Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Because all you do is "BITCH AND COMPLAIN" and do your really think for a second that anyone in the grand stands likes to watch a FWD car or even cares?. Be honest..... I doubt it. Be happy with what you have now. The average spectator wants to see a show of some sort for his dollar. Without spectators you have nothing. Thats exactly why they vacate the stands when you guys run. They have better things to do and are not interested. You can quote me all you want as I just dont care anymore. I went thru this crap when Top Stock was started years ago with all of the whinning and complainning and I just dont need it or you. Have a nice life.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Congrats fellas sounds like you've managed to kill this thing before it's born. Thank you. Same old story, 'You have to let Johnny play" even if he can't hit the ball, shoot the basket, ect. It's small wonder the HRA's haven't shown us the door. Yes there will be people who feel they are being excluded, or not being treated fairly, welcome to LIFE. Sorta makes me want to go Sat. nite bracket bracket racing or golfing, their both just as exciting. Joe

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Billy Nees has another Sunbird, and I still have my Turismo (that one has been on 'injured reserve' until last summer)

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

The beauty of Stock Eliminator is the diverse combinations that show up to the race track. I love it. Anything that people dream up. 4,6 8 cylinders, Fwd, you name it.
I think the most boring aspect of Drag racing is the pro categories. All of them look the same and perform the same. Basically the fuel categories are the same. Pro stock is boring as hell with look alike bodies. Hell take the stickers off the front of those cars and put them in primer and you couldn't tell what make they are.
At least with stock and super stock at least you know what make of car is going down the race track.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Please look at the title to this thread

"WHAT IF"

Terry Bell

I appreciate what you doing here (dicussing how to save our sport and possibly how to save us from ourselves) If you and your partner were to pull something like this off I would definitley support it!!

Jim Wahl

"The FWD (slugs) cars a joke when it comes to spectator intrest"

I dont look at this as a slam from Terry on the FWD cars. Its the spetator interest part that he is talking about so lets not get to personal here.


buzzinhalfdozen

Sorta makes me want to go Sat. nite bracket bracket racing or golfing, their both just as exciting. Joe

Been doing this for the past 5 yrs! Alot less expensive and the only bitching is me about my own golf game

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Personally, I'm just glad I have a place to play right now. The "HRAs" have to be tired of hearing this stuff, sounds like nobody is happy with anything. We are so high maintence with all the tech issues I'm suprised they have not done away with us by now. The hard working tech officials are constantly complained about, they must really love this stuff to put up with the B.S. I can't imagine no officials reading or hearing about this. They could fill the place up with bracket cars and have less expense with far fewer tech problems and fewer workers. It is so dumbed down now with soft indexes a monkey could make one run under. Seems like everybody wants a rules advantage for themselves.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Terry, Good Luck starting an Association. Dont forget to use your best judgement to create YOUR idea of where it should go and as you already see the vocal minority will never agree.(on anything) You still need to keep the GOAL in sight and if it cannot attract the people you will know you tried with good intentions.
If a sport with 10 classes with excitement and color and appeal could be created for the Spectator appeal it can draw people to create a car to compete. If they dont care to adapt to the racing they can stay with the HRAs and complain. The HRAs listened too much and dumbed down their segment of racing to where it is today.. Bracket racing class cars with MASSIVE expensive modifications in front of empty grand stands....
Come on Fords and Dodges.....

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Do not forget one important thing. If this becomes a reality it is not my ideas or my association. Its YOURS....the legal class sportsman racers. I was only "Thinking outloud" and all of a sudden I recieve all of these attacks and I expressed MY opinions in return. It seems that if you like RED cars and someone on here likes BLUE cars everything you say or do is all wrong an an offense to someone else who likes another "color" of race car. I NEVER said anyone was going to be left out or made non competetive. Im always "Fishing" for ideas and response but everyone who reads this stuff and loves stock and S/S racing needs to think about what can you (we) do to attract spectators and a fan base. The way it is now just is NOT working and as Dick says and its been "DUMBED DOWN" for years and the only people who watch our kind of racing are either family, friends, or a very small percentage who understand the stock and S/S concept. . Anything new cannot be exactly like NHRA or IHRA has now. With all of the tech issues (IF the HRA's continue inspecting cars) and (what happened to the "lets weigh pistons and rods?) the legal class cars have become a liability and a pain in the butt. Again....READ what Chuck Norton wrote about class racing and think about it. My 3 cents worth.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Terry I think your ideas were a lot more than red cars vs. blue cars. It seems to me you and Dick Butler have dreamed up this 10 class senario (or something very similar).
You should take a lesson from top stock. It has not taken off the way you wanted it to. I think you thought it would obsolete stock as it is now.
To have a lot of classes gives "EVERYONE" a chance to compete not just those with deep pockets.
Just listen to all the complaining on here about the Mustangs and Challengers. Why don't everybody go and buy one? Everyone agrees they are going to be impossible to beat in their class.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Gentlemen,

You're arguing a moot point. For the last 5 years I've laid out of class racing but have been to a number of national and regional events as a spectator.

After the fuel cars run a good 50% of the people leave the stands for the hot dog stand, when you guy's run the only people that are left in the stands are your crew and relatives and guys like me that appreciate the classes. So, what difference does it make how fast or slow the car goes a vast majority are still eating their hot dogs and watching John Force and crew go through their antics.

I would bet that 90% of fans have absolutely no idea the dynamics of our classes. I always heard people ask why one car leaves before the other, comments on how slow the cars were including the upper class cars, and they don't understand how the slower car could win.

Our part of the show just is not spectator friendly unless they are extremely knowledgeable, so arguing about the fwd's being slow are moot...the fans think all our cars are slow...although some like watching us for the wheel stands we do.

How I see it.

Jim

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Art, Everyone can compete.... Thats what Bracket racing at your local track is for. Guys with ALL cars can compete but NHRA AND IHRA have been interested in Entry money so long they Dumbed it down to limit Class racing by pure numbers of classes allowed and dilute the total number of cars available to run class. Have you looked at the class winners at cajun Nationals yet...over 50% of SS classes run were BYE runs. The eliminator has been turned into the goal because there are FEW highly populated classes today.
I know we can use AH as an excuse to point out the cost of SS racing today. Use FWD as an example of Cheaper opportunity to race but the point is Bracket racing is Bracket racing with or without a Class designation on your window. I feel for the good of Stk and SS the heads up class format has the greatest appeal outside your garage( the individual). Not the eliminator. See test and tune nights where people race each other heads up (not recognizing factoring) and have a ball and bring friends who pay money for food etc etc.
TOP/STK and Jr. Stock are alive and well in Div 1 where there are NUMBERS of cars which can fit. What If a manufacturer stepped up with 1000$ per event guess where more cars would be in the class structure.
Today it means nothing which class you pick as there is no money difference in pay out.SO eliminator can earn more money.10 Classes that paid $1000 per class win would MEAN something to everyone who races today . They would change their attitude to be included (and Probably their car they race)
Limit classes, more sponsors to WIN a class not participate. We all see what happened when it doesnt mean you Beat anyone....No money from sponsors as it MEANS nothing to make a BYE run.
Which would excite you more qualifying with a FWD car for no money or having a chance to RACE for $1000 to win a class of 10 cars? Every time you went to a meet.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Dick, Top Stk and Jr Stk is not live and well in D1, they have done away with most of their races due to no $$ support,

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Art,

Putting forth ideas for improvement is not bashing. Everyone and everything has room for improvement (especially myself ;)). I love IHRA and NHRA, and this new concept for a racing venue and 100% support it all.

I dont agree things are more of a level playing field. NHRA and IHRA has made great strides, but some of the things like aftermarket parts and wrong intake runner CCs are overcoming the improvements. The AHFS is way better than doing nothing, but it is not supported by proper statistical methods. If I don't stay quiet about those things am I bashing? I dont think so.

I love my wife, but if she spends a bit too much at the store, I say something about that too! (Ask Alex, DK, Stacy and Nitro, they know how she can spend!) Stacy calls it "waisting money on snacky SH*^." It doesnt mean I am bashing my wife.

Combine classes only where it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense, don't do it. There are tons of ways as Terry says to combine classes. There are way too many.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Firstly, I agree arguing is not productive, but America is all about a healthy debate. It is what we do. Secondly, take all the real cars out of the events and there is no cool cars to see in the pits. Ask Billy Meyers how well that worked in IHRA when he owned it. It failed miserably, not that they probably couldnt eliminate one class or another. I submit after watching those fuel cars the fans enjoy the most getting a great sausage and walking around to see all the cool cars. No cool cars, no sausage, no ticket sales. See one TF car you seen them all.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

So Terry,where do you draw the line between raceable and slow? 14 sec,13 sec,12 sec 11.50 sec??????????

Ed F.
Mid 13s,but alot more
under my index than alot
of "fast" cars.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

15 to 15.75 or so. There are some really cool stuff that runs U and V. I used to love (still do) the old Oldsmobiles like the ones that Jack Mullin's and Racing Head Service (Ivars Smeltniks) ran. Tom Goulds Corvair is an icon and he can still kick butt at his age. I hope to have his health when I get there. Im partial because Ive done his heads (for free) since the middle/late 70's and they have ALWAYS passed NHRA and IHRA tech. I did Bill Drevo's Citation X-11 (front wheel drive by the way) heads (in the stone age-early eighties) when he set the NHRA record at Rockingham years ago so YES I like the slower cars also. I also think Clayton Wrights U/SA wagon is one sweet ride and have thought about a 60 Chebbie wagon like Captian Jacks for myself now that the 3 speed is legal but that is a lot of weight to haul to the track. Think what you want about me but I like ALL stockers and most S/S cars. I remember when being a member of "The SLUG ARMY" was a badge to be worn proudly and not a put down as some seem to think.. I guess that was before your time and several others on here.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Dick where were"YOU in the late 70'S????????
Do you realize there were 50 stock classes then????????
It's more than the normal munber of fingers and toes, BUT there are 51 stock classes today. Only because of the AA/stock cars.
They were the last ones in so why not be the first ones out. LOL
A net gain of "1" for 30 years.
So whats your point
Terry I wish I could belive what you say is what you think. But at 15.75 only one class (Steve Polhills)would really be affected. If that is truly your goal why not leave things as they are?
One class isn't going to turn the "masses" away.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Again....I NEVER said anything would be changed. I threw out suggestions, ideas, etc. I remember saying we were not going to "Reinvent the Wheel" about a zillion posts back but some of you want to make a debate about ANYTHING I say on here. Give it a rest already. Id be more worried about NHRA doing away with classes that are less popular (car count) than anything I ever said. If the economy was not what it was/is (poor) they had every intention of dropping seperate FWD classes THIS year (believe it or not-I dont care but it was talked about) and putting them into RWD classes. Even Im not that stupid to think they could run with that deal.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

And personally I think there is quite a bit of fan appeal. When a car like mine runs a SS/AM car and gets a 5 second head start. There is a lot of anticipation as the SS/AM is going 65 mph faster than me at the stripe.
In my view that is good racing.
I only wish nhra would run qualifying off the index. That would give people a reason to watch stock and super stock.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Terry as far as the getting rid of fwd cars goes. I'll file that rumor right next to the cylinder head runner volume debacle.
It seems like much ado about nothing We are well in to the season now and nothing has really changed.
My head is about 20 cc's larger than a stock head. Imagine if they were to use mine as a guide. LOL

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Thanks for bringing that up, Art. That was going to be in my next post.

I would hope a new association would be better at promoting fast vs slower, handicap racing.
First thing you do is run time trials off the index with a staggered head start. It takes no longer for both cars to complete the quarter mile. What it does, is give spectators and racers alike, a preview of what our actual races look like. Plus ,it's good practice for the racers.
There is nothing so boring ,even for me, as two days of time trials , waiting for the lower class car to complete his run. Imagine what the casual spectator thinks.
Now, watch what happens during actual eliminations with the big head starts. Half the spectators stand up and cheer for the slower, underdog car, and the other half cheers for the come from behind rocketship A or B car.
It's all in the presentation, and the capability of the announcer at hand.

FWD cars- This calls for a different post. Still working on that.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Art, Not to drag this out but did you answer my question?
If you had a choice in a drag racing organization of qualifying at NHRA or IHRA meet and earning nothing or possibly racing for $!000 every time you raced which would you chose?

This is not about doing away with anyone, any car or transmission. I understood it to be about doing something which could HELP Drag racing,in general. Maybe help get sponsors? maybe get people to watch and get sponsors to notice Stk or SS as a place to PAY money for winning or sponsoring.

The Date of the racing isnt at issue only the numbers of classes.( which affects the above)

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Dick if what you are saying is true.
Then Top Stock should be equal to or better than building a better mousetrap.
"Your" opinion is there are to many classes. But you know what they say about opinions.
Have you ever thought about the possibility that a manufacturer would rather be able to sell his wares to a larger segment of cars, rather than just a few?
As far as money is concerned sure I'd like more of it. BUT If I had to spend $15,000 to make $1000 you can keep it
How about you build a Prostocker they will pay you $1500 get to qualify. And no Challengers or blown Mustangs

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

[QUOTE] I only wish nhra would run qualifying off the index. That would give people a reason to watch stock and super stock. [QUOTE]

Div 4 does that a lot. Makes it more interesting for sure. And unless you can run more than 1.4 under, no reason to not go flat out. It's like Pat's CIC race, with no index penalty or money. A few do sandbag in qualifying to end up at the bottom when everybody knows they are faster. Guess I'm too dumb to understand why that is.

Still looks like a bracket race from the grandstands.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Yak , I'll wait for that post @ add my opinion. FWD Race cars!!!!!!!!!

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Terry,

With all due respect for your thoughts, my performance at, and the fans apparent groans after I lost my '06 quarters race to Ryan McClannahan (Mile Highs) as told me by other racers, should beg to differ with your thoughts of fans not caring about watching FWD race cars...don't believe me, call Bruce Kamada @ Bandimere Speedway, and ask him about his comments about me after my .006 package in Rd three at the race, and them talking about me again after round three was over (I heard that myself as I was cooling my car down). Not all fans share those thoughts of yours about fwd's or the whole category...

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Terry,

Now that I read this post of yours, I'll cut you some slack on your other thoughts, and I'm glad that you help Bill Drevo's Citation be the record holder/divisional race winner it was. However, I still feel that fans love us too...not all of them are nitro injected!!!

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Art, Thanks for the response. In this time of economic pressure sponsors for EVERYthing are few and far between. They are Drained trying to cover the NHRA official costs.
TOP/STK and JR/STK had racers willing to run for their entry back never mind sponsors. They Love the racing heads up. The were quoted as the "most fun Ive had in Years"
Div 3 is willing to run it if someone else organizes it since today there are only 10 -12 cars that can fit easily.
Div 1 had one extra sponsor, IHRA Div 9 has guys who run it. The Economy in general is stopping converts from moving motor HP or Body to get there. If It could be officially accepted and run it WOULD work better. Look at the Hemi Shoot out the racers them selves created it and Chrysler Sponsored it.NHRA liked the MOPAR label and probably benefited other ways too.
If you could race for the $1000 continuosly and sponsors began adding contingency money and your class only got to run eliminator for your ENTRY money wouldnt the long run expenditure of $15,000 for a new car that fit the race become mildly interesting?
Thanks again. The Whole discussion is good.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

That association seems to be strictly bracket racing, no real classes only et brackets.
And I presume a level playing field.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

"What if" has gotten off course here, cut the bull and give Alex time to post. He has alot to overcome before he can commit to a program. With all that has taken place with regards to cost and travel now NHRA gives us a death blow on top of everything else. If there was ever a time to pursue a new venue it is NOW. Stop bitching at each other and band together in hopes of a viable Org. The more you all go on and on you will push away anyone willing to even try. Give a little, you all have no idea the problems he has to overcome.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

AMEM, Bob

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

I love Mark's suggestion of running time trials staggered off of the index's.
This would not only be more interesting to the spectators but would be for the racers as well.
It would be interesting (fun) to see just how much stronger some are against their index than others, rather just reading it off a qualifing sheet.
I don't know what additional manpower requirements in the tower this would entail. Maybe it could be chaulked up as some of the additional "enhancements" we're supposed to be getting.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

I don't think it would take much manpower to do. They have the class you run on the tech card.. Or the racers could write it on the windows like a dial in.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

i appreciate anyone trying to bring back class racing. let us give him a chance. i for one will support it as much as possible no matter what he comes up with.

Re: "WHAT IF" part 4
 

I have a novel idea.....why don't we let them come up with a solid plan....then let's all b**ch about it.