Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I would agree with that. Sort of a "necisary evil", to create a relatively level playing field for all. I've heard suggestions that we should go back to the old days, of running off of the record, or run like Comp, off the Index, both with first-to-the-finish-line wins. It would certainly be a lot of fun to watch. Every year at Indy, when it came time for Class, I was always the first pair down, so I could hurry back and watch the rest of the racing. But, participation would definately decline severely if the Eliminator were to be run by either of the ways mentioned above. Case in point: In October 1998 at the Dutch Classic, Div 1 came up with a "fun race". Pay a fee (I think twenty bucks). The eight drivers with the best reaction time of those that signed up, got into an eight car race. Participation was very good, I think twenty or more cars signed up. The next spring, D-1 decided to expand to sixteen cars, run similar to Comp Elimintator. They took the average ET of the cars that qualified (in relation to the Index) and set that as the CIC (using a second under, on a one-to-one ratio), to begin for first round. So, if the average ET was -1.037, and you had a GT/DA, your Index dropped from 10.80 to 10.77 for round one, and CIC hits would accumulate. First one there was the winner. The three events under this format (Delmar Open, Atco Open, and Maple Grove FMDRS), the car counts were five, seven, and nine respectively in Super Stock, and not much better for Stock. I think this would be the case if the eliminators were turned into a first-to-the-stripe wins. Some would be all for it, many would be against it. I guess no matter what way it becomes, not everyone will be happy. I guess the easiest, cheapest (?), and fairest way would be to leave it as it is. Seems to have worked for the past twenty years. Some will race no matter what the rules, some will complain no matter what the situation. Like Terry Bell or someone said earlier, the main things we should be arguing are far more important that bracket vs heads-up, crate vs regular Stockers, etc. Payouts, entry fees, poor event scheduling, track conditions, class rotation, cost savings fairness of rules interpertation and application, etc etc would seem to be the more important issues right now.

B.D.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Mike B,don't forget dad was a hemi warrior back in the day with the plymouth duster and arrow........i think the mustang(i.e. or ford) thing was part of the mid life crisus.......also don't forget aboutt the ss duster in 2012 at this rate.......

the air at the rock was crazy everyone was flying on that pass even the pedal pushers couldn't slow down enough messed the ladder up for them...........

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

i don't understand comp????....that is a weird way to race....but i don't really know the rules either....i don't really think class racing would be to good running like comp does

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

BULL! There is NOTHING cheated up about either of the Camaros we run.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Dave Turner, i hope it worked out for you.....if it did then im looking forward to having some leg room i look like a clown in a clown car...haha...



...........GO PANTHERS.............

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Alan do you run a crate motored car? Also what kind of camaro?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

i think he runs stick class

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

My crate combo only went .35 under as an untouched store bought engine.It has an aluminum intake and a 750 holley and that was 4 yrs ago. And no, its not because im a clueless idiot.I can assure you I wont be at the top of any ladder anytime soon and it is by choice not money!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

the way i see it in crate motor if your class isn't booming than don't worry about how fast you go or needing to go fast.....5 doors what CM class do you run in...

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Hi Brandon. Comp can be, at times, confusing. It's almost a combination of bracket racing and first to the stripe.

Two cars (except those in the same class) are handicapped off of their class index. First one to the stripe wins. But there is a catch, the Competition Index Control (CIC). Similar to the -1.40 under rule for S/SS racing. If a driver runs more than -.509 under their Index in eliminations, their Index is reduced one hundreth, for each hundreth they exceed the -.50, temporarily (for that race only, for that driver only). After a driver runs more than -.610 under their original Index, it becomes a permanent Class index adjustment, for everyone in that class. For example:

A driver is competing in C/Altered, with an Index of 8.00. In winning the first round, they run 7.460. Meaning their Index for round two is 7.96. Second round their opponent redlights, so they can lift and "save the Index". Round three, they win, and run 7.423, seconds, so their Index for the semifinals is 7.93. They win the semifinals, running 7.400. Their Index for the final will be 7.90. If they do not run any quicker than 7.391 in the final, the Index will return to 8.00 for everyone in C/A following the event. However, if that driver runs 7.350 in the final (regardless of a win or loss), the Index will be 7.95 for everyone in C/A in the country. The permanent Index hit chart is as follows:

-.61 under original Index = .01 permanent change
-.62 = .02
-.63 = .03
-.64 = .04
-.65.to -.699 = .05
-.710 = .06
-.72 = .07
-.73 = .08
-.74 = .09
-.750 and more = .10. A tenth is the maximum penalty a driver/class can incur in one event. A driver that runs -.800 under in round one will lose three tenths for round two, but only one tenth permanently. So for round two, the Index will be 7.70 for yourself, and adjusted to 7.90 for everyone the following Monday

Now, back the temporary CIC deal. If you have accrued .07 temporary penalties in C/A (having run 7.928, adjusting the original Index down from 8.00 to 7.93) and another C/A racer has accumulated .02 (down to 7.98), if you race each other in eliminations, the Index goes back to 8.00 for you both, and it's heads-up. The winner will revert back to their adjusted Index (plus any penalty incurred in the Class run) for the next round. So, if you run 7.410 in your Class run, your Index goes from the previous 7.93 to 7.91 for the next round. So, you need to get their first, but attempt to do so by the slimmest of margine, to minimize any Index penalties.

Hope this helps?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Brandon currently in f/cm have run g,h,i diff combos though.After spending alot of money I am about .7 under now.Thats it for me.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

thanks mike that helped alot...sounds like it would be fun and a challenge but man hurting your index that really stinks i guess you would never really know how fast a guy in your class could really go....and if it hits your index perm...does that include carrying over to this season...do they run the spot on the tree by indexes with no dial in.....

5 doors f/cm is a good class in d 9 its not as heavy as c,d,and i....so i think -.7 under isn't bad i always tell my buddies running in other classes that are slower if you average 1 or less heads up a year it doesn't matter how fast your car rund the index...

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I drive, every once in a while, a 69 Camaro 255/350 4 speed, G/S and F/S. It's been as fast as .65 under. The owner also has a 69 Camaro 425/427 automatic A/SA and AA/SA. It's been as fast as 1.01 under in good air. I can assure you they're legal. I hope I'll get a chance to pick both cars up some this year.

You can run 1.0 under legally if you pick a good combination and you work on it. I've seen people spend a lot of money trying to buy fast, and they were still slow.

Most of the stuff I've come across that was cheated up was slow, not fast. Most people who cheat, cheat because they're not smart enough to go fast legally. It usually means they aren't smart enough to cheat and go fast. Yes, there are exceptions. But it has been a general rule for the 30 some years I've been racing the cheated up cars are slow.


I've never liked crate motors, from the time they came out, and wrecked the local circle track scene. I do not like them any more now than I did then.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Yep, you have to be careful to not hit the Index. Many times a racer has gone to the early Divisional races down south, then the air was good, and hit the whole class before many others in the class were even out of the garage yet. Plus, you run fast in the spring, then you get to summer, with much slower air AND a much tougher Index. Many racers have become unpopular due to a seemingly high disgegard to the Indexes and other drivers in their class. They just go fast and hit it, and switch classes. So for 2007, a rule was implemented saying that if you permanently hit two different classes in one year, you are stuck in one of those two classes for the remainder of that year, which was a good thing. The Index is always the handicap used. There is never a dial-in, just the Class Index. And yes, like S/SS racing, sometimes you never know just how much the other driver is, or may be, holding back.

Yes, Indexes carry over from year to year. For example, A/Nostalgia Dragster was introduced about ten years ago It started at 8.00 or 8.10. The A/ND Index is now 7.46, and still a competitive class for some.

You'll notice that many of the good Comp racers (and many World Champs in the past 10-15 years) came from a Class, bracket, or .90 class background. Fletcher (Hayek still hates you), Rampy, Biondo (Sal and Peter both), Bertozzi, Saye, Stratton, Jeff Taylor, Butner, Lambeck, just to name a few Knowing the importance of getting their first by the slimmest of margins to protect the Index. It's not even uncommon for a racer, knowing they will not get to the stripe first, to lift and lose, just to protect the Index. Losing the battle to win the war later on that year.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

that still sounds pretty cool...it still sounds tough and maybe thats why those guys are the best at driving the stripe even when they don't murder you on the tree

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Alan I went to autoimagery and looked up your car wow! Its very nice. Im pretty sure the bottom end of your 350 looks like mine,I stress the word LOOKS. I understand your point about the crate motors but who wants to spend big money and kiss someones *** to find the rare - right parts. ( the heads that have been left in the parts cleaner too long wink wink!) or the quadrajet that cost more than my intake and carb. Combo is one thing what it really is- is another. The engine is still full of a bunch of rotating parts.To me crate motor or not its all about cubic dollars! I do however give credit when its due and my hats of to your team as the car flies legally.Mike

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Mike,
Everybody cries about cratemotors being soft.
I know for a fact 4 years ago your conbo would be well over a second under. IHRA has dropped the cratemotor indexes and also added horsepower to that combo.
Now if anyone wants to cry maybe it's the GM crate motors. I can't ever remember a MOPAR getting HP increase.
Chip

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

you doing alright chip

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Ken you surely paid your dues with true Class Cars..and this time you decided to try something else..thats good because now you have tried it and for whatever reason you have you like to continue with what you have..You didn't "pay the price" too build a car that could crossover this time around even though you knew about all this..but now you think it would be nice to be able crossover..hmm..
That rockingham race is that concidered a big IHRA race? I saw 72 on the qualifying sheet..around 40 that could cross over to NHRA among those Fletcher,Bertozzi...so it did probably not conflict with any major NHRA race..so that still leaves the question why not more cars? If it were an NHRA event of any kind on that track i think they would have more cars than that even whitout all these crate's,P/S and GT/S in the mix..wouldn't they?Since IHRA is a friendlier org. it just has to be that the majority dont want a "run whatya brung" bracket race.. I think the answer are pretty obvious..you just dont build an NHRA-type stocker to compete only in IHRA.. it also seems IHRA just want everyone they can get in through the gates..you never end up well if you try to please everybody!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

there are plenty of NHRA able cars only running IHRA...bertozzi and fletch man they run everywhere every weekend...i don't think it matters to them who or what it is

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

The white car is not mine, it belongs to my friend Kevin Cradduck (2853), he owns both cars, and lets me drive the white car as a perk. It really isn't fast, most of the cars in the classes it runs are faster, I consider it to be 3-4 tenths slow. It has an old engine, it needs to be updated. But Kevin's orange car is the main focus, and it is fairly fast. Like I said the white car is a perk, one that will not last forever (it's for sale), that I do not really deserve, but that I am nonetheless eternally grateful for. I am extremely fortunate to work for a truly exceptional friend.

Honestly, only the heads on the white car are really tough to find, only the 441 casting is legal, I'm hunting some castings now. I've got a large container full of carburetors I could build to go on the car legally. The intake is fairly easy to find as well. The heads for the orange car aren't hard to find, but prepare to pay $1500 or more for bare castings.

Something most people do not know about heads is that it is easy to make the heads too big on a stocker. Yeah, there's a lot of talk about acid ported heads, and I'm sure some sets exist, and some of them even run well. But the flip side is that I've seen some illegal stuff, and all they did was make it slow.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Alan are you interested in some zz4 heads?? lol!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

LOL. I really have a lot more to worry about with the orange car, there's some heavy hitters coming out with some bad stuff down here in Division 2. I need a tenth or two for the orange car at least just to keep up. And the orange car is the one that matters.

I don't think Travis or Wesley would be real forgiving about finding ZZ4 heads on the white car, I can hear Wesley now, (Wesley:"Alan, you going to run Comp with that car this weekend, or are you and Kevin going to take a year or two off?"). No telling what Travis would say, but I bet he wouldn't smile at me anymore. Those 441 heads are hard enough to find that it might be necessary to swap to 186 heads and go 300/350, and we don't really want to do that.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

yall get a Wally for winning class

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

we get a plaque that my son made at daycare....lol

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

:eek::D

Now THAT is funny.

I'd love to have a shot at a Wally or two this year. But we're in two (or four) very tough classes.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

yeah i thought it was funny...prolly shouldn't have said that..im just glad we get something for class....i hope i get an iron man everyone didn't really like the skinny ones i said ill take anyone as long as its an iron man.......good luck on that wally if you can't get one in class just get one with a race W....

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Brandon,
Doing good. Ready to go racing. I may have to get another stocker those .90 guys don't fuss like this.LOL
Chip

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

hahah i hear ya chip, we miss you in stock you sure are the legend in all catagories....man i glad you are doing good..i guess lucky it hit at the end of the year...im ready to hit the strip too...its hard to stop for a few months..but thats how it is....

p/s you can stay in the .90 class though less to worry about...have a good break

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

on know they are talking about the challenger and new mustang on another post....but since this about crate motors and other stuff...im going to put this out here.....please don't hate me for this....but it seems like the new challenger is going to be pretty much a crate motor...lets not go crazy on this post now......i work at a dealer and know what these supposidly factory motors look like and they don't look like these motors in these cars.....im saying this on not really knowing how NHRA does there motor config...

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

now there you went and did it Brandon.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Brandon,
Are you taking meal breaks?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

haha i know......its just a question

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

hi, i dont get on here much, but just saw your post. I guess if you dont
run a mopar you wouldnt know. But they have been hit more than any
crate motor on hp. They have been hit with 25 hp.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I drove a Mopar once!
Thanks again
Chip

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Finally someone who makes sense. Thanks Tod. U NHRA guys have no idea what a crate motor stocker is anyways. You Think its a motor that comes from GM that u plop in for 3500 bucks and go racing...WRONG. We go looking for castings and then build a bottom, run the same cams u guys run. WOW...we get to run any intake manifold that will fit under the hood. Big deal. If you had a 69 Camaro and say you blew up the engine way back in 76...it was a 300hp engine and it was totally destroyed. Now GM offers an engine that will run on unleaded, and make 300hp...would you not buy it for a replacement instead of buying proper casting for mega bucks?? Thats what the class basically is. Boys...we are rated at huge HP numbers and race really heavy....and don't tell me its fun to pull old heads off of rusty motors out in the woods that are rusted right into the earth. It took me and a friend 2 days to get a set of 041 heads off of a smashed impala...to find out that they were junk. Lots of fun.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Unfortunatly us "crate motor" guys will be way more legal than you stocker guys. Thats the cool thing...I run a vortec 330hp combo. The heads flow just as good as a ported Camel back. But we all know all you stocker guys don't have ported heads right? ::rolleyes:

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

There is over 150 pages of replies and really dont care or have the time to look at every one to see how bad the class is being put down. NHRA stocker guys should wake up and really have a look at the class...ITS STOCK BOYS....same everything except for the intake rule. And we get a 750cfm carb for small blocks and 850cfm for big blocks. Theres nothing SPEC about the motor so whoever said that is really lost. My crate motor runs a 300hp stocker cam with .400 lift. Everything is the same....pistons, rods, crank, ect. Close the hood and they all sound the same...who cares. Im pisd off because im selling my 330hp crate and im buying a 295hp stocker motor just to come race some NHRA races. Guess I should have waited.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I think most of us understand the Crate Motor concept.

The bottom line is this. We race what we build or buy. Build or buy a Stocker if you want to run nhra Stock classes!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Bruce, i took a few breaks for meals yesterday...the biggest break was to watch my Panthers get murdered.....what a horrible game...