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-   -   HP on Monday? (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=89128)

J.R. Haddad 03-03-2025 08:19 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Sam, I don't want you to spend a lot of time waiting for the results of the
teardown. We have all been waiting for years.

J.R.

Larry Hill 03-03-2025 09:31 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
I like the delicate dance that has to be done in the AHFS to go fast, win Class and do not offend. Joe and Hal are masters of the game.

On the reduction side of the AHFS, NHRA does not follow the rules as written at least that has been my experience sometimes.

HR9121 03-03-2025 09:40 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 710095)
I like the delicate dance that has to be done in the AHFS to go fast, win Class and do not offend. Joe and Hal are masters of the game.

On the reduction side of the AHFS, NHRA does not follow the rules as written at least that has been my experience sometimes.

I agree Mr Larry only problem is when you have people with your combo that's not quite so diligent as you are sir it can be a problem if you get my drift. That's what ruined my 350 flat top combo.

Larry Hill 03-03-2025 10:12 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
We, us and some more folks were trying to get power off a combination and had everything in place until the last race, it was a qualified race. He qualified and raised the average enough to not qualify for a reduction. He came to race and did with no hard feelings. I think he went several rounds at that race and I was a DNQ cause mine would not run fast enough to get in. Sometimes it just does not work out.

After a race that we went fast I got 29 hp in a 22 lbs class on Tuesday. If you do the math it will scare you.

MadFab_cody 03-03-2025 10:59 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyn Smith (Post 710082)
Most SS and Stock racers are not concerned about the indexes or AHFS. At least not in Div. 3 where only 10% of the registered racers voted for, or against a change.

When and where did this take place? You would think with all the money they have to throw around in year end bonuses that they would hire a decent IT group to keep everything under one roof, rather than several sites with some of the worst user interface I’ve had to deal with..

Dave Ficacci 03-03-2025 11:03 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MadFab_cody (Post 710100)
When and where did this take place? You would think with all the money they have to throw around in year end bonuses that they would hire a decent IT group to keep everything under one roof, rather than several sites with some of the worst user interface I?ve had to deal with..

That was going to be my point. It would take them approx 10 minutes of coding to add a Q&A to each racers NHRA Event Reg home page. Upon login you would be prompted to vote via a pop up.

TILBURG 03-03-2025 12:09 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 710095)
I like the delicate dance that has to be done in the AHFS to go fast, win Class and do not offend. Joe and Hal are masters of the game.

On the reduction side of the AHFS, NHRA does not follow the rules as written at least that has been my experience sometimes.


MR HILL
So your saying you enjoy running your car under the AHFS? So running you car based off a Average of everyone else's performance is fun? What happens when its 5th round and by
Into the final and your Average is high and your heads up. Maybe im wrong and everyone enjoys this. But they already have a couple classes for this not sure why they need 2 more.Would this type of racing have drawn you into the class when you first started? You have a very fast car i would think you would want to show the reward of your hard work and money spent more often.

Doug Hoven 03-03-2025 02:06 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
I understand there are racers unhappy with the AHFS. However, no one really proposes a solution other than just "get rid of it." I really don't think that is the answer. Does that mean we just leave every single combination at the current horsepower rating and let them run however fast they want without the threat of "ruining" the combo? Possibly go back to the days before the AHFS, where a combo got a fixed number, say 5hp, at NHRA's discretion, no matter if the car was in a 25lb class or a 5lb class? Lowering the indexes is generally an unpopular idea. I know it would probably never happen, but I think that cars making very fast runs, especially when it is fast enough for an instant hp hit, need to be torn down to verify that the car that is about to "ruin" the combo is, at the very least, legal.

James Perrone 03-03-2025 02:50 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven (Post 710121)
I understand there are racers unhappy with the AHFS. However, no one really proposes a solution other than just "get rid of it." I really don't think that is the answer. Does that mean we just leave every single combination at the current horsepower rating and let them run however fast they want without the threat of "ruining" the combo? Possibly go back to the days before the AHFS, where a combo got a fixed number, say 5hp, at NHRA's discretion, no matter if the car was in a 25lb class or a 5lb class? Lowering the indexes is generally an unpopular idea. I know it would probably never happen, but I think that cars making very fast runs, especially when it is fast enough for an instant hp hit, need to be torn down to verify that the car that is about to "ruin" the combo is, at the very least, legal.

That?s what just happened NHRA made a decision
I think the reason why the decision was made this way was that the fuel check wasn?t kosher
There was no fuel check that round
He made the run realized what happened going too fast and then the Fuel came up bad
That sort of like manipulating the AHFS
So NHRA put the hammer down because the fuel check issue was questionable I think
It?s a shame. The car should?ve been tore down
Whether the fuel was bad or not, and everyone would be happier, I guess

Mike Pearson 03-03-2025 03:00 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven (Post 710121)
I understand there are racers unhappy with the AHFS. However, no one really proposes a solution other than just "get rid of it." I really don't think that is the answer. Does that mean we just leave every single combination at the current horsepower rating and let them run however fast they want without the threat of "ruining" the combo? Possibly go back to the days before the AHFS, where a combo got a fixed number, say 5hp, at NHRA's discretion, no matter if the car was in a 25lb class or a 5lb class? Lowering the indexes is generally an unpopular idea. I know it would probably never happen, but I think that cars making very fast runs, especially when it is fast enough for an instant hp hit, need to be torn down to verify that the car that is about to "ruin" the combo is, at the very least, legal.

I totally agree with everything in this post. As far as tear down goes I think that is a thing of the past. There is very few tech personnel to do a proper tear down. I guess it could happen for a 1.30 under pass.
There are a lot of different opinions on our style of racing. Some race to be the fastest. Some race to be the farthest under the index. Some race to be the best driver. Some race for fun. Some race for a living. Some have plenty of disposable income. Some have limited budgets. There should be a balance between all of that to keep the sport "healthy". The AHFS is one of those tools to try to keep a balance. As it is formatted now the racers are in control of the destiny. You can choose to run fast if you can find a combo that is under factored and run at the top of the sheet. If you do that then you have to accept the consequence when you get HP. I can tell you that the combo I race cannot reach the trigger for instant HP no matter how much money or hard work is applied. I am a bottom of the sheet qualifier. I have a good car and a decent engine. I strive to be good at driving and dialing to go rounds. I do get crushed in a heads up when that happens but I dont complain. I take the defeat and move on. I am one with a limited budget. I do all my own work on my car, engine, transmission and drive train. Just my $.02

DG 03-03-2025 03:59 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
"I understand there are racers unhappy with the AHFS. However, no one really proposes a solution other than just "get rid of it."

Doug, I disagree. Below are a few of the possible solutions that have been discussed between NHRA and the SRA:

>Bring back the mineshaft rule
>Increase the review trigger to -1.2 under
>Raise the AHFS HP trigger to -1.0 under average
>Waive the AHFS during all class runoffs
>Lower indexes
>Provide incentives for top qualiiers such as lane choice

I would support any of these solutions. Unfortunately, NHRA hasn't made adjustments and seems to think the AHFS is working well in its current form.

Darin Grossi

Frank Castros 03-03-2025 08:07 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
I'm an old school retired racer without a dog in the fight but in my humble opinion isn't lowering the indexes the most efficient way to repair this?
Also no AFHS in effect for heads up runs and Class Elimination events. Performance is the cornerstone of Class Racing. Please restore it.

GUMP 03-03-2025 09:09 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Castros (Post 710137)
Also no AFHS in effect for heads up runs and Class Elimination events.

This is a recipe for some racers to dominate for all eternity...

Doug Hoven 03-03-2025 11:01 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Castros (Post 710137)
I'm an old school retired racer without a dog in the fight but in my humble opinion isn't lowering the indexes the most efficient way to repair this?
Also no AFHS in effect for heads up runs and Class Elimination events. Performance is the cornerstone of Class Racing. Please restore it.

As far as lowering the indexes is concerned, I personally don?t think it?s a great idea. If it happens, it happens. However, not all combos are going to recover no matter how much time and money you throw at them. I know that most don?t really care about the ?odd ball? slow cars that would be hardest hit by the indexes, but it?s flat out not fair to them. And NHRA has been pretty touch and go when it comes to asking for horsepower off.

Turning off the AHFS for class eliminations and heads up runs would really just be a glorified loophole around the exact times the AHFS is designed to work itself out.

I am not against the mineshaft rule. There are times when the weather creates fantasyland conditions that really can?t be used in determining how fast someone can go.

SDmopar 03-04-2025 12:27 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
[QUOTE=GUMP;710140]This is a recipe for some racers to dominate for all

If you reset back to all original hp ratings the AHFS is not needed.

If people are concerned about parity then leave it alone but fix the way reductions are looked at. The current system is the best way to try to manage the parity situation. It does not adjust the combos that got excessively adjusted before the current system that?s really the only thing that requires adjustment. Somebody goes and smacks a combo there should be away to bring it back sometime.

Tear downs are probably not going to increase. Not enough $$, time, or experience.

GTX JOHN 03-04-2025 01:14 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
I do not like the idea of lowering the indexes

When I came back to racing Stock (Bad accident / Boat racing)
in early 90's, It was several years before I could run 3 tenths under.

If the index was 3 tenths faster, we would have quit as we would not
have had the budget or knowledge back then to compete. I am sure we are not
the only ones who took a couple of years to learn the ropes.

Even now a number of cars including one of mine would have had
to been parked a couple years ago if the indexes were faster.


.

RULER 03-04-2025 03:51 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
So to answer the question, Next time this driver/car enters a race NHRA tech should do a complete inspection of this car and engine, that would end the complaining. If it passes great if it doesn?t then it should be reversed.

rboyle 03-04-2025 05:31 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Lowering the indexes will be the least fair way to ?fix? what honestly isn?t broken. How would the 1969 Camaro 350/255 combo feel about donating anotjer tenth to fix it if it?s an across the board thing?
There are lots of combo?s that didn?t benefit from some of the upgrades or have already had adjustments because of the rules. The 302 Ford 2 bbl combo?s all took a pretty good beating too a couple years ago. Shave another tenth off of them after most of them have been beaten up is also silly.
The system should be harsher to weed out the softer combo?s if the tenth across the board is the idea. 2 reviews a year, -1.20 auto hit, no free pass in Class elims or Indy. That will get the softer combo?s in line faster.
Personal indexes like in Comp are a nightmare to manage especially for 100 plus car fields and there are ways around it for teams with multiple cars or drivers. So the recent offender would now just not run H/SA and run G/SA and be fast again for example but everyone else with that combo can still be fast in FGH and when that same offender beats up all 3 then he?s the only one in EFG? It?s not as easy as it sounds. Also he can just switch drivers and the car is back in FGH if he has a 2 car team like some do.
Plus you?d have to police yourself and your competitor like at Indy. Hence the Complicated Eliminator

GUMP 03-04-2025 07:29 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SDmopar (Post 710150)
If you reset back to all original hp ratings the AHFS is not needed.

Really? All I see is more disaster. There would be so many combinations moved up and down the ladder with this change that I have no clue who would end up on top!

1347 03-04-2025 08:57 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
[QUOTE=SDmopar;710150]
Quote:

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 710140)
This is a recipe for some racers to dominate for all

If you reset back to all original hp ratings the AHFS is not needed.

If people are concerned about parity then leave it alone but fix the way reductions are looked at. The current system is the best way to try to manage the parity situation. It does not adjust the combos that got excessively adjusted before the current system that?s really the only thing that requires adjustment. Somebody goes and smacks a combo there should be away to bring it back sometime.

Tear downs are probably not going to increase. Not enough $$, time, or experience.

How does bringing the HP back to the original advertised fix this? There are some combos that are rated 40+ hp above the advertised rating that still run 1 second under, and there are others 10hp less than than their rating that can't run a second under. You would have a full 1.0 swing putting these back.

Lowering the indexes would only help the fast combos. A 1.3 under combo like the 255hp 350 would now be a 1.0 under combo, and other combos that are .9 under combos would be now .6 under.
An award for a fast combo to not have to trigger the afhs, but no way for a slower combo to ever have a chance.

It's a complicated process, and 1 solution doesn't fix it.

Stan Weiss 03-04-2025 09:41 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GTX JOHN (Post 710151)
I do not like the idea of lowering the indexes

When I came back to racing Stock (Bad accident / Boat racing)
in early 90's, It was several years before I could run 3 tenths under.

If the index was 3 tenths faster, we would have quit as we would not
have had the budget or knowledge back then to compete. I am sure we are not
the only ones who took a couple of years to learn the ropes.

Even now a number of cars including one of mine would have had
to been parked a couple years ago if the indexes were faster.


.


I am an outsider, and have no skin in the game.


RAISE the indexes 2 or 3 tenths and then let the AHPS do the rest.


Stan

Rick J 03-04-2025 10:11 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
The index system had been in place since the mid 70's, and there's been about a half second reduction in index in the 50 years since.

If you can't pick up a hundredth per year over the last half century, you either can't do the engine work yourself to keep up, or are too cheap to write the check for one, maybe the easy way out (bracket racing) is for you.

SDmopar 03-04-2025 10:19 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
[QUOTE=1347;710158]
Quote:

Originally Posted by SDmopar (Post 710150)

How does bringing the HP back to the original advertised fix this? There are some combos that are rated 40+ hp above the advertised rating that still run 1 second under, and there are others 10hp less than than their rating that can't run a second under. You would have a full 1.0 swing putting these back.

Lowering the indexes would only help the fast combos. A 1.3 under combo like the 255hp 350 would now be a 1.0 under combo, and other combos that are .9 under combos would be now .6 under.
An award for a fast combo to not have to trigger the afhs, but no way for a slower combo to ever have a chance.

It's a complicated process, and 1 solution doesn't fix it.

My point I?m eluding to is the AHFS works well and is a simple consistent protocol to help create parity. If all combos were reset to original they would all have a chance to be judged by a non biased consistent system. The current flaw is that the Combos overly corrected by the previous ways have no way of getting reduced. The simple fix would be to correct the bottom. I feel the best way to do this would be.


Reductions must be formally submitted.

To be considered, the following benchmarks must be met:

No more than 2 runs of -1.0 second under in a season.

Cannot have received HP additions in the last 3 years.

At least 20 runs per season for the last 2 seasons.

Total average of combination under -.65 for the season.

Reduction percentages:

Average of -.65 to -.55: 2% reduction.

Average of -.54 and under: 3% reduction.

It should not be easy to get HP off. But the separation in the top 2 cars of every combo in each class show you there is a massive discrepancy in ratings. It?s a performance class and we all want to race heads up. The simple fact is that the bottom 80% in each combination will not be competitive nor should they against the top.

I feel sticks and autos should be combined. Average the HP if there is a difference. Less classes and more heads up races with get the parity thing fixed real fast.

Bobby Fazio 03-04-2025 10:46 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Lower all the auto indexes to match the stick indexes. Long overdue.

Bobby Lundholm 03-04-2025 11:12 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Who are we saving these cars and combos for? Everyone talks about having to save their combo and protecting it.....for what? for who? Like it or not we don't have the longest fuse left on our class, and the more we bitch and complain to NHRA the shorter it gets. They have cut our fields in half, don't do tech anymore, and what's next inviting us not to show up anymore?
This agreeing to let off with another racer in a heads up race to "save" their combo is absurd. Run the cars like they are supposed to run and if you get hp good for you, you did something right to make your car fast.

Rick J 03-04-2025 11:24 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Lundholm (Post 710166)
Who are we saving these cars and combos for? Everyone talks about having to save their combo and protecting it.....for what? for who? Like it or not we don't have the longest fuse left on our class, and the more we bitch and complain to NHRA the shorter it gets. They have cut our fields in half, don't do tech anymore, and what's next inviting us not to show up anymore?
This agreeing to let off with another racer in a heads up race to "save" their combo is absurd. Run the cars like they are supposed to run and if you get hp good for you, you did something right to make your car fast.

An index at 330ft., 660ft., 1000ft., 1320ft. takes care of that.

JP1738 03-04-2025 11:28 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
I kinda like the idea of resetting all the factored HP and leaving AHFS in place. For a year or so, utter chaos, but after that, combos will be back in line again so long as AHFS is enforced and taken seriously. Maybe we look at it where we reset it every 10 years or so. I think that'd be pretty cool. I would suddenly be able to set the world on fire as I'd get 52 hp back overnight. I and my fellow 305 Malibu compatriots would inevitably beat the hp rating back up to where it is now or maybe a little lower. But this would solve all of the issues with combos that have been factored to death and killed off. Imagine if you could press reset and bring all of those classics back and let AHFS bring parity back over a short period (1-2 years).

Just a thought. We may even get a look at this with the new IHRA. If they start from scratch as far as factored hp is concerned with an AHFS system or similar, it'd be absolutely insane for about 6 months until everybody beats the hp up and complete parity is restored reviving older combos. We could see a real renaissance.

Jack Matyas 03-04-2025 11:42 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Fazio (Post 710164)
Lower all the auto indexes to match the stick indexes. Long overdue.

Perhaps you're not aware that some already exist - all F/S classes are alike .Doesn't sound like much but this is in Stock , S/S , SS/GT .Turns out that is a lot of classes .

Larry Hill 03-04-2025 11:49 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
MR TILBURG

First of all let me thank you for all of the motivation you have provided me with all the years we were trying to play catch up to your engine customers. You produce a fine quality product with product support, we were in the Barn together at Indy one year.

My job is to win the war, If I have to loose a battel to give me a better chance at winning the war I will take the set back.
I love heads up races it give my opponent and my self an opportunity to screw up royally. I like being the slower car. Most times the faster car will be a tad late at the start.

How ever the rules package is I will race with it.

j gardiner 03-04-2025 11:54 AM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
It wouldn?t make sense to go back to the original hp ratings. There is already been 50+ years of evolution. Why would we go backwards to end back up at the same point again.

JP1738 03-04-2025 12:07 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by j gardiner (Post 710173)
It wouldn?t make sense to go back to the original hp ratings. There is already been 50+ years of evolution. Why would we go backwards to end back up at the same point again.

Ideally to give combos that have been factored out of existence a chance to come back. And for the complete and utter chaos it would bring in the meantime. It would be glorious. mfrs out here running 2 seconds under for a race or two just because they suddenly could. It'd be wild. No it's not gonna happen, but good lord would it be something to behold

Paul Precht 03-04-2025 12:29 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
[QUOTE=JP1738;710174]Ideally to give combos that have been factored out of existence a chance to come back. And for the complete and utter chaos it would bring in the meantime. It would be glorious. mfrs out here running 2 seconds under for a race or two just because they suddenly could. It'd be wild. No it's not gonna happen, but good lord would it be something to behold[/Q
A lot of combos that were factored too high to ever be raced finally got reduced in the 90s and early 2Ks. It would be fun to run GT with the 72 engine HP ratings, and of course N/SA 72 340 Dusters going 10.60s.

Dan Bennett 03-04-2025 01:02 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
A lot of thoughful replies; some I agree with and some I don't. But in my mind, none of them matter since the NHRA has made it clear they want to avoid teardowns at any price. If a racer really wanted to have an unfair advantage right now, they could easily do it if they knew there was almost no chance they'd be checked.

Won't get into the "in my day" thing, but that's something I would never do nor 99% of the racers I've met through the years. I have the strong impression that standard has changed.

GUMP 03-04-2025 01:24 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JP1738 (Post 710174)
...mfrs out here running 2 seconds under for a race or two just because they suddenly could.

Which is how this thread got started....

There have always been soft combinations. The factories have always worked it. In some cases combinations were overlooked for whatever reason. In others, people just hadn't been keeping up with the rule changes. Either way, sometimes, you have "oops moments". You also have those guys that are "FINALLY COOL" and just cant keep it in their pants....

j gardiner 03-04-2025 02:44 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
This is the reason why they shouldn?t lower the indexes.3, because racers will build engines based on the current tech. We are already pretty much allowed Super Stock engines in stock and comp engines in super stock. The only thing to keep racers from pushing the boundaries is getting hp. If not we will be dropping indexes every other year.

GTX JOHN 03-05-2025 03:20 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
I was fortunately enough to get to the Final Four cars at
the Winternationals last year. I would not have been able
to go to race and have been able to compete if the indexes
were 3 tenths faster. Many times the Wagon was less than
3 tenths under the index.

Some racers just like a particular combo or car
(Perhaps it is what they already have) and run it
it although it is poor combo against the index the.

Alan Roehrich 03-05-2025 05:34 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick J (Post 710168)
An index at 330ft., 660ft., 1000ft., 1320ft. takes care of that.


Actually , it does not. Different combinations run better at different parts of the track, even in the same class, with a similar 1320 ET.

j gardiner 03-05-2025 06:30 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
But none of them run 6.40?s in the 1/8 and 10.50?s in the 1/4 at less mph in the 1/4 than the1/8.

Alan Roehrich 03-05-2025 08:09 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by j gardiner (Post 710246)
But none of them run 6.40?s in the 1/8 and 10.50?s in the 1/4 at less mph in the 1/4 than the1/8.






Well, of course. But you're not going to be able to generate a set of parameters that will fairly apply "incremental indexes".

Frank Castros 03-05-2025 08:29 PM

Re: HP on Monday?
 
A few question for the historians in the audience.

What year were the Stock Eliminator indexes last reviewed and lowered?

What was the average qualifying number under the index at that time?

I'll have more questions after acquirring this data.


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