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-   -   Live from Indy!!! US Nationals (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=20023)

Ed Wright 09-04-2009 08:17 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Great post Chuck! As usual. I also wondered where the restriction on dry ice was located.

Don't have my rule book here in the office. I don't know which version we get here in the middle of the country.

keith ohanesian 09-04-2009 08:21 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
In my own opinion some folks get the special DANNY book. I think next year we at division 1 should send Rick Campbell out there. Wow would that be fun for most of the racers attending.( And I meant that in a good way R.C)

By the way Bryan Worner can you cut the grass already I'm almost ready to leave for skyview..

stage1scott 09-04-2009 08:35 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
I have read and re-read my 09 NHRA rule book and cannot find where it says dry ice is illegal. I also went to nhra.com and the only reference I could find to dry ice with a search concerned alcohol cars.

From general regs, page 250:
“Fuel/Air: Any method of artificially cooling or heating fuel prohibited
(i.e. cool cans,Freon,wet rags, etc), except as noted in Class
Requirements. Cool cans, wet towels, etc. are permitted in Super
Stock, Stock,Super Comp, Super Gas, Super Street, and E.T.
Classes. Wet towels, rags, ice, etc. must be removed before vehicle
leaves staging area. Ambient-temperature air only; Cooling or
otherwise changing the conditions of the intake air is prohibited.
Spraying the intake with any artificial spray or coolant prohibited.”

From stock regs, page 105, under fuel system:
“All fuel system components (regulators, cool cans, etc) must be installed
not less than 6 inches in front of firewall.”

In fact, the only place in the rules or amendments the words “DRY ICE” are used in under the Alcohol section:

"Artificial cooling and/or heating of fuel confined to the pit area only. The use of dry ice and/or liquid nitrogen for artificial cooling of fuel prohibited"

Now, Just a few weeks ago, I questioned how Garlits got into stock without grade points and several other members on here pointed out he is a past champ, and that is how it works, and I was happy to gain that knowledge. It will come as no surprise to anyone who frequents this forum that I consider the DeFranks as friends. I DO NOT participate in their racetrack activities, so I don’t begin to pretend I know what they do or do not do in prepping their cars for a round of racing. I also have no stock or super stock vehicle competing, nor will I anytime soon, as it is beyond my reach time and money wise. So I really do not have a dog in this fight, except from a definitions point of view, just as in the Garlits example above. I am a huge stock/superstock fan, and use this forum to follow racing, especially Indy, and appreciate the coverage and pics from Patsy Hill, as it is the closest thing to being there. But if an NHRA official was notified and didn't see any reason to intervene, it would seem the "east coast" rulebook has the same lack of wording concerning dry ice as my "west coast" rulebook.

all you folks at Indy, keep racing and having fun, wish I was there!

Chuck Norton 09-04-2009 08:39 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keith ohanesian (Post 138317)
In my own opinion some folks get the special DANNY book. I think next year we at division 1 should send Rick Campbell out there. Wow would that be fun for most of the racers attending.( And I meant that in a good way R.C)
Keith,

I'm wondering if that one is going to cost extra as well or if it will be available online? I've known Danny for just about 40 years and I'm still waiting for the "break" that reportedly goes with the honor.

It's always a treat when new tech guys show up from "out of town." Travis Miller came out here for the Winternationals about fifteen years or so ago and found stuff on my car that hadn't been noticed by anyone locally for a long time. Same thing could be said for Elroy, Wesley, Marty Barratt, and Greg X., and Wayne Lewis when they've showed up over the years. I'd like to see Dave Ley out here with his official shirt on as well. I believe that having those guys come to town provides a healthy exchange of ideas and keeps everyone on the same page. I've even found out a few things when my car was teched at various times by Super category specialists as well. I certainly hope that NHRA finds the bucks to keep the exchange of tech viewpoints flowing. It's good for the sport.

c

keith ohanesian 09-04-2009 08:49 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
That's just one part of Indy Chuck! We meet in the middle. I've seen your your tech on the west coast. Its laid back and the limits are stretched. Then when an east coast tech takes a look and makes a foul wellllll lets call DANNY over. Newman Neeewwwman am I wrong?

pro7474 09-04-2009 09:07 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
I enjoy the live from the track and the pictures
and now that the CLASS part of the racing is done we can get on with the bracket part.
Chris Lamb

Todd Hoven 09-04-2009 09:43 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pro7474 (Post 138331)
I enjoy the live from the track and the pictures
and now that the CLASS part of the racing is done we can get on with the bracket part.
Chris Lamb
Untill there is a Heads UP! Then the Bracket guy cries about heads up's and we should eliminate that part of racing so we can see who the best driver is. GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK. This stuff can effect any part of the race, that is why we have to enforce the rules evenly so everybody has the same chance.

Scott Loge 09-04-2009 10:06 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Larry and Patsy,

I apologize if my post was taken wrong, I had a few pours of kentucky's finest and was a little frustrated with some other things, but i am tired of hearing all the west/east coast bias BS. We as a family have traveled as far east as possible to see how we "stack up" against what we consider the best of the best. Our travels have proven that on any given day different outcomes are possible.

Chuck,
Great to see your still following this and I did not know i had a west coast rulebook until I could not find certain rules that people keep finding. I do not know the book as well as others and am hoping they are all ther same. The funny thing is we tear each other apart over this and the problem truly lies in the interpretation that is handed out in each division.

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 10:15 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
In the barn for the first session this morning: Farrell, Boudreau, 3 Mustangs, Livingston, Pierce, Morgan, and Paula Cotten. On the other (bad) side of the barn were Bishop and Findell. Usually that side is reserved for pulling a piston. There is another session this afternoon, so I will let you know who goes for that one.

On the dry ice issue--It does not say dry ice specifically--but ARTIFICIAL coolants. Which is what dry ice is--it does not occur in nature, but is man-made. I just know if they were not doing anything wrong, they sure were trying not to have anybody see what they were doing. Hey, it was 80 degrees here yesterday and you have 2 men with gloves on by his car, and smoke coming up. With the official being told, they chose to turn the other way.

Maybe at least with all this conversation about this issue, they will come out and say the words specifically "dry ice" in next years rulebook. I just know that everyone east of the Mississippi are under the assumption that dry ice is illegal. (But we all know about that word ASSUME).

Mr. Defrank asked the official to not allow us to take pictures of his car, so we didn't. So I just assume he didn't want anybody to see what they were doing.

Anyway we are back to having fun!

A few pictures a little later.

Patsy

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 10:26 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Pictures from teardown this morning.

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/001-5.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/002-5.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/003-5.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/004-6.jpg

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 10:29 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/005-5.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/006-5.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/007-4.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/008-4.jpg

X-TECH MAN 09-04-2009 10:31 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norton (Post 138312)
Being old really sucks!! First, I'm not at Indy and that's enough of a frustration in itself but now, I can't tell if I've got an "east coast" or a "west coast" rulebook. I missed most of both football games on TV last night because I was trying to determine which book I really have. I know that none of the contributors to this critical discussion would deliberately mislead any of the loyal readers so I'm becoming even more confused than usual.

I can't find any reference to dry ice in my book. I've looked on page 250 where it talks about cool cans, Freon, wet rags, etc. and it doesn't mention dry ice. I've looked on page 105 where the fuel system limitations for Stock Eliminator are described, right down to where we can't put the (legal) cool can and it doesn't mention dry ice. All I can find is the paragraph on page 250 where it says that we can't artificially cool or heat the fuel. Putting ice (dry or wet) on the intake manifold seems to me to not be cooling the fuel, but cooling a piece of metal. I'm thinking that putting dry ice in the fuel cell would be considering cooling the fuel? Running an intercooler to cool the incoming air would be illegal since it involves changing the ambient temperature of the air that enters the induction system and that's specifically banned. The next sentence says that all towels and ice (type not specified) must be removed before leaving the staging "area" and I interpret that to mean the staging lanes. Larry/Patsy, where am I going wrong? Putting a cold substance (not Freon, but ice of any type) on the manifold must be accomplishing the same thing (cooling a piece of metal). As long as everything is removed before pulling out of the staging lanes, it seems to be OK according to the book they sent me?

So, Scott, was I sent an "east" or "west" coast book? Or, am I completely off base and looking in the wrong place? Assuming that I have a "west" coast book since I drive by NHRA offices almost every day, could someone please e-mail me the wording of an "east" coast book so that i can compare and contract the differences?

Since I have to pay extra for a book for 2010 anyway, I want to be sure to get them both.

Keep having fun. At least some of you are there!!

c
chuck.....I think what they mean is an EAST COAST TECH INSPECTION vs a WEST COAST TECH INSPECTION (tear down)).....lol. Ed....Im not clear on the MID WEST interpatation either. Maybe its a little of both ? Does anyone know what its called in the south ?

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 10:31 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/009-4.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/010-4.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/011-4.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/012-4.jpg

bsa633 09-04-2009 10:33 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Chuck...you still got it..giving lessons..just wish you were at Indy filling out this thread with your observations!

cheers!

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 10:35 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/013-4.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/015-4.jpg

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/019-3.jpg
Brent Hajek, Ohio George Montgomery and Larry

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/020-3.jpg
Two Legends: John Livingston and Bobby Warren

herbjr 09-04-2009 10:38 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-TECH MAN (Post 138356)
Does anyone know what its called in the south ?

Terry its the south. Helmet and seat belts only.

Harry 6674 09-04-2009 11:17 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 138230)
We were going to have a picture of Beaudrou and Jimmy Defrank in staging before B/SA semi-finals, but Jimmy declined to have his picture made for reasons unknown. But it was really "COOL" to see Darrel Wikle and another crewmember with gloves on to remove the dry ice from the intake manifold and to carefully place the carb base plate (which appeared to be non-stock) that had been frozen in dry ice in the trunk. Evidently the "left coast rulebook" is different from the "right coast rulebook".

And on the winning hand (Jim Beaudro) used 10 # of ice in zip lock bags to cool the engine and cool water running thru the radiator. The good old fashioned way (and legal).

Congratulations Jim Beaudro for your class win and maybe tomorrow Jimmy will take time to read the "East of the Mississippi rulebook", which is the one everyone gets in the mail.

Larry

p.s. I know what I saw.
Maybe when you can tell the difference between a carb base plate and an air cleaner people will take you serious and you will understand the rule book as it is written. I guess they should have let you take the picture, that would have made it all better and they wouldn't have been called cheaters. What a joke.

Chad Mahlosky 09-04-2009 11:52 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry 6674 (Post 138369)
Maybe when you can tell the difference between a carb base plate and an air cleaner people will take you serious and you will understand the rule book as it is written. I guess they should have let you take the picture, that would have made it all better and they wouldn't have been called cheaters. What a joke.
While Larry and Patsy provides us (those not there) with photos, details, and eye witness accounts of what is going on at the US Nationals, you have provided nothing to this thread with the above statement. I live in Kentucky, and I thought dry ice was illegal too. He pointed it out to the official, nothing was done...that should be the end of it until there is a statement made from above regarding the legality of said dry ice/liquid nitrogen.

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 11:55 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
In the barn this afternoon: Johnny Fisher, Mitch Truman, and Tibor Kadar. Kadar is pulling a piston.

On Truman's win yesterday--he was running Joey Wilkes who got timed out in the finals. Something about the throttle cable ( I think) broke.

More later.

Patsy

Floyd Staggs 09-04-2009 11:56 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Harry, you are an idiot. That was a simple mistake and the Hill's do us all a favor by taking pictures and telling us what is going on. Leave them alone. Keep your criticism to your self.

will prater 09-04-2009 11:57 AM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
What would be the effect of freezing the air cleaner base with nitrogen (dry ice)? Would that not be trying to lower the incoming air temperature?

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 12:07 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/024-2.jpg
Johnny Fisher K/SA winner

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/026-1.jpg
Mitch Truman E/SA winner

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/025-3.jpg
Tibor Kadar D/SA winner

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/o...cket/022-3.jpg
McNeel Freeman V/SA winners circle picture

Mike Pearson 09-04-2009 12:12 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by will prater (Post 138379)
What would be the effect of freezing the air cleaner base with nitrogen (dry ice)? Would that not be trying to lower the incoming air temperature?
Thats the fun of class run offs. seeing what all of the competitors do to their cars to try to squeeze every last HP out of it. Cooling intakes and carbs, Ice water in the radiator, Ultra thin oil in the engine. Heaters in the oil pan to make the oil thinner. All of these things have been a regular part of class eliminations for more years than I would like to count. Good luck to all of the guy's/ gal's that made the show.

Tony Janes 09-04-2009 12:47 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Dry Ice is Co2(Carbon Dioxide) not nitrogen

Ed Wright 09-04-2009 01:11 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Anybody notice the Chevy outrunning Stancil's Plymouth in SS/JA? Dang! I have a new hero.

Congrats to Byron Latino leaving on then out running Peter Biondo in SS/BM!!

Good job guys!!

ALMACK 09-04-2009 02:02 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Thanks Larry and Patsy for the pics and updates !! :)

Larry Hill 09-04-2009 02:18 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Well, it looks like Defrank is going to win B/SA after all and not even have to teardown. I heard that Boudreau was pitched for cam and they kept his carb. Also Phil Pierce was tossed for runners being too big. This is just a rumor, but Jim is not parked over here anymore.
Patsy

KEN BUGAJ 09-04-2009 02:29 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
I know Jim Boudreau and John Armstrong and Never ever would they cheat !

david ring 09-04-2009 02:42 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keith ohanesian (Post 138317)
In my own opinion some folks get the special DANNY book. I think next year we at division 1 should send Rick Campbell out there. Wow would that be fun for most of the racers attending.( And I meant that in a good way R.C)
I remember one time we showed up without a windshield on the altered and Ryck let us know not to come to the next race without one and pointed out where in the rule book it said that the windscreen must be of a certain height. I've never measured, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the altereds I'm seen from other divisions that don't meet Ryck's reading fo the rule book. And like Keith, I like Ryck's reading.

will prater 09-04-2009 02:44 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Janes (Post 138386)
Dry Ice is Co2(Carbon Dioxide) not nitrogen
Ha- no wonder I never passed chemistry class. Thanks

Andys dad 09-04-2009 03:21 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
opps

rod butcher 09-04-2009 03:31 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
To set the record straight Jim's cam lift was .005 over. He passed teardown with everything else including his carb. The lift for a 396/375 is supposed to be .520 and his was .525. Jim would never cheat intentionally and will have it right for next weekend. I have personally helped him through several record teardowns and can attest for his integrity.
rod butcher

Sean Kennedy 09-04-2009 03:37 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 138411)
Well, it looks like Defrank is going to win B/SA after all and not even have to teardown. I heard that Boudreau was pitched for cam and they kept his carb. Also Phil Pierce was tossed for runners being too big. This is just a rumor, but Jim is not parked over here anymore.
Patsy
How is it that they give a win to the runner up and not make them tear down? If the winner didn't pass, shouldn't they be checking the runner up in order to declare him the winner?

Julie Jordan 09-04-2009 03:47 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 138411)
Well, it looks like Defrank is going to win B/SA after all and not even have to teardown. I heard that Boudreau was pitched for cam and they kept his carb. Also Phil Pierce was tossed for runners being too big. This is just a rumor, but Jim is not parked over here anymore.
Patsy
RUMOR also has it that Boudreau and DeFrank agreed to run to the 1000' mark and shut off. Jimmy did, Boudreau didn't. Maybe that resulted in some bad karma?

chlngr73 09-04-2009 03:53 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Larry I got your message late last night, for some reason my phone didn't ring so I didn't get your number on caller ID. Try to call me again any time tonight, it's Friday so I'll be up late.:D

Sean Kennedy 09-04-2009 03:58 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Jordan (Post 138446)
RUMOR also has it that Boudreau and DeFrank agreed to run to the 1000' mark and shut off. Jimmy did, Boudreau didn't. Maybe that resulted in some bad karma?
Go check drag race central. All incrementals for that run were posted for that run, and Bourdeua had it at 1000'. I'm not even going to say what I think about that 1000 ft BS, someone will just flame me for it.

I'm sure I'll get flamed at just for mentioning this but... not wanting to run the whole race, trying to stop Mr. Hill from taking pictures.... that doesn't exactly make the case for saying they don't have something to hide. I think that car is a work of art, i spent a lot of time oohing and awing over it in Pomona. But doesn't it seem a little..... rude... to say the least to stop someone like Larry from taking pictures???

junior barns 09-04-2009 04:03 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Julie Jordan said

RUMOR also has it that Boudreau and DeFrank agreed to run to the 1000' mark and shut off. Jimmy did, Boudreau didn't. Maybe that resulted in some bad karma?


Boudreau won the race even in this situation based on the better reaction time! He got there first.

One of them was going to get tore down anyway.

AC 09-04-2009 04:10 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Jordan (Post 138446)
RUMOR also has it that Boudreau and DeFrank agreed to run to the 1000' mark and shut off. Jimmy did, Boudreau didn't. Maybe that resulted in some bad karma?
how do they pull that off, first to 1000' goes over the finish line first or they go and tell nhra we adopted the FC & TF finish line for our race??

Julie Jordan 09-04-2009 04:13 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC (Post 138454)
how do they pull that off, first to 1000' goes over the finish line first or they go and tell nhra we adopted the FC & TF finish line for our race??

Well I've never been in this position as I'm usually way behind another class car at the 1000' mark! lol A lot of the guys running for class agree to do this to protect their precious AHFS numbers. Whether they shut off, hit the brakes, whatever, I'm not sure.

Tony Janes 09-04-2009 04:16 PM
Re: Live from Indy!!! US Nationals
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Kennedy (Post 138442)
How is it that they give a win to the runner up and not make them tear down? If the winner didn't pass, shouldn't they be checking the runner up in order to declare him the winner?
They use to do that. In today's world not anymore. The selections are made and there are no additions.


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