Re: my opinion
 

Is it possible the autostart system caused the rule changes to courtesy staging and no deep staging?

Seems to me the elimination of deep staging and the requirement of courtesy staging might have actually hurt the "Touring Pros" or more Savvy racers. Knowing where you are in the staging beams every time and staging in the same place would be more of an advantage than it is now.

Re: my opinion
 

Micheal,

100 years ago when I started racing at ATCO Dragway it was a NASCAR sanctioned track (yes kiddies, NASCAR once dabbled in drag racing) and they ran what they called the "Leaver's Lose" system. It used two staging lights but only one yellow light then the green. Everyone loved it but that was when there were no electronics.

If it were used today we would have the same problems faced if we went to the pro tree.

JimR

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Don , Great idea on the tree ,seeing you have a fast car .

Re: my opinion
 

My "tilt the table" is to show an equitable way for all. All except the laggards that is.
And your right, I am entitled to my opinion. The fact I have not been on the track in a class car in nearly two years has no bearing on my ability to not only form, but offer an opinion. Does it carry any weight? I don't know, how does one formulate that equation? Is my opinion any more or less "weight worthy" than yours? Probably not, making both you and I equal in such regard. I can accept zero and would give as much to you. And like Don Kennedy said pages back, when one has nothing to offer, they naturally turn to the insults.
And hopefully I will get back on the track this next season. Progress is slow but being done right. Some relish in having the most trips down the track, I relish in taking the time to do it right. It is a job I will be proud of and will be a level of sophistication not seen on an AMC drag car.
Now back to the subject, please.

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Don, I think your age has clouded your judgement!

Dwayne

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...

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I was at Atco when it was Nascar sanctioned so I can confirm this is true

It was also IHRA for a while and they held at least one National event there....

There was also the UBRA and they promoted and held big bracket races there....

This thread is very funny.....Don Kennedy, you have some valid points but mostly your way off base......

I would agree with the complaint about "waiting" for someone. It is an irritating condition and is likely to get someone rubbed raw....and might lead to a miscue but then that is all part of racing...Controlling ones emotions and blocking that stuff out once you fire your car and prepare to race. There are numerous things that can happen that can get a racers concentration broken. If you let that happen you lost before you staged......

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A Pro Tree introduces more problems than it solves, and excludes more than it includes, *and* it doesn't solve the red-lighting problem. You're going to have cars that can't hit it shallow, and don't have enough adjustment to keep from going red when deep staging. You'd end up pushing people toward building certain combinations to optimize their R/T's, just as eliminating deep staging did. IMO, a more worthy (and likely) campaign "for" the little guy would be to permit deep staging... but we've already been down that road, and the arguments on both sides have been beat to death, so the likelihood of it returning is virtually nil -- the same as changing the starting system.

If red-lighting is "the" issue, adjust the car and/or the driver, use a practice tree, use a blinder if that suits your particular style, ad infinitum. No offense intended to anyone, but a lot of drivers would see immediate improvements if they would approach their driving like they do building engines or setting up cars. Just as "the slow guys" are often admonished to "work on their stuff", the same goes for driving -- Do NOT accept that a driver is stuck at a certain level of ability. While some are going to be blessed with more innate ability than others, *everyone* can learn and improve. But, just like making your car better, it takes willingness, time, effort, and dedication. I've worked with a lot of guys over the years, to varying degrees, and *everyone* can be better than they are right now.

Unless you simply "outlaw" the Pro Sportsman, nothing you do is going to change anything. They adapt and overcome, and that is what makes champions. Even if you eliminated R/T's from timeslips or changed the rollout from one event to the next, you'd end up getting the opposite effect from what you seek, because the best would adapt quicker . Some mentioned that a Pro Tree would be better for heads-up runs... Again, quite the opposite, as the faster car would have less fear of red-lighting, and you'd see less holeshot wins.

In terms of people coming to the lanes late, that's been covered in topics here before as well. People will do as much as you let them get away, so until you put Nitro Joe in charge, well, that's what you've got. (Most of the hitters carry anyway and have pager weather stations anyway, so the argument about waiting to the end to have a better chance doesn't hold water.)

In terms of points and traveling, it sounds like IHRA's Tournament of Champions system is just what you're looking for.

For all of the above: You have to think long-term, past the immediacy of any given "good idea".

$.02,

Re: my opinion
 

Some wanted a .5 pro tree to keep from going red. How is that different from a blinder? No problem going red with a blinder. Most want a change they think will make them more succesfull. Same guys (the drivers) will still win. Always been that way, will always be that way.

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I posted previously that NHRA was going to make an announcement regarding the suggestions to level the playing field in S/SS.The following change will be made starting
on 1/1/10.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...5/PC060468.jpg

Any input can be forwarded to D. Gracia at HQ Central.

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..

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How about to help the lagging situation. Before the eliminator is called you pull three tech cards of the drivers that are left in eliminations. Those are the first three pairs down the track.

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Don,take a close look at it then reply.
BTW I'm having a special sale on those diapers.I can send you two packs of 12 each for $4.99 each + shipping.

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It's Anthony.I thought you were through with this thread?

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..

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Jeff, I didn't see you respond to Mark's reply. If you did I must have missed it.


-Toby

Re: my opinion
 

I've got a great idea on how we can level the playing field against those Touring Pro Sportsman rascals:

How about we give all non-TPS (Touring Pro Sportsman) racers a handicap. How about .01 on the tree and .01 on the dial? That should even the playing field a little bit.

So, if a non-TPS racer had a .020 light it would really be a .010 light. And if a non-TPS racer were .020 over their dial they would really be .010 over.

Also, a non-TPS racer would have to red light by more than .010 for it to actually be a red light. So a -.004 light would really be a .006 light. A -.009 light would really be a .001 light etc... Same thing with the ETs.

And any light between .000 and .009 would not receive the handicap. Or maybe we could just round them all down to .000 lights. That's open for discussion.

Sound good? I know I could always use a couple of extra hundredths against those pesky TPS racers.


-Toby

Re: my opinion
 

[QUOTE=Do NOT accept that a driver is stuck at a certain level of ability. While some are going to be blessed with more innate ability than others, *everyone* can learn and improve. But, just like making your car better, it takes willingness, time, effort, and dedication. I've worked with a lot of guys over the years, to varying degrees, and *everyone* can be better than they are right now.

Unless you simply "outlaw" the Pro Sportsman, nothing you do is going to change anything. They adapt and overcome, and that is what makes champions. [/QUOTE]




Well said Mr. Beard. Generally speaking the rules in drag racing should not, and indeed could not be changed to adapt to every individual competitor's abilities. Should that happen it would strip away the competitive spirit that drives the sport. The ideal of improving ones self to the point of beating the best constitutes the competitive spirit, without which would eventually religate drag racing to a very boring and non-productive sport. Success in drag racing can be measured in different ways. For some it's financial gain (earning a living), for some it's the satisfaction of being competitive (and beating the best), and for others it's all about having fun participating in something they enjoy. Drag racing is not unlike any other venture, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. Those who work hardest, weather it be vehicle performance or driver performance, will realize the biggest gains. Our sport is what it is, and if we choose to play we need to adhere to the governing rules to the best of our abilities. I think most will agree the rules are not perfect........but what is.

Trying to change the "generally accepted" rules to compensate for ones inability to be competitive is not a constructive way to advance our sport.

Re: my opinion
 

Now that's a plan some people can get behind.
But let's take it one step further.ATPS racer is not allowed to take the stripe by more than .015 or they breakout.Also a TPS racer MUST give up an earned bye run to a non
TPR.All TPR racers MUST park in the dirt,where provided.
Anymore?

Re: my opinion
 

Jeff,

Over the years I have raced at tracks that did just that. After the third call the staging lanes were roped off with a track member there to make sure no one would try and sneak into the lanes.

The only problem would be giving the last couple of cars from the previous run having enough time to cool down.

If this is a "real" problem then post the ladders for every round except time trials, then everybody would race at a time dictated by the track.

JimR

Re: my opinion
 

I didn't feel like typing so much but here goes...

My point is if the racer claimed the points at the race, that's what he is stuck with. So if you claimed 6 national events and coincidently all were third round losses, then that's what you get, even if you went to 6 more races following and made it to the final on those 6 races.
The way it is now, you can hit all 24 races and then claim your best 6. There is an advantage in being a "professional" at this game, this being one of the big ones. Maybe it's the same as playing poker with x-ray vision of the deck?
I'm at a loss to think of any other sport that allows full-time professionals to compete with the amateurs. Like I said previously, if a racer wants to go to all 24 races, I see nothing wrong with it. I do have a problem with being able to pick and choose after the fact. Not allowing this would make it more equitable for the true Sportsman. Correct me if I'm wrong but there were a lot more world champions , call it a more diverse mix, before they points system changed to it's current system. I believe the evidence points to an advantage by a professional racer towards the championship.
Make any sense Toby?
Jeff

Re: my opinion
 

[QUOTE=Jeff Lee;155494]I didn't feel like typing so much but here goes...

My point is if the racer claimed the points at the race, that's what he is stuck with. So if you claimed 6 national events and coincidently all were third round losses, then that's what you get, even if you went to 6 more races following and made it to the final on those 6 races.

This is the way it's done. You claim your best 5 of your first 8 divisional's and your best 3 of your first 6 Nationals. Every race u attend after that you are just racing for $ and fun.

The way it is now, you can hit all 24 races and then claim your best 6. There is an advantage in being a "professional" at this game, this being one of the big ones. Maybe it's the same as playing poker with x-ray vision of the deck?

Not true. This is not how it's done.
Perfect example. His wins at the end of the year did not count towards his total
http://www.nhra.net/stats/pointsdtl....rn=6108&pt=556

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Whether they earn points early or not the "welfare" racers will then complain that they race too much and take purse money from the poor weekend worriors.Bitch,bitch,bitch,
moan,moan,moan.
The last 10 years has seen 6 world champions in stock.all but one were the dreaded
PSR's.You can beat them to one inch of their lives and they'll still get up and beat your whiney asses at the track.Stop worrying about everybody else and try to make yourself
competitive.
Let's see,red lights,hood scoops,what's next?I know,alot of the TPS's have nice tow rigs,who the hell are they to drive around with them when we only have a ****ty p/u or duelly.

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No, it doesn't make any sense. Did you even read Mark's post? I take it reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.


-Toby

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NO, it's the best three finishes of your first six races attended Nationally (and best five of the first eight divisional races attended). If a racer loses first round at the first six Nationals he/she attends, then wins the remaining 18 races, he/she gains 90 points Nationally, based on three first round losses at 30 points each. After the first six National Events he/she attends, they are racing for money only.

Re: my opinion
 

Sorry it doesn't make any sense to you. Guess I just can't comprehend why the points structure is geared the way it is. Maybe Toby or Ed can help me understand because in between all the jabs, nobody's addressed my major point; why do we have this points system over the previous points system which was in effect for a very long time? Since everybody here seems so versed in the new system, how does it relate to the old system? What are the advantages of one over the other?

David & Mike,
Thanks for clarifying best 3/6 Nationals and best 5/8 divisional races. I didn't mention that because my point is getting to pick and choose after the fact versus claiming the race at it's conclusion. Whether it's 3/6 or 6/6 was not my point. From my understanding the old system was a better system. I would like a clearer understanding as to why it was changed and whom benefited the most by the change. So far, nobody has addressed my question. And I could be educated to understand my assessment is incorrect. I was open to debate, not jabs.
Thanks,
Jeff

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Hahaha. I love it!

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My gosh Jeff! How can anyone explain how the current system is fair or skewed or otherwise not to your liking when you don't even know what the system is that you are complaining about. Nobody picks and chooses the points they claim. You can pick and choose the races you go to but the NHRA points fairies do the math so you don't have to. It's not that tricky. You're against something you don't understand. The first step is to understand, then complain.

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Why do you all make fun of a person who has a question about the points system just answer the question don't you all have any way to explain without being vindictive towards My friend Jeff. Hey you mocking my friend I can't wait to run you all so you should make sure you qualify to run me cause I am going to make sure I qualify to run you as You will never know when "LUCK" will show up > By the way if I run you all I will be first in the staging lanes show or else I will be in the water box not waiting for you . NHRA says come to the lanes so do it if you think you are that good show up immediately like NHRA is calling and look out for "LUCK"
be civil>

Johnny Shot You are phony just about everyone knows that just who are you I know and others know so don't embaressed yourself back off (BF)

TL I used to have some respect for you but belittle a person is not cool answer the question is the civil way .

mark wake up be civil

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One time at Band Camp..........

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Sean ????

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[QUOTE=Don Kennedy;155588]

> By the way if I run you all I will be first in the staging lanes show or else I will be in the water box not waiting for you .





Don, it's comments like these that should get you "Sportsman of the Year"!!!

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Don, be civil?

I thought I explained it fairly clearly, twice, how points were earned. Then a couple others gave examples as well.

I can't laugh at Toby's post?

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JL if you have a SS show up and we will see you has the skill and who has the "Luck" . I will be the very first person in the water box . See you there . NHRA calls us to the lanes I go you show up we race what is your problem not showing up first 'Scared " of "luck"

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The movie, "American Pie."

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Sean : my wife and i don't go to movies i mssed your point sorry

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How about this. Since NHRA has a limited quota on entries to national events, once the touring pro's have met their allowance on races claimed, they can not enter races if it bumps out a potential participant. If the quota is not met, then entry is open.

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But you continuously duck my question about the way points were claimed in the past....I understand the present system (although I had the number incorrect, again, the number is not the issue, it's the concept). Compared to the ways of old, who benefits with todays system?