CLASS RACER FORUM - Great Bend Stock DQ

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Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

Well DAVE,

We only had to travel 534 miles one way to KS. Plus, we only took ONE car instead of the THREE we take to our Stock/SS races. So actually, this was cheaper as we split the costs. Also, Rick now gets enough leave at his new job to be able to take a few days off to race. Otherwise we would have stayed home. Another fact. Brainerd is 280 miles from us. Otherwise, ALL the Points Race tracks except Great Bend are 550 miles or more, one way, and as of now, he works the Brainerd weekend. So this was the shortest Points race for us. I have more reasons if you need 'em. Thanks for caring. Call when you come through to Murphy's. I'll even buy.

Jerry

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

Why should NHRA publish a spec? Well, if you're using 30 year old heads, that you did not buy new, how can you be sure they have not been modified before you bought them, if you don't have a spec to go by?

It's really simple, publish a spec you are going to enforce, or don't enforce it. If the spec is not published, how do we know everyone is being held to the same spec and the same tolerance? We don't. And that simply will not work.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob (Post 67642)

I would agree that they do not have them all, but they have the popular ones. And I would agree that some were drawn on, at that time, bogus heads.

So, by your own admission, SS spec's (for the most part) are to big to use for a stock head---Correct?
Some are, others are not. Some heads that have big numbers, will slow down the car in a Stock application; on others will pick up, and on others, there will be be any change. I know of some of the shown SS spec volume numbers that are actual OEM stock numbers that will not have any effect in a Stock application. There are also more variables that would dictate performance such as engine size, type of induction, manifold style and cam lift.

So when a 283 head pours 10% more than the SS spec, how do you defend that? How can you justify that big of a runner? Surely, you don't expect me to buy into the new valve rule as being the cause?
I will not speculate on this particular case since I was not there and I do not know the whole story. Nevertheless, if the port was 10% larger than the SS spec, I would agree it was more than valves and plain stupidity.

:) :)

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

I don't think this is that complicated. NHRA is pouring stocker heads to get data for future specs and what they are saying is , if you pour bigger than a SS spec your out. end of story ! I think a clarifcation by NHRA , as to what they are doing , would put this confusion to rest.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

They poured the runners on my head (cylinder) at Gainesville 5 or 6 years ago. As far as I know there were only 2 of us running that head at the time?

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

Word has it that the stocker volumes are very close to been done ( upwards of 90+%) and that we'll see 'em published around Indy time. Everybody, just hold ya breath until then! LOL
The way I figure it, those numbers will give us some 'lines to paint between'. However, I'm still concerned about the runner surface texture that can be positively identified as a stock surface. Should it match the texture of another outside surface, i.e. inside the head under the valve cover , around the valve springs?????
There's plenty of recent technology that can measure the texture and it wouldn't be that difficult for NHRA to step up to the plate and purchase such instruments i.e. a profilometer. An industy standard method of checking for welds and acid has been around for sometime now, it really is not that hard to detect!

Disclaimer: I'm a bit of a dinosuar racer, meaning my heads are completely untouched, give me some specs and checking methods and that'll probably change!

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernie Cunningham (Post 67695)

Bernie, the problem is that surface texture is subjective, especially when the OEM used various foundries. Also, the condition of the tooling and molds has a lot to do with surface texture and also with core shift. With the exception of aluminum heads, you will see always a variation of surface texture in cast iron heads. I have seen this with many different makes of cast iron cylinder heads.

So, if NHRA starts to use a profilometer, who is going to establish the values and surface finish criteria? The surface finish criteria is different for all OEM's. Who is going to send the NHRA staff to train in metrology? The fact is that you do not need to have a smooth surface to make power with a low lift application. The new valve rule is what you will see as the one of the items improving performance in the class. About acid, there are numerous ways to neutralize and remove all traces of acid from cast iron and aluminum making it undetectable.

I am more worried of metal spraying than acid; hogging out a port is not the only key of making power: the shape of the port and runner is the key for velocity and to power. ...and no, you are not a Dinosaur racer; you have many valid points. The problem is that NHRA cannot keep up with either the technology that is available and the creativity of racers.

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

Not speaking for Bernie, but I believe he was inferring that if the runner texture does not match the other "cast" textures on the same head there "may" be a problem. For instance, in a 441 SBC head if the textures of the runners is not the same as the texture on of the cast surface under the valve cover, or the exterior of the runner on the underside of the head, then there "may" be a problem. Therefore if you were to do some runner "work" you would have to re-work all the cast surfaces on the head (time and $$$).

Bill

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Grubbs (Post 67706)

Bill, like I said, racers are creative. Racers have got around it by glass beading or shot peening the whole cylinder head. One of the items I would suggest is making port templates based on available, over-the-counter gaskets. Mr. Gasket even has a set of templates based on their Ultra Seal line.

http://www.streetsideauto.com/send_b...age/73074G.jpg

Re: Great Bend Stock DQ

[QUOTE=Bob;67603]George, you said "Also give me rules to follow and I will follow them. I can't prepare for a rule that isn't there."

Jim, you said "We are required to play by the rules and so are they."

The rule book I have states quite clearly that CYLIDER HEADS CANNOT BE MODIFIED. So if your head runners pour MORE THAN the SS spec, they are too big. If your heads pour MORE THAN an original head that NHRA provides, they are to big. PERIOD!!

AND, no where in the rulebook does it state that you can port a head, cover it with acid, and it will be legal as long as it does not exceed the SS spec's. That unfortunately is the assumption that many racers and engine builders have.

Maybe, just maybe, NHRA has spec's for heads, and their fact finding mission over the
last year has simply been to find out how many bogus heads are out there.

All I can say is this. The heads I run came on the truck when I bought the truck brand new in March of 1996. Mr. Ronny at Southland did a 3 angle and cleaned up the surface on these heads and thats it. I know how virgin these heads are; however, when Wesley pored them they were .2 of 1cc higher than the SS spec of a 350. Now they were try to compare the SS specs of a 350 to my 4.3 V6 because they admitted they had no data to compare to. Tell me how is that fair. All I can say is that if NHRA decides that these heads are to big I guess I will be doing more bracket racing, because I don't believe I could find a stock head smaller.

P.S. It is their ballpark; however, without players its just a field.