Re: Lack of integrity
 

There is no such thing as a level playing field in this sport. Never has been. First example would be the SS/AHemi's at Indy this year, they all are pretty much the same, right, wrong ... Westscott Jr. had the field coverd by a ten and 1/2 until he broke. Now must good drivers feel they can make up a tenth on the tree but a ten and 1/2 is a stretch especially because Jr. is a good driver. Second example would be the fact that 3 DP's did not make the cut at Indy. Seems to me that there are people on this forum that think these cars are so underrated all you have to do is show up and your 1.10 under. Lets face it, if you lose you lose, whether it be by a tenth and 1/2, 2 tenths or six tenths, the time slip says the same thing. Same thing with a red light, if you are -.001 red it might as well be - .500 red, you still lose. Here is another example I will use because I know this combo, these cars all use the same engine combination ... James Findell qualifies #28 with his 340 at -.956 under, Bob Ackers is #134 at -.733 under, Dale Findell is #142 at - .716 under, Paula Cotten is number #150 at - .702 under. Now all of these cars can fit the same class even though they were in different classes at Indy. James has them covered by over 2 tenths. Doesn't seem level to me. Does this mean that the slower cars had problems, didn't work hard enough on their combos, didn't spend enough money, James has an unfair advantage, is he underfactored, no wait, they all run the same combo. I am sure there are other examples.

Just sayin' .... stock and super stock is not a socialist class, it is a performance class ... period. Some have it, some don't ...

The 350 went from 275 NHRA hp in 1993 to 346 hp in April 2010. hmmmm 17 yrs.
The 350 went from 285 NHRA hp in 1997 to 346 hp in January 2010. hummm 13 yrs.
The 346 went from 305 NHRA hp in 2001 to 373 hp in January 2010. hummm 9 yrs.

The 6.1 hemi went from 385 NHRA hp in 2009 to 399 hp in July of 2010. These cars have only been raced over the last 2 years.

The 5.7 hemi went from 305 NHRA hp in 2009 to 326 hp in September of 2010. This combo has only been raced for less than a year.

The 360 went from 275 NHRA hp in 2009 to 284 hp in September of 2010. This combo has only been raced this year.

Looks like the new combo still has a few years to go to be equal with their counter part as far as getting to their 'real hp' ...

Just sayin ...

Re: Lack of integrity
 

And the Cobra Jet is closing in on 3 years. Someone had pointed out that the LT1 were mixed in with the traditional classes for the first 3 years. Also note that this was a fairly new situation for the NHRA having such a disparity on the advertised horsepower and what the cars were capable of with the normal racer modifications (headers, cams, etc...).

A brand new category was created to deal with this problem, the Fuel Injected classes. Your post that suggests they took from 1993 to April of 2010 to get it right is misleading. They were in their own classes for the vast majority of the time until it got sorted out. Just like what we are asking for with the Cobra Jets and Drag Paks.

Just sayin'.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

They broke.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I have to laugh at this post.
Does anyone remember the 455 Pontiacs that were rated at 270 hp (I think). The 455 SD in a Firebird ran F/SA
And back then it was go fast racing no breakout.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

So James Findell should be in his own class for a couple years till everyone catches up with him? Likewise with Westcott Jr.

Or maybe they should put Jimmy Defrank, Biondo, Fletcher(s), Richardson(s), Leber, etc. in a class by themselves because they can .00 you to death in eliminations or run dead on.

Just sayin ...

Re: Lack of integrity
 

You've got to be kidding me!!

These combos you have refered to have changed a whopping 70hp during this time period to get in line with the old iron!!

Also these cars were moved to there own class for the majority of time that you refered to until the NHRA fixed the HP!!

No impacted on the class for the most part!!

Now, these new cars were all at the very least 100 hp short from where they should have started! From this point the system should start!!

Now they had there fun and it is time to put them in an FX class until the hp catches up to them!!

just sayin

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I guess you have to come up with some inane example when your prior post is shown to be factually inaccurate.

Jim Daniels, Ray Barton, and a couple of others might not sweat the Wescotts that much. No disrespect to the Wescotts because they work hard to get where they did. They didn't have the resources of Chrysler in their hip pocket for all of the research and development that they did. They also didn't have Chrysler lobbying the NHRA to let them run engine pieces that were in a class of their own. Oh, and the Hemis are in a class of their own!

Just sayin...

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Oh BTW, it took 10 plus years to add 75hp to the cars you referred to!! It will take 25 years or more for the new cars! I'll be pushing flowers by them!!!!!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Chuck a level playing field is not a guarantee that everyone with the same combination is going to run the same. People who are smarter, work harder, and spend more money are going to be faster. A level playing field is the idea that everyone who works hard, spends money and is smart about their car should have an a relatively equal chance to be successful. One of the new Challengers went 10 flat in E/Sa, my best run in my car is 10.62. It wouldn't matter if I had Warren Johnson building my motors with Warren Buffet's money I couldn't get within 5 tenths of that car.

How can anyone condone these bogus new cars with their obvious bogus hp ratings is beyond my comprehension. Ask John Shaul how he feels? How about the fact that Pendarvis went 9.70 in C/SA at Indy and the B/SA final between DeFrank and Hawk was something like 10.24 to 10.26. How about a decent A/SA like Larry Hill that gets out run by 5 tenths by a new Mustang. I had to run the Firebirds and Camaros with the LT1's and LS1's for years before enough pressure from racers forced NHRA to put them in their own class. I don't think we should have to wait years for them to be put in the right classes. A lot of us will be long gone from racing before the AHFS corrects the problem. How would you feel if one of the 5.9 Challenger's out ran you by 5 tenths heads up and they would? How fast do you think these cars are going to be when they start to get the converters, cam, headers and all the rest worked out?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

You guys just kill me ... oh well, Greg they already can, I have 3 classes I can move around in to avoid them, I did not have that same opportunity when the LT1's and LS1's came out, we could choose 2 classes. dgal, what is 'inane' ? and no I am not kidding anyone ..

I think you have to remember there were a lot more Camaros and Firebirds built back then because racers could afford them, hence enough cars to put them into another class. Not sure there will be that many more DP's & CJ's, not many racers can afford one.

Hey Captain Jack, doesn't Bob Shaw have your combo covered by 3 or 4 tenths? Where is the controversy on that combo. I think fair is fair and it should cover all classes, not just the top of the heap ..

Re: Lack of integrity
 

thanks for remembering chuck... yeah i got the screws 4 years ago when bob built the oldsmocaddy... with the olds motor rated at 35hp less in the caddy than it is in an olds. no one was upset or running to defend the "old school" car i was just S.O.L. ! i can never outrun the caddy... maybe - just maybe with another (that will make 4) AHFS hit he will go away to T/SA

however i will point out a few differences in the situation

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

captain jack

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Aw Jeez Jack.Now you probably pissedoff Fomoco,and there going to release a 220CI
blown injected nitrous assisted camaro rated at 140 HP to run Q-U/SA.We're toast.
Ah, maybe all of us but Billy.He might still have a trick up his sleeve.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Well said Captian Jack, just add mopar jacket and it's covered!!!!

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Jack, your response is bitter and you missed some important facts so I will fill in the blanks.

1. bob found a car that was actually built and had been in the book for 20 years, GM did not put a paper car into my class

All cars in the guide are built, at least 50 of them. There have been GM paper cars. Ford and Dodge did, in fact, build these cars by the letter of the NHRA rules to fit in Stock, and anyone had a chance to get one, or you can build your own. Who cars how long they have been around? An underfactored car is just that, and it doesn't matter which class or how long it's been hiding in the books. I'm not arguing that they are underrated.

2. bob has not been helped or encouraged by GM to kick my ***

Only because it he runs cars that no one cares about. He picked a class to take advantage of the system, good for him. BTW, Ford and Dodge did the same thing. If you don't think GM was thrilled about racers kicking butt with underrated LT and LS cars you are misinformed or one-sided.

3. bob is a great racer and a nice guy, if someone was gonna end my reign as U/SA hitter at least it was bob... not some prick with a couple of million dollars and a Ford racing jacket.

So someone is a prick because they have done well in life and have money to spend? Have you been to an NHRA race lately and seen the rigs, cars and paint jobs? That would account for 3/4 of the sportsman pits, so 3/4 of the racers are pricks? I think there are a lot of DP and CJ racers who love the brands and want to be a part of history. They may not understand NHRA racing they way you do, but they spent the money and want to run the balls off these cars. Wasn't that the original intent of the class?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Dean,

There have never been any cars in the guide that resemble what Ford and Dodge are putting on the tracks that didn't fall into Factory Experimental or something similar. To compare these cars to what has been in the guide under normal circumstances is disingenuous.

Don

Re: Lack of integrity
 

You forgot one thing, Dean. The NHRA Stock Eliminator rules were rewritten to allow cars that were never certified for production, never met any federal or state emissions or safety standards, and even some that were never even assembled by the factory, ever.

We now have some cars in Stock Eliminator that have engines that the OEM's never put in any car, ever.

That is something entirely different than even any of the previous "paper cars", GM, Ford, or Chrysler. Go ahead and bring up the 98 LT-1 F body. At least the LT-1 was installed by the factory and sold to the public in some car, in some year, at some time. At least it was emissions certified for sale and use on public roads.

What's next, cars that were never sold to the public in any form?After all, they're already listing package cars that never even ran, and won't even move under their own power when you buy them, in the guide.

No matter what else happens, Stock Eliminator has been changed radically. There is now a loophole that you could drive anything through, with a little help from an OEM.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I will agree with Don.

Alan, how many ZL-1 Camaros and Vettes have you seen driving around lately? There are many Stockers, albeit cool ones, that were built in limited numbers. Please show me where the rules were re-written? The DPs and CJs are produced and certified. Maybe not for the street, but Stockers never had to be, on 50 had to be built of a certain body style.

We get it, they are underrated and many racers are unhappy. But as you can see, the cars are taking hits on a regular basis and it will all work out.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I agree that Bob is a great racer and like Billy Ness and Neil Smedley, they are good at looking at combinations.
The truth is there is a different angle to the inception of Bob's combination that only a few know.

Bob's combination, although the car was manufactured with the EFI Oldsmobile engine, was never in the books from the beginning. Neil Smedley is the person that came up with the possibilities of how such combination would run in Stock.

I did some research on the combination and got all the data sheets from the engineers at Cadillac Motorsports at the time. They were still involved in drag racing with the FWD cars. During a discussion with Bob Dennis, he said he would like to explore this combination in SS class. I provided Bob with copies of the documents and we both submitted the information to NHRA.

NHRA did not approve the engine combination and said it was too old of an engine to be approved. Even Travis said the same thing on this board when this subject was brought up on this board many years ago.

One year later, Randy Mans approached me as asked me if I still had the data because he had talked to his division director and also Bob Lang and they told him they would take a look at it for approval. Randy got the information and later on, the engine combination was added to the books. Neil Smedley also talked to Bob about this combination and I consider Neil the person that came up with the combination.

So, in a nutshell, it is who you know at NHRA to get things approved.

As regards to those that spend money in their cars, there are many successful racers outside of this sport and have the money to do and build whatever they please. Many of you would be doing the same if you had the resources. Therefore, I consider criticism of the way their spend their money on their cars out of context.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I heard a story about one guy who requested HP off of a combo and the answer was "Not if YOU'RE building it!" :rolleyes:

Um... can someone explain to me how an engine makes a different amount of horsepower in a different body (sans a fresh-air system)?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

1990's nhra rule book: Stock

Sixty classes reserved for 1960-or-newer model-year American factory-production automobiles and some foreign and domestic sports cars. Classified per nhra performance rating as listed in the official nhra Stock Car Classification Guide. Only those cars listed in the Guide are eligible for competition. All cars in Stock classes must be factory-production assembled, showroom available and in the hands of the general public. AF through FF class cars limited to 1978 or newer.

But never wishing to miss out on some easy, fast cash this little diddy was added:

OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the Official nhra Stock Car Classification Guide. Special run must include a minimum of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precendent.

The apologists for these cars continue to say - Hey look guys the AHFS is doing it's job and it's only a matter of time before they are rated fairly. How damn gullible do you think we are? We know what has happened here. This issue has festered for nearly two years and it will continue to fester until these new cars are in their own classes or the nhra executives responsible for this mess are fired.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Although it is an Oldsmobile engine, it is a Cadillac application specific only. It was not available on any other GM models. The engine is the same version and specs of the carburated Oldsmobile version for the applicable years,. However, the Cadillac version has a Throttle Body with the injectors on the intake runners.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Dean Roberts the ZL cars and vettes were not in stock till they restarted AA, the old rule was 500 mim production

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Certified for what? You cannot license them for street use. You could get tags (license plates) for a ZL1 Camaro, a Thunderbolt, a Shelby, or any number of other cars. You cannot get tags for a new DP Challenger. You cannot get tags for a new crate motor Mustang. A DP Challenger isn't even a complete car, and Chrysler doesn't even have a street legal Challenger in the guide at that weight. You can bring up the ZL-1 all you want, but those cars could be driven home from the dealer, and legally tagged for street use. They were assembled, complete, with all street equipment, ready to drive, when you bought them. You don't see them because there were 69 built, 36 survive, and they're worth about $500K each.

How many crate motor 352 or 428 Mustangs do you see on the street, legally, with tags? NONE. How many of the Drag Pack Challengers do you see, on the street, legally, with tags? NONE. And they're only a year or two old, not 40 year old priceless collectible cars. Drag Packs aren't even produced, you can't even drive them. Hell, at least the old Ford cars, even the ones built at Dearborn Steel Tubing, or what ever place Ford contracted to build them, came complete and able to move under their own power. You can't even buy one of the crate motor cars running and driving. That's a major change from how Stock Eliminator once was.

Like I said, we now have cars in Stock Eliminator that the factory not only never assembled, but they have engines that were never even available in a complete car, period. We have cars that were never even built in the guide at weights they were never sold at. I suppose anything goes.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Everyone seems to be real quick to say "well, the AHFS will level everything out, eventually".

How long is eventually?

You do realize that now that the rules are wide open, and the OEM's do not have to even actually build anything, cars or engines, that they can now just release a new "engine", comprised of whatever they and the aftermarket have in the parts bin, and a new "car", every time one of their current paper cars is factored even close to reasonable? They only thing they have to worry about is how big a check written to NHRA it'll take to get the next one into the guide.

With the new open rules, they can produce new killers at will, they don't even have to put anything together, they just have to get a different pile of parts approved. So they can make their own killers obsolete any time they choose, and play the "one up" game until everyone in the class quits, out of frustration or lack of funds.

They've opened Pandora's Box right in the middle of sportsman drag racing, and most people seem to be too blind to see the endless possibilities of things they can do now. It's all cool, some think, because they're on the "up side" right now. Will it all still be so cool when you can't afford the next new $100K piece, and your near new car is worth less than 50% of what you have in it? Good luck with that.

The old adage "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it" couldn't be more appropriate than it is here.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Alan, I am not defending NHRA, however, I am curious too know how many are saying that the OEM's are paying NHRA to approve these cars?

As I understand, the OEM's submit the specs for approval and it is up to NHRA to accept them and racers have also submitted official documents and get them accepted or rejected without paying a fee.

If you are talking about giveaways such as official vehicles, all the OEM's, including GM has done so. In addition, the OEM's, like aftermarket manufacturers an sponsors, they also pay for their advertisements.

The Crux and reality of the issue is that NHRA accepted the horsepower factors that were submitted by the OEM's. I believe that even if the horsepower factors at the start of the induction of the CJ's and DP's were high, racers still would have purchased and raced these cars.

Again, I keep asking and nobody has responded to my question if GM had a Supercharged version of the Camaro or 'Vette in the books and available, if the dynamics of these discussions would be the same.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Alan, I am not defending NHRA, however, I am curious too know how many are saying that the OEM's are paying NHRA to approve these cars?

In the end noting is FREE there is always somekind of pay back when you ask for favors

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Where have you been? It has been said many times on this site that any new or similar GM car would be met with the same response by the racers.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Guys, I agree with what you're saying, but just so you know the new DPs & CJs CAN be licensed with some creative paprerwork. As long as you have an MSO, you COULD title them, but it'd be tricky.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Most Stock eliminator cars never came with headers, MSD ignitions, cheater cams, reverse manual valve bodies, 8 inch converters, aftermarket shifters,traction bars, electric water pump drives, and aftermarket spools and axles from the factory but most racers all run these in stock eliminator nowadays. In case you hadn't noticed stock eliminator hasn't been stock for a long time and the new factory cars are just another addition to the list. There is no place in the paragraph about the inclusion of 50 special units the oems may produce that says anything about engines. Go and reread your rule book. It States "OEM may apply for inclusion of any special production runs into the official NHRA Stock Car Classification Guide. Special runs must include a run of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available. Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent. "

Re: Lack of integrity
 

You need to add
Acid ported heads and intakes
Superceded carbs

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Dont forget Wheelie bars, heavy duty valve springs, stainless steel valves, shubeck type lifters, fuel cells, weight bars and boxes, aftermarket rear springs, roll bars (cages), non-street pump gas, 2 steps, aftermarket disc brakes, alum aftermarket heads, replacement intake manifolds, solid motor mounts, acid dipped fenders-hoods-doors, aftermarket lite wt. wheels, screw in rocker studs, trans that never came behind the combos being used, elec. radiator fans, lite wt. swinging assemblys, after market rods, smaller rod journals, damn Im tired of typing this.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Special runs must include a run of 50 units of an already accepted body style, need not be showroom available.

That is what it was changed to include ZL 1 cars and at that time they already knew the cj's were being built so its was dropped to 50 from 500 actual production cars. nhra did not even want a AA class at first, only after talk of new mustangs did they change their tune. If there had not been a AA class all the new cars would be in SS. Why is that so hard to understand, ford sealed the deal before the cars were done so they could also run Stock.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Attempting to compare 60 years worth of incremental changes to "Stockers" and these new ringer cars is like trying to compare a common cold to the Black Plague. The part I love best about the statement above is "Applications evaluated on an individual basis. Acceptance will not imply precedent." You have to pay to play with these guys. Just because one OEM got in after paying admission, does not mean the next OEM will get in for free. Pay up sucker.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Alan, Good post, and something that hasn't been discussed in all the related posts.
If a "crate motor" combo gets beat up too bad, then all the manufacturer has to do is change a few specs, re-submit it as a new combo (with a lower rating,of course) and we're back where we started. They can now play out this game for YEARS.
That is, unless NHRA deals with it heads up, now.
They won't. The title says it all.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Bob , the ZL-1 was back in the guide for 2-3 years before the new cars were brought in. In fact, the 50 cars built rule goes way back before that.

And still, most of the new cars are not "produced", you get a pile of parts you assemble to make a race car, most of them will not start or move under their own power. In no way do they compare to the ZL-1, the L-88, the Hemi cars, or even the Boss 429.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Yes, but until recently, say the last couple of years, the overwhelming vast majority of Stock Eliminator combinations started life as a running driving vehicle purchased as a complete motor vehicle from a dealer.

You are attempting to compare parts purchased in order to make a race car out of a production car to a pile of parts sold by an OEM that doesn't even start and run, much less move under its own power or pass any sort of DMV requirement. Keep stretching and reaching, you'll never get there, but the exercise might help.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

At least the CJ's are race ready when you receive them and they even include an owners manual/handbook.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/musta...ner_Guide4.pdf

Re: Lack of integrity
 

I didn't see any of the Windsor based engines in that user's guide. Not in the user's guide, or wrong year guide?

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Is shown in the engine maintenance section.

Re: Lack of integrity
 

Wrong, the Cobra Jets were available from Ford Dealers as complete running cars. They did not come with a vin tag but show me in the rule book where it says that all cars racing stock eliminator must pass a DMV requirement. The Drag pak cars may be a different story but the Cobra Jets could be driven but were not street legal, which is not a requirement for stock eliminator. Ford produced 50 plus cars, were available thru Ford dealers , were drivable at the time of purchase. It is hard to beleive that nobody complained about the rule for the oem's to produce 50 special units, even though it has been in the rule book since at least 1998.