Re: Mustang MPH?
 

George, ck ur pm box

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

So "average Joe" can run from the stands and order a new 2010 CJ and take it on the streets next year? That would make it legitimit next year...What about these 2008's...how many on this board(exept hardcore Ford racers )new in 2007 to early 08 that you could get one of these and run Stock eliminator with one like it happened?

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Probably about as many that knew about single 4 barrel 65 Hemi's or 67 L-88 vettes or 98 LT-1 F bodies.

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[QUOTE=Bruce Noland;107808]

That's really nice that you are concerned about the Mopar guys.

BTW - no response from you regarding the Hemi's? Don't wanna bring that up as it doesn't benefit your cause?

Glad someone remembers the bashing received by the HEMI and what about the 440-6pak now rated at 417HP. What I want to say is it's sad when a combination is rated so high that it no longer can compete and slowly disappears, lots of really neat cars get parked when this happens. It may take a long time to reel in this new combo, unless someone let's it happen! And the present system can only work as well as the information [#'s] it's fed. I feel the pain and won't be going into A/SA till some adjustments are made.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

The anouncement letter for the Cobra Jet Mustang went out in June. It was also posted on many sites on the internet. A link to it was posted on this forum. If you would have acted quickly, you could have ordered one. Here is the thread from June: http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...light=cobrajet

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

I read an article in the sports pages not to long ago. It was about an umpire who was retiring after a long and storied career. He told the reporter who was writing the story that the best moments of his career came when there was absolute silence after he made a call. All the fans and players knew, at that moment, he had made a fair call. Silence, what a great way to judge the fairness of an important decision. This man retired with the respect of all the players, coaches and fans.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Bruce,

Everyone knows that the factor is pretty damn soft. Even they know it. They just won't admit it. I don't think badgering them is going to get them to show their hand. They know it's BS, we know it's BS. I think at this point it's beyond beating the dead horse even.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Ok..missed that..(didn't have the money anyway)..and the reason why they are 2008's and not 09's..were they in the works much longer than that or was it just they wanted it to be a "40 year jubilee-car"? ..turned out good anyway...

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Sean,
Agreed. My most recent posts have pointed that out as well.

Gump,
I sent you my email address.

Thanks

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Im not bashing the Hemi,s as I happen to like them BUT Mother Mopar never made a single carb Hemi car in 1965 (hard top or sedan) on the PRODUCTION line. Mopar only made ONE special order all steel bodied Dodge 2-door hard top in 1964 (a 4-speed) on the PRODUCTION line that had a X Ram iron head Hemi. All of those NASCAR combinations with one carb were delivered to race shops as seperate engines and boddies for round track purpose. None were produced on a production line to be sold to the average "Joe" for the street. THe other X RAM cars were production runs. Even today they are allowed an intake manifold and carb other than what was used in NASCAR but who really cares? They are neat and are another combo to build that has been OK'ed by the NHRA. The L-88 Corvettes are another story. The accually produced 20 (17 are known to still exist...3 with thier original engines) on the production line and sold them to the public. That is documented. The rest of them that show up at auctions, or other venues, etc. and were raced are cars put together by race teams back in the good ole days by either buying an engine or were given engines thru some sponsorship agreements. Even the ONLY known L-88 1966 Corvette raced in SCCA was a factory project that started out as a regular 427/425 HP car and later switched to an L-88 project test vehicle. The 98 LT-1's I have no knowlege of as they are late modle FI computer cars. Detroit went out of business makeing "REAL" cars in 1971 when the last HEMI was installed in a 'Cuda or Challenger. THe rest since then are just transportation produced like TV,s and refrigerators for public consumption.....lol.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

On the 1967 Corvette L-88, Chevrolet and GM claim to have produced and sold 36 to the general public, and there are claims, Chevrolet and GM will neither confirm nor deny, that there were some 25-30 given to or sold at reduced prices to road racers receiving back door support through Vince Piggins and Zora Arkus-Duntov. The legitimacy of those claims (NHRA accepts the 36 from Chevrolet and GM) depends on who you talk to. The L-88 option included a radio and heater delete, so the car wasn't intended to be street driven.

The new Mustang subject has been beaten to death, and we're no better or worse off. At this point, there is little anyone can do except race.

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Just wanted to clear up. GM produce 16-36 (depends who you talk to) 1967 L-88
1968 they produced over 100 (I think it was 108)
1969 112

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Ive been a Corvette guy since before I could legaly drive and Im active in Corvette clubs. The acepted number is 20 bought by the general public. The 3 with original engines have the correct code block and matching vin #. Of course there are counterfits as there are about 500 more 435 HP cars running around than Chev. ever made. The others are give aways for SCCA racing and clones. Yes they were all radio and heater delete. No shielding on the distribator either from the factory. I will try to get the vin #'s when Im at Carlise in August. Look it up in the Corvette "Black Book". My '67 was one of 20 also with an M-22 trans produced but it had a 427/435 HP engine with iron heads (not ALUM). It was a true 10 second street (10.97 at 126 MPH) car in 1967 on 8 inch slicks. 4 1/2 MPG with 4.88 gears. Drove it every day when I had it. Wish I had it back.

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80 1968's and 116 1969's. Plus 2 ZL-1 Alum engined Corvette's but only one has documentation. A third guy is trying to pass one off as real but he also has no documentation.

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

The 1970 426 Hemi automatic which is currently rated at 457 which is 7 hp more than the super stock rating. The 1970 426 hemi Cuda or Challenger are no longer competitive with the Chevy Ford and Mopar wedge motors. This combo was penalized because of one run by one person that was made in unbelievable conditions in Bellrose, La. The AHFS really just can't look at it from a black and white situation there are some gray areas here. I know this for a fact because I have parked my Cuda I ran SS with it but unless you spend high dollars you can’t be competitive with a stocker disguised as a SS. And I’ve always liked stock, it has always been fun. Had some great times, miss it and all my friends (well I hope they’re my friends). Oh yeah, I can build another car but I like mine. So really all the Ford’s and Chevy’s and yes even Mopar guys you really don’t have anything to bitch about until you get hit with over 216 LBS in less than 18 months. Just think of this, the hemi combo has to weigh over 3820 lbs. in A/SA. and over 3940 in top stock. Wow why don’t I just attach my trailer and drag it with me. Egos will take over and someone in the new mustang will go very very fast. Time will tell. just my 2 cents.
George Fitzpatrick.

A/SA 1042 factored into extinction
SS/DA 1426

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Bruce, I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never changed the factor on any combination, but I have friends who have gotten their own changed.

The NASCAR Hemi is as bogus of a combination as you can get anyway. It was a "stroke-of-the-pen" answer to Hawk's "I remember when..." Shelby IIRC.

All I'm saying is that if the Ford being soft bothers you so much take some facts into the fight and change it.

Mr. Dedman's plea that someone who has spent $60+K on a car that will now get killed by the Mustang heads-up is pretty short sighted too. The Mustang guys spent at least $70K to get where they are.

That's the beauty of class racing and wanting to be the king of the hill. There's always someone with a bigger stick or fatter wallet waiting to knock you off.

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Did anybody notice none of the mustangs are at the division race in Phoenix this weekend?
Maybe they've gone into hibernation till Indy.

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Heard that 3 of those Ponies have been sold off. The one that Calvert drove is back home in Oklahoma.
But you know how rumors fly in the stocker pits......................

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Big Show said, "Mr. Dedman's plea that someone who has spent $60+K on a car that will now get killed by the Mustang heads-up is pretty short sighted too. The Mustang guys spent at least $70K to get where they are."

Well, the fundamental difference is, the Mustangs are only "fast" (in their class) because NHRA "bought" Ford's suggested HP rating (which was straight out of "Alice in Wonderland,") lock, stock, and barrell. Most of the guys running really competitive A/S and A/SA cars (as well as AA/A) got there, not by the stroke of a pen, but by years of R & D (and, a lot of money) with a commbination that may or may not be "soft." at this time.

I think that's a significant difference.

The much-maligned NASCAR Hemi, it is reported, had HP added to its factor before one single run was made with that combination. NHRA apparently realized that they had made an error in assessing that engine's potential, and tried to correct it before any damage was done. I'm not criticizing NHRA for that, nor condoning it, but it was small potatoes compared to the glaring error that exists with regard to the HP debacle that exists with these 2008 CJ's... but NHRA tech was apparently paralyzed.

No action was taken, so what we have is an AHFS nightmare that will probably take a long time to straighten out. Years...

It didn't have to be that way.

But, all that aside, I too, am really glad these cars exist. I am all for new "blood" in the mix, and I hope the Dodges show up pretty soon. I just wish the factor on these 'Stangs was a little more based in reality.

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The 65 65 stock hemi single carb would be ok @ 430 if the manifold it came with was used instead of one required that wasn't made until 20 years later. And the 3 barrel that was used on them was allowed instead of the 850 double pumper. But then this is the same group that nixed all the things that the SRAC proposed for Stock and Super Stock.

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I hope that not will be the norm but the fattest wallet will always have some to do with all this..but this time around i think it's more that all those years of R/D that alot of these guys spent along with the money isn't worth anything when they are blown away by cars that hasn't really been worked on yet..i think this could be more of a nail in the coffin for stock as we used to know it rather than making use of any "good exposure" that some are talking about.. when you think about it...if this gets to be a norm ..that the factorys can make special runs with soft ratings to beat up 40-50 year old cars..with everything else happening with the economy and also NHRA..i actually think more racers would quit than whats coming in... Sportsman racing ..nah!

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Amen brother Jeff! Preach on my friend! Jim

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Just got my copy of Road & track magazine(april 09)--page 41 said that the 2010 mustang shelby will be a 540 HP engine up a "little" from the 09---not sure how this enters into this argument--but there are some numbers that are interesting---they talk about KR and GT500 engines and Im not a Ford guy so maybe--somebody can explain it---Comp 387

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

I believe that the Shelby GT500KR engine was available beginning in 2008; it was based on the Shelby GT500 engine but it was tweaked to produce 540 HP, compared to 500 HP for the ShelbyGT500. The 2010 Shelby GT500 engine is basically the same engine as the KR.
Bill Seabrooks - superfan1

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Everyone knows it's bogus. NHRA knows it's bogus at this point. But obviously, they don't really care.

Rather than beating this dead horse.... why don't you move on to another more justified one. The fact that NHRA knows it's bogus and just plain does not care. Beat that horse for a while, there isn't much left of this one.

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You know , who gives a s- - - t ? It is just a bracket race.! Scribble on the window what you want . ( and the best driver will win ) after the third round it is always about the same 10 guys.. Right? Just go race !!!!!!

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Wrong answer. We have a car that only fits A and AA. We'd also like a fair shot at winning class when it is contested.

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AHFS should take care of this, right? Like someone before said, someone driving one will screw up and hit the index too hard.

Just race. Mostly just a bracket race, right?

It'll work out.

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Time for a fresh bowl of popcorn and a cold one............................................

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Whoa, I still have copy of HotRod that announces the '65 single 4 Hemi and I owned a '67 L88 vette that I bought in Savannah Ga. I have friend in Tn that still has a '67 L88 in his garage.

Jim Rountree

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You are right about the '65 Hemi not being "line" production cars and them showing up in stock kinda made my Max Wedge car look weak.

Jim Rountree

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As a long time Max Wedge racer now in Nostalgia SS I have many friends that have put as much as $100,000.00 in their MW's and, on a Manufacturer's whim ,are now obsolete. The NHRA should protect those racers until the new cars are realistic factored.

Jim Rountree

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Does anyone remember the '68 Hemi Darts and Barracudas?

Lets see: specially built with special parts and built in limited no's.......and...they went straight to SS.

New Mustangs.

Let's see: specially built with special parts and built in limited numbers.......and.....they went straight to......STOCK?

Jim Rountree

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

Jim,

Forty years have passed and a lot has changed. Todays Stock rules are like yesterdays Super Stock rules. As delivered, the Cobra Jet is nowhere near being a Super Stock car. They do however pass tech for Stock Eliminator as delivered. Just like the 1968 Hemi cars were built for Super Stock and could also be campaigned as built. To me the real issue is the HP. And so far we really haven't seen enough to make an honest judgement.
I have posted on this subject way too much, but I think a lot of guys are really missing a very important point. The showroom cars that are being built today have way to much junk in them that can legally be removed. We should be welcoming these new factory cars. The GTO is a great example of a combination that was not submitted properly. Keep in mind that it was put in the books when we had one pound weight breaks for fuel injected cars. I hope that the production Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger are not submitted so heavy. I would also love to see the NHRA take a fresh look at the GTO.

Daren

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Was NHRA given the wrong numbers or that the numbers should be changed to fit another class?

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Lets take the 2006 model. The GTO was put in the books at 9.53. That allowed it to run A-C/FI. The fuel injected cars are now back in Stock at 1/2 lb weight breaks. The GTO would have been better off at 9.49. If there were no fuel injected classes at the time I think that GM would have submited them to run the faster classes. Please note that the net difference is approx. 12 pounds!

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I understand your point and I probably used the wrong example.

Take the 1965 Hemi B bodies. They were fully streetable with exhaust and everything, I even knew a guy that drove one for a while before racing it, yet they are not allowed in stock. Are the Mustangs street legal?

I think the question yet to be decided is what is the real HP for the Mustanges and like the '65 Mopars do they need to go to SS instead of Stock?

I am for race cars, I race a '64 Mopar but love all the various race cars from that era....what I don't like is a killer combo dumped into the eliminator bracket that makes any number of cars obsolete, especially a factory car.

I've read all the posts and brand loyality is not the question, a fair playing field is the goal.

I made my first pass in 1964, raced in 5 major associations, and seen it all but in the end it's the racers that put pressure on the associations to bring certain extra fast combinations into line. It's a slow process but it does work.

Good luck to all of you no matter what you drive.....but I hope I kick your butt....LOL!

BTW; does anyone remember the 1966 D/Dart, factory built, street legal yet not allowed in stock?

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Savoy,

Check out this previous thread here:

http://tinyurl.com/c797wv

Bill

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Treesavoy,

Travis Miller posted this, on that D-Dart thread:

"The reason the D/Darts got to run Stock without enough being produced was back then the specs were sent to NHRA preproduction. Cars were put in the classguide with the understanding that enough cars would be built in the model year. Sometime in later years it must have come to light that not enough D/Darts were built for Stock class forcing them into S/S only.

Travis"

Hope this helps....

A apologize for this blatant hijack; now, back to your regularly scheduled rant....


Bill

Re: Mustang MPH?
 

That thing probably goes for hundreds of cars/combo's in the guide..but in your exapmle i dont really follow..The GTO has been granted a lower HP than Stock,still has that,HP has also been changed somewhere along the line(hit or decrease?)It would be 9.37 with the original hp...as in SS...now 9.53 as you stated..but it couldn't have been that when it arrived then..it also only take's a couple of hp(one hit) to bring it up one class if someone desire...and if it's uncompetitive ..well then a letter asking for lowering hp should be sent i guess..so.. not sure what your example is worth in this case..but in some other cases i am well aware what you saying..

p.s. On a personal note i'm still unsure if i think it was´a good move to let the cars go one class up and one down supposed to the old rule "original and one down only" .it created some new games..