up from 17.45 to 17.75.

So, the math on mine just is not there to take away 2 or 3 10th's and still make the sheet at least under in the usual really junk corrected D.A. found there and that at 115 miles from my house, is my home track. (My usual there is -.126--.226 under there).

I am not going to even pay the entry fees (not to mention all the other costs incurred), if priced out wondering if I can even run the index if the wind changes direction or temp rises a few degrees. Fugettaboutit.

Re: index lowering
 

Go ahead and drop the indexes .2, but if you go 1.00 under it is an automatic trip to the barn for teardown. Will those fast guys still want to go that fast if they have to show why they go so fast.

Re: index lowering
 

As far as indexes go does it really matter what they do we will all still go lol.

Re: index lowering
 

Common sense says that the problem is at the top of the sheet with the fast guys wanting to go faster without penalty which is totally understandable and should be encouraged.. fair point. So why screw over the guys at the bottom of the sheet to fix a top of the sheet problem?

If the top of the sheet wants .2 or .3 tenths then move the trigger at the TOP of the sheet.. make 1.20 a review trigger. 1.50 permanent with tear down.

Leave the little guy alone.

Lowering indexes=
diminished car counts which hurts the tracks,
hurts the car count at local organizations that run off the indexes
hurts the wallet of those dumb enough to hang around.

Re: index lowering
 

I’m not sure how this is done, would it be 2 tenths across the board? I’m trying to follow Gary’s opposition. Is it that 2 tenths to a 800hp car is a lot less than 2 tenths to his 100hp ride or would it be adjusted down per class? I can see problems any way you look at it. Maybe change the trigger from single car runs to the average for the combo. That way no one person is responsible for the hit but the entire group is. (Could cause a lot of movement to combo’s with low averages )

Re: index lowering
 

2tenths to a 1000 HP COPO is nothing. 2 tenths to Gary's car might as well be 2 minutes.
Look at it from a percentage point of view, need to make up 2 tenths in a 1000 HP COPO? Make 10-20 more HP. 10-20 more HP to a 1000 HP combo? A drop in the bucket. Need to make up 2 tenths in a 100 HP Neon? Make 10 more HP.
10 HP to 1000 HP? One percent. 10 HP to 100 HP? Ten percent. What's it going to take for Gary to make 10 percent more HP?
The powers that be never think of E.T.s or HP in this respect. That's why the majority of the cars in the fields are fast cars.

Re: index lowering
 

I see more problems locking out the slower guys from earning the same amount of points from round wins. (Changed my comments above)

Re: index lowering
 

Now, since the suggested change(s), is not based on individual combo real life performance data throughout the category down to each class and each indiv. combo, let me throw out an equally crazy idea...institute the changes while allowing any class and any combo the choice to dial (using the trusty shoe polish bottle), above their index an equal
amount in all cases except an in class heads up race, and I will withdraw all my complaints already stated.

Sounds crazy right? Just as crazy as the original proposal to me. But, I am all for it. I cannot dial up...but you are attempting to magically dial me down and possibly out of competition currently.

I have said everything there is to say here (to plead my particular case as a minority class member and outlier I fully realize), and still no poll I have seen or
been notified of yet to be found to
participate in officially by NHRA.

Worse yet, nobody here has yet named a single name on who to contact to be heard officially before any vote is conducted concerning the suggested changes. Minority vs. Minority 2024, how will it all shake out for 2025?

Leave it alone or change it big for 1 or both, everyone will be affected if it is 1 blanket change for all in both good and bad ways. The AHFS was supposed to be a cure all. It was evidently just a bill of goods sold that promised all & settled nothing due to fear of a tiny bit of weight added to one end of the spectrum and a lot to the other.

We live in a data driven and ruled society and age, let the real life past performance data drive the changes and not the whim or votes of human lobbyists drive the proposed and instituted changes, in a real life supposed "performance based racing category!" Then, review every class and every combo (one-by-one as requested and when properly requested in accordance with existing rules, instead of waving hands and saying "you do not qualify, it is a moot subject" to get the data corrected. And if it is corrected, and it is real life past performance based, then take the time to explain why, who, and when. And look at any and all evidence presented and available before making a final decision.

I will gladly pay any required costs (T & M basis), incurred to do that at least once and if it gets it right once and for all...as it would be a lot cheaper than the current alternative.

BTW fast guys...I am the slowest guy in the slowest class in the category, but there is also at least 3 in my class that have raced at Indy and shown that they can run equally as fast (index vs index), (2 K brothers and a very fast yellow slow car can all scream at Indy and have shown so recently), as almost any of the big dogs can when no AHFS is on, and when your indexes are dropped, they get
to show their stuff more often and regularly too, unintended results may just rear their heads when they do, if you give them the same index drop. And that is who I am thrashing to catch up to is others within my own class that are so far ahead already (as mis-matched as we are in our combos), that I don't know if I have enough years left on the planet to even catch up to if I work 24/7/365
on my stuff and spend a fortune to catch.

Re: index lowering
 

You need to contact your division rep

Re: index lowering
 

Huge thanks!! That is indeed a small % of total runs. Gives an interesting perspective IMO.

Re: index lowering
 

I do know Billy and the install and termination of the harness yet to be completed has (with some of the parts being given/traded to me...TY Greg Hogue)...upwards of about 3K in materials, and a ton of research and personal labor because nobody has an off the shelf just go buy it solution, just to attempt to equalize my turtle (still unproven if it does, and we shall soon see if it does), from track-to-track lean it out enough so elevation tracks allows me to use the tech avail. to go faster at them.

At -.126 under (BUT, still competitive and still willing to face another in a class race too, I am happy to be in the show, I am still far from satisfied, will still try to find that ellusive measly 10 more HP legally, but the across the board
Index drop proposal sends me away to just bracket race a class car and takes
me completely out of the show at
present.

And I thank you for listening and explaining it better than I have as I felt like I was just howling into the wind. It was making me wonder if I should just stop on the Holley ECU install and sell it before my first fire up. I cannot afford to just waste 3K at this point if the across the board 3 tenths change went into effect and put me above index.

If all our theory works out to reality in the end...those are BIG IF'S, and huge learning curves, that are going to still need a bunch of dyno time to get sorted out too raising the costs incrementally much higher still I may turn a slow just barely there car into a mid field qualifyer, instead of the near bottom rock it is now, but...I need and am a realist, I will see that when it happens and need to deal with reality.

I cannot pay entry fees and associated costs or attend events knowing in advance I risk not running the index at with the car not broke and running perfect. That currently leaves only Pomona or a sea level track. Not many of those left on the left coast. And I can attest finding 10 Hp (while currently penalized 6Hp for no known reason...at present), is expensive. I am already out classed, this proposal of change throws me out of category if it goes into effect.

So there is nothing I can do but yell loud and attempt (and pray to be heard and actually considered), to be heard at this
point in time. The whole thing was a shock to me as I was in process of installing my new Terminator X in the pits at Las Vegas Saturday and Sunday.

It stopped my progress Saturday night at 11:00 PM to lobby after I saw this thread, as I must deal in reality not wishes and maybe theory, packed up the car, put it back in storage 10 miles from the track (did not complete the installation), drove the 100 miles home to argue my case here and at least maybe be heard out as to why I am so against the proposal.

My plan currently is to still finish it before our last bracket bash of the season, test it with shoe polish racing, get it in learn mode on a base tune, then bring the car home and arrange some dyno time to get it close, and myself learning about tap-tap laptop tuning. And as everyone knows that is a real learning process that isn't instantly real world easy.

This would be 2 steps forward possibly 30 steps back without any index drop, but totally eliminated with one. JUST TOTALLY PRICED OUT I will call it.

Re: index lowering
 

Our D2 SCRAC rep reported that the D2 vote was strongly in favor of no change to the index's.

Re: index lowering
 

I hear the same results for all divisions Mike.

Re: index lowering
 

[QUOTE=Billy Nees;705437]WOW! And we could call it "Junior Stock"! What a concept!
/QUOTE]

Billy I have heard Junior stock mentioned here in the past but I have not been in Stock very long so I know nothing of it. Could you explain how it worked and what was wrong with the concept for us newbies?

Did it have at least one combination where you could buy a cheap car and be under the index?

Ray

Re: index lowering
 

[QUOTE=dragracerray;705471] Junior Stock was an NHRA eliminator, from about 1965 to 1971.
The idea was for home built, backyard cars to be raced on a part time basis.
The top classes of SS , down through A/Stock, were being dominated by Jenkins, Sox, Booth, Vanke, and various dealer and factory sponsored rides.
Jr.Stock was handicapped by the national records though. If there was any soft classes, they usually didn't last very long! It soon became just as sophisticated as their SS big brothers.

National event finals were flat out and a lot of them became the new national record.

Also holding a national record was a big deal, where points were given out for ET and /or MPH.
A lot of the popular class records got beat down at the fast tracks such as Cecil County , Fremont, etc.
If you could run a few tenths off the record at your local track in the summertime, you had a good chance of winning some pocket money.... all the while, running flat out to the finish line.

I'm sure someone will pick it up from here, as to Jr.Stk 's demise

****
This thread was starting quite a few years back, by Mr. William Cole, who's still out there snapping and posting pics here on C/R

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-stock.201085/

Re: index lowering
 

All of us are painfully aware of combinations that are absurdly, preposterously factored!!! The administration and management of current AHFS policy has done little to address those inequities in spite of the assurances we’ve received through the years and in some cases has even exacerbated some by taking off additional horsepower.

Raising the index floor across the board by two tenths may somewhat camouflage combinations allowed to run in the wrong class. However it will do nothing to level the playing field, this can only be accomplished by factoring combinations solely on the HP potential of each accepted engine. NHRA Tech have the courage to take the problem head on, this current proposal will only hurt entry level participation when we should be doing everything in our power to encourage it.

My vote: Not only No, but F? NO!!!

Re: index lowering
 

Thank you JR for being so eloquent with someone so ignorant.- His response time is a mere handful of minutes-is he obsessed with getting his opinion out there ? I understand why he doesn't use his name now that someone jogged my memory-Ed Bigley -what was it that he did to gather so much notoriety ??

Re: index lowering
 

I recall his charming personality got him booted off Yellowbullet, and that's an accomplishment.