Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce, Evan raced his Lightning in the Stock Truck class at a couple of races. They aren't the first supercharged cars to run in Stock.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I would have been more sympathetic to Bruce's point of view if he had included his AA status in the first post.


I know for a fact that some of the factory people read these threads. If you were watching Barrett Jackson last night you would have noted how excited they were about these cars. I'm sure that it took a lot to get the permission to build them. It would be nice if we respected what they are trying to do and let them have their day in the sun. I am also a big fan of the idea of running the new cars in stock. I would hate it if the factories stopped building high performance cars. I purchased my current LT1 car new in 1995. It has always been raced in Stock (186 original miles). I am due for something new, but my choice would be GM first.


I feel their pain, but as I stated in an earlier post, I really doubt that the Mustangs will be able to dominate AA for too long.


I don't agree. If the factory builds them in the required quantities they should be allowed to run.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Billy,

Thanks for the info. I guess these Mustangs will have more of an impact than an occaisional pickup racing.

Gump,
Thanks for your posts. It's always good to hear from folks with a different point of view. But Doug made excellent points. This thread is not about me. It is about racing.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce,

I am all for a new class. In fact, if they made one, that's where I would want to run.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k5...1/IMG_1387.jpg

Like I noted before, I have seen these cars up close. They are factory built Stockers not Super Stockers. They are extremely cool cars that I believe should be given a chance to run. Like the LT1/LS1 cars were a few years ago they are a true example of what the factories are producing (less all of the safety, stereo, and emissions stuff).

Keep in mind that when building a new car all of us have a choice.

Take Care,

Daren

Re: Factory experimental
 

Oh, and sorry for including my ugly mug in the photo, but it is the only one that I have of the car.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Gump,

Nice picture. I have photos of the same car - but without my mug in them. There are two Mustangs approved to run in Stock. The Roush folks openly publish the fact that their car is an After market Car.

There are many ways to make everyone whole in this situation. I feel both Mustangs should compete in a more advanced class. Let's discuss that.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce, in case I missed it somewhere else in this thread, let's not forget that the original Cobra Jets were not Stockers they were Superstockers. And 40 years later the originals are still causing problems in Stock with regards to head castings, intakes, carbs and cam specs that might just not be correct.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Gump thanks for your post!! I think a new class lets say AAA with the mustang, challenger and maybe chevrolet could get busy on the new camaro these 3 cars going head to head would be great for racing and for sales. If one of the AA guys wants to move up to AAA that could be fun to watch to!

Re: Factory experimental
 

not crying foul here,but if ford were paying nhra to play,i doubt they would tell you or anybody else.do you ?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Billy,
I don't think it had been mentioned before. Seems like tear down for these cars would be one heck of a project.

Doug,
I agree with you 100%. I don't want to sound like a Chevrolet man who is against any other OEM. I would be against the Chevrolet folks trying to bring in a Supercharged Corvette too. I don't remember who the first person was to offer the AAA idea but it was a good one.

Re: Factory experimental
 

It seems to me like this would be a reasonable deal, to have a class for the mustangs, the challengers, and maybe a new camaro that would fit in. I think that would be better for everyone concerned maybe a 7.0 lb. class and feature it like the hemi shootout. More meaningful exposure for the factories without infringing on existing stock classes. They could then run the eliminator against all the rest of us. You could call it AAA or F/X or anything you wanted. This would be easy to do and would cost very little if anything. Also don't forget that regular production mustangs and challengers will fit in stock just fine.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Could run it something like the HEMI shootout

Re: Factory experimental
 

Greg,
Great idea. What would it cost nhra to do this? Maybe 8 to 10 little Wally trophies? Sounds fair. Throw the Vettes in there too and the OEM's would have a ball.

Doug,
They could have an OEM Shootout at Indy. That really would be trick.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Like I said in an earlier post, Why stop with "THE NEW" Purpose built cars? Clean up (decontaminate) our current Stock Classes. Include the "Old" Purpose built cars also; Alum. Front End Mopars, Shelby Mustangs, Nascar Hemi's and BB Chevys with Edelbrock Heads. Make them run only AA/S or AA/SA. And let anybody else that wants to run that "BIG $ICK" Class have at it. It would be the SS/AH of Stock Elim. Just think how easy that makes it for NHRA and IHRA in the future. You want some "creative" rule or part added ? They just say, SURE, it's approved but now you can only run AA/S with your Paper Combo.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Any news on the Challenger ???????? has anybody took delivery of one these? is Gartlis going to be at Bradenton ???? My local dealer has one on order but cant get any info from dodge on when it might be ready

Re: Factory experimental
 

That would be like too cool and opens the door for National Event Stock and let the POOR BOYS have Divisional Event Stock. The Yellow Brick Road is coming into focus now Come on Toto lets click our heels and make it happen.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I have to wonder if these new Cobra Jet (NOT ROUSH) Mustangs would be causing such an uproar if they would have been equipped with a less powerful engine, and fit into a mid pack Stock Eliminator class, rather than the "Top of the Heap" "A" &"AA" classes, where the big dogs play. Yes, they are supercharged, but they are also only 331 cubic inches. I also don`t understand why there is such a big deal about superchargers not "belonging" in Stock, when Turbo`s have been in use on 4,6,and 8 cylinder Stockers for years. Could it be because they tended to fit into the middle to lower classes, so the upper class runners didn`t feel too concerned, other than the turbo cars hogging the quick qualifier positions on the ladder. Personally, I think that since the superchaarger is belt driven with easy to see pulleys, it would be a simple matter for Tech to measure these pulleys to keep the blowers drive ratio to factory levels, whereas the turbo cars seem to pretty much have no boost restrictions. I have no personal interest in these new Mustangs, Hell, if I was one of the mysterious racers that NHRA seems to ask about all the rules changes over the past several years (Wheelie bars,fuel cells, aftermarket lightweight racing brakes, aftermarket alum. cylinder heads, ) I would have voted against all of that stuff. Myself, I wish the rules were more restrictive like they were 15-20 years ago, but they are not, so you go with the flow. As for the big bad manufacturers "ruining the class for the little guys", I remember reading pretty much the same thing in Hot Rod and Car Craft magazine in the late 60`s! These Mustangs are sure causing a lot of stress for people, considering there hasn`t been one down a dragstrip at a NHRA race yet.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Rory,
The big deal or problem comes from the very soft Horsepower.

The old turbo cars aren't the same as today's Supercharged cars. Apples and Oranges.

What's wrong with running them in an advanced Horsepower class?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Rory, BTW it isn't illegal to change pullys on a supercharged car as per the 08 and 09 rules.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Gee Bruce,
LT1 and LS1 had 'real' soft HP's from NHRA when they came out, but that was OK ...

Re: Factory experimental
 

Chuck,
You confirm my earlier post about your fondness for those cars. Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion?

Re: Factory experimental
 

You know Bruce, Rory does come up with a good point! When Ford releases its Ecoboost V6s in the Mustangs (they're coming) and they totally wipe out the middle and lower Stock classes I doubt that there will be any mention of it!

Re: Factory experimental
 

I should also mention the 3.9 Challengers and DI V6 Camaros!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce,

The Roush cars have a different engine (4.6-liters), with 50 less cubes, less cams and big hp ratings considering the combinations. They will not be killers. Technically, Roush is the manufacturer of the cars it sells, no different than Shelby in the '60s. Superchargers have been in Stock for a long time. My Lightning would have been a killer if I built it all out, but I needed to get to work in it so that plan was nixed.

As for the CJ, it will make lots of power, but it is extremely nose heavy, has a long 115-inch wheelbase and has not run in competition yet. If GM can take advantage of soft factoring with a new car, why shouldn't Ford be able to do the same thing? If the cars fly then the AHFS will cause them to be factored.

Perhaps if the cars do blow away the competition that NHRA will create a new class, but how can they act on a car that has yet to run?

It's funny how some guys with really fast "A" cars that I have spoke to are looking forward to the challenge.

Evan

Re: Factory experimental
 

Evan, are you sure about the wheelbase on the CJs? I know that the Challengers are long.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Correction, 107 and change on the 2005-present Mustang wheelbase. Still long considering the engine placement.

Re: Factory experimental
 

No Dog in the fight...well yet...and they also havent run yet..true...but if it shows to be what alot of people have observed so far..how do you justify that 15-30 years of R/D that others put down could be wiped out with a stroke of a pen? We all know that AHFS wont take care of it within 5-7 years atleast..isn't reasonable that when new breed comes along they would have to do it from the other direction with respect to all those racers that been hammering on this for years and years? Something is wrong if some have to work their butts off to be fast and others are in the position to "hold back"

p.s. I do like that new cars are coming along..it gets exposure..but just not fair if they gets to be the fastest right out of the bat!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Evan,
I appreciate your feedback. We agree the factors are soft and most OEM's would take advantage of it. But, you know as well as I do, that once these cars go down the track as AA and A cars that they will stay there. It will take the ahfs years of reviews before this car is brought back down to earth. I think it would be better to put these cars in a class that will allow them to get sorted out first and then move them down if they are not running the big numbers. I have not heard of one AA guy, or his engine builder, who thinks this is a good deal for their classes. I speak to guys from Washington State to New York and not one of them is for allowing these cars into AA or A. Believe it or not, I don't come out here to take on these difficult threads with out considerable input and support from racers.

Billy,
I missed the part about the V6 car. You guys are on to something. It would be great if we had a real committee that could work with nhra. But nhra trashed the one we had, so we are left to our own devices out here.

Re: Factory experimental
 

they should allow the new mustang,supercharged zr-1 corvette and the viper to run in the same class,heads up,,that would cut out all the bitching and be fair for all makes,not just ford.now that would be drag racing..

Re: Factory experimental
 

Whether you like the new factory race cars or not, two things are going to happen that will benefit all stock racers. First, there is more media and fan exposure than I have seen in many years, which possibly means more help from the Aftermarket and Oem Manufacturers and Sponsors. Second, With a new fan base it will help to insure that Stock Eliminator will be much more healthy for many years to come. If the new cars are put in a different Eliminator then that Eliminator will get the media and fan exposure. Think about it a minute, as they say be careful what you wish for , you may just get it.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Very well said. If one of these cars happen to be in a National event final and you are in the other lane,I think there is a good chance that you will be on ESPN2 LIVE.
If it happens to be a "heads up" final,you will get additional air time for being so far behind!

Re: Factory experimental
 

The only thing that I really don't like is that some of you guys seem to think that these classes belong to the cars of the late sixties-early seventies. Through out the history of our eliminator there have always been new cars that have been built that have owned the qualifying. Most all of those combinations are still strong runners, but they don't dominate any more. It just takes time. If the line of thinking that some of you are proposing existed in the sixties do you really think that all of those hot rods would have been built? Remember that back then drag racing had a strong influence on what was being built. It just so happens that here in 2009 the factories have gotten nostalgic and are looking at our classes again.

I like the idea that you can buy a cost effective, non emission, no option, no air bag, etc. new car to run our classes. I hope that they offer up more of these cars. Especially if they build the cars that I looked at, but with production normally aspirated motors with production intakes etc.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Well said. It's like I said before, give them their day in the sun. It is not 1969. It's cool to live in 2009 too.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I wish that Garlits, The Grump, Glidden, Kalitta take your pick, were jumping in to race these cars . You are absolutely right about the exposure that it would generate. BUT I want to see them in "Production" cars!

Re: Factory experimental
 

So a COPO 427 Camaro is a production car, available to the masses? Please. And it is OK to run a '98 LT-1-powered F-body (that never existed)? This is OK. No one seems to be able to answer why when GM "works" the system that it is alright, but Ford is evil for building a car that will bring the company exposure and hopefully sell cars on Monday.

Last time I checked, all the manufacturers played this game in the '60s and '70s. And many racers benefited from this. I can appreciate the hard work and years of research. If a new car came into my class I wouldn't be happy, but guess what, that's racing.

Evan

Re: Factory experimental
 

HA!! Yeah right!
Then the bitching would start that "they have more experience/money/already raced as a pro and this is sportsman/yaddayaddayadda.

I want to see how the 2010 fusion sport with AWD and a 355hp direct injected twin turbo engine is received! Let's say it's a E/SA, I can hear the whining now, ANOTHER FORD WITH AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE!

The new cars are coming guys, in all classes, they put out lots of power with boost. They are factory available. If you make a new class for the mustangs and challengers, what about the cars that fall mid pack and "clean up" as everybody seems to think they will? What about a cobalt or focus that comes with a turbo and cleans up V/SA? Make a new Turbo/Supercharged class? A/Supercharged/Stock/Automatic?

How about change all the weight breaks and start off at 5.00 for A and go to Z/SA again? Then a 600hp car that weighs 3500lb's would have a place to play? There has got to be a better plan than "make a new class to exclude them" or snub the manufactures that have after all these years decided to recognize class racing. And to just keep adding letters doesn't work either. AAAAAAAA/SA ?? Those are the 2016 camaro's and mustangs that weigh 3200lb's and have 1100hp out of 4 valve twin cam compound turbo/supercharged AWD methanol injected 4 cyl...from the factory!

They're in the book, they get to play. AHFS will sort them out like it did everything else.

Again, how about change all the weight breaks and start off at 5.00 for A and go to Z/SA again? Your C/SA is now a G/SA with the same weight break?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Oh and Billy, sorry if that sounded disrespectfull to you as it was not meant that way. I was speaking of others in general.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I remember going to Sport Chevrolet and walking the car lot in 1969, There were 15 COPO Camaros of all colors with sticks and automatics in one area and 12 COPO 427 Chevelles arcoss the lot all for about $3600 each. The ZL-1's were at different dealerships (I saw 3 at 3 different dealers) in the Maryland area but at $7200 they were out of reach for the average guy but at least they sat on showroom floors for those that had the $$$$$$ to buy them. THATS why they are called "PRODUCTION" line cars. I bought a Corvette ($4200) instead (stupid me) and raced that for a few years. If only someone would invent a time machine so we could go back . That was at just ONE Chevy dealer and you didnt have to be a "SUPER STAR" to buy one or be a millionare either to finish setting it up. I think the REAL complaint is the SUPERCHARGER. Why didnt they build these cars without forced induction?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Changing the weight breaks makes more sense than sticking the Mustang in the present HP structure.
Alot of the older forbidden combos could then race in stock and I think that would be a good thing for all.
It will be wierd having a Mustang coming up on me at over 50 mph though.

Ed F.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Just an observation.....ALL the Nitro Classes and Alky Classes run Hemi's... I think the Hemi responds very well to forced induction. Go ahead Ford and open the box. The best is yet to come!! I can hear the crying now......Supercharged Hemi Challenger, gotta love it! (And if it get's factored out, you can put Alky in it and run Pro Mod.) Hey, maybe Toyota will get involved !!!!LMAO
I can see it now....THE Finals of Stock Eliminator at Las Vegas 2009. It's a Heads Up! The new 2009 AA/S Ford Mustang against John Shaul's New "1962" Plymouth Factory Light weight AA/SA. The lights... the camera's... all the TV hype...John Force watching from the starting line. OH NO! John Shaul turned up the wick! He goes 9.59 at 138.00!!!! OH my God, The New Factory Mustang can only muster a 9.70, The fans are stunned, John Force passes out! The GM of Ford gets fired.... And the New Post on Class Racer . Com says... Band all 1960's Muscle Cars!!! They have an unfair advantage! Way to much R&D. ( and of course, Ported Heads.)