Re: 2011 ahfs
 

The reason I chose to make the switch from bracket racing to SS in 1995 was three things. One to race with the quality of cars similar to mine, two the challenge of learning to make your car go faster all year long and three racing against the big names of the sport. I started at the bottom of the qualifying sheet...losing first round at a alot of races slowly learning and improving as I went along. That has slowly evolved into wanting to slow my car down at national events for the last few years as to not trigger the system to now slowing my car down at all the races I will be attending......kinda takes the fun out of it for me. When I talk to local guys from my area that bracket race and explain to them whats involved to make all this happen to attend these races they roll their eyes at me....tell me I'm crazy when they hear the return you get out of it.
I can put a bracket motor in my car..that will last 200 runs or more for half the price, trans with all steel parts for alot less money and go run high dollar bracket or foot brake races or run Atco saturday...head up the turnpike and run etown sunday.....and I would be saving tons of money and time off from work......these races are not a requirement of life...there are other choices and NHRA is slowly opening my eyes to them.

Ps...anyone see Jeff Hefler's bracket chevy II at pomona....gorgious bracket car....looks like he's having fun !!!!!!!!!!!

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Before I go jogging this morning, I reread in detail Mike's original post. Maybe Travis, etc can explain;

Is there a typo/decimal point error in the reduction? .1-.55 under count under review. .066 up and .04-.065 up couldn't happen with data ranging from .1-.55.

I copied and pasted it below, 1 last thought, maybe a 3.25% reduction spot to really spice things up.

So every run every where will be used for both adding and reducing..Not just national events, this is spot on especially for reductions.....Mark, this could be good for you!

And to truly give people incentive right now to be on the phone to Mark, etc, looking for parts, make the Reduction Requests rule changes effective right away and make the reductions happen like the additions do, effective on Tuesday.


SO:

The screenings will look for an overall engine family average less than 0.550-seconds under. Runs of 0.100-second under and slower are not included in calculating the engine average:

In addition, the combination must NOT make two runs of 0.650 or quicker for the review to continue or any run 0.850 or quicker.)

Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed is included in this screening.

If the engine family average is found to be slower than 0.550-second under, a change will be initiated.

To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock Eliminator for a 305 cubic-inch, 150 factory rated horsepower, carbureted Camaro during a review period:

A written request triggered a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, there were NOT 2 runs 0.650-second or quicker preventing a review or ANY run 0.850-second or quicker preventing a review. The overall engine average is analyzed next. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in I/SA and 8 in J/SA) with a total engine average of 0.535-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 0.550-second under, the combination proceeds with the evaluation.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower decrease:

Under Index
Horsepower Decrease
Index Change

0.066-quicker
1.25%
+.05

0.04-0.065
2.25%
+.10

Thanks

Eric

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Ed, just to make this perfectly clear, I don't put many racers into this catagory. If somebody chooses a tuff, thrashed out combo (or an obscure, bad combo) and tries to make it better through hard work and experimentation then my hat is off to him. There are too many people (not racers) that come into our sport, throw around a lot of money, try to "win at any cost and damn the rules", show up at the track with their lawyer and have the rules manipulated or changed to suit they're needs. They do damage to our sport, hang around for a few years, get bored and "buy a boat". The problem is, when they leave, the damage is done and the "real racers" are still here left having to deal with the damage.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Now aint that the truth , Billy your spot on, seen it many times myself.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

x2!

What some people seem to forget is that HP factors are representative of a car's true potential. WELLLL... guess what? If you hit the HP trigger, then you have shown that your combination makes more HP, and it SHOULD be factored appropriately! What's the point in having *any* HP factoring is someone is always going to say "You're punishing me for all my hard work!". I'm sorry, but there is no entitlement. Either your car is factored correctly or its not. If you surpass a certain threshold with all of your "hard work", then you've shown that it is not factored correctly. Just because you get hit with HP and have to carry more weight or run the next faster class does not mean you're being punished. Quite the contrary, it's an outstanding accomplishment. Just because you might get hit with HP doesn't mean you stop working. Add the weight or move to the next class, and keep working! It's all relative. There is no limit to what you can accomplish.

On a separate note, once again, I am shocked by the lack of discussion about reducing the number of classes, whether it be wider weight breaks, sticks n' autos, or what have you -- any of which would generate more heads-up racing (which working in concert with the AHFS would help bring combos into line much quicker). Any so-called "performance guy" against this should be embarrased that it takes a bracket racer to bring it up.

OR, we could just use the 15 years of data that have already been compiled, do simple run completion to make up for the 1000' dumpers, utilize McCarty's bell curve, reset ALL of the classes, indexes, and HP factors ONCE right now, and then everybody could run with no trigger for another 5 years! Bang, we're back to real racing, everybody can do "hard work" on their combination without fear, and everybody can race to the finish line without fear. Or does that make too much sense? :rolleyes:

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Waaaay too much sense, Michael.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I think the reality of the data which obviously NHRA does not have about the true state of these two eliminators might show a different picture. With over 15000 runs in Stock and over 11000 in Super Stock, the picture is somewhat different. That is for 2010. The new AHFS would have accelerated the newer cars, but a lot of older cars would get some adjustment also. I think more than most people would think. I don't have all of it in my computer at home, but there is a pattern of lots of older cars that steadily thrash all year that would get the semi annual adjustment where most of the adjustment for the newer cars is earned on instant adjustment. Anyone interested in their combo? Post what you run and I will look it up with all the juicy details, inenudo, and other things that make this exciting. Travis, I think there were 632 or so runs in Stock over 110 under. Lot's of adjustment there. You couldn't keep up. Yeah, maybe you could.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Michael, it would take more than a bell curve to do what you want. Maybe a 'Gong" curve.
As far as the heads up racing, you know I am 300% for that, but I'm telling you, most Stock and Super Stock racers are not ready for a lot of heads up. It's like sighting Santo Domingo from the deck of the Santa Maria. A new experience, and the Indians aren't always friendly. Look at SS/AH. Cost of doing that outran inflation by 2,676,438%, and most of the ultra fast can't run rounds any more.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Well said Michael..... (I was thinking the same thing... but you put it into words).

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Nice Michael, Common sense ! But dont think there is any out on the left coast.
Travis, I am sorry I left you off the list of people if put in a room could fix the mess. Please accept my apology.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

X 2 AND 3. Good post Michael. The fast guys want thier cake and eat it to !

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

two things I think would HELP this some. One would be that any instant hit pass be met with a teardown, two would be to compare an "instant hit" pass with an average of everyone with that combo's fastest passes ( we know Nitro Joe has this info) to see if the combo is really deserving of HP.

1) it would keep an illegal car from killing a combo.

2) it would prevent one maniac from killing an otherwise reasonable combo. My point here is that there are several cases where one person has a combo figured out well beyond any of his competitors. He is the anomaly, and should be awarded for the achievement, but the rest of the guys running the same combo shouldn't be penalized i.e. 427/425, Sorensen is killer fast, at least .10 faster than any other 425 I would say. But there are a slew of good, fast 425's that aren't even in the same realm as him. If you hit the whole combo, Sorensen is still .10 quicker than the other 425's, but they all get penalized with him. I am NOT suggesting penalizing on an individual basis, just suggesting that just because one guy has a combo flying doesn't necessarily mean the combo as a whole is soft.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Ha you beat me too it !
ITS Embbarrsing that it takes a Performance Bassed Racer to realize the Big picture now doesnt it. Or maybe a bracket racer also hmm idk. Good post
X2 X3 X4 X5 whatever......

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Exactly what I have said multiple times - the fast guys want to maintain their advantage and cry foul when the shoe is on the other foot. The new cars will be brought into line. There may need to be some lower weight breaks so they do not have to weigh 4000 lbs. There may be new classes. NHRA will take care of it - just not fast enough to suit most.

A simple solution for altitude tracks is to decrease the factors so that we can't run farther under at an altitude track than a sea level track. It does not take a rocket scientist to know they are to much. That's why guys tow 2000 miles to set records in Boise. This single change to the altitude track factors would eliminate most of the concern.

Come on guys - all of us know how to back our car down and know what it will run (bias tires, timing, oil, weight) do the work if you want to save your HP - like we have been doing it for years.


:-) peace

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

This is a performance based eliminator To many on here want to forget that.

I agree with number one.
But as far as number two goes if someone "legally" finds a way to go faster than the competition. There should be no reason to let the slower guys have a free ride.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

very good points Chad -

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Sorry Angelo. I read the first line, and skipped to the next post.This thread is going like a chat room hard to keep up

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Yea I know Kevin - we were not looking forward to it (and it never happened) but we would have iced, cooled, change the timing, tires, oil and valves to give him all we had. Anything could happen (hood blow off or something) it is drag racing.

Just like when I had to run another Challenger (6-Pak) years ago in the semi-finals at Pomona. Dave Schmidt's with Darrin Grossi driving - had us .4 (see the similarity). Did not have a forum to go on and complain about the soft combo then so we just took our lumps and went on..

Everything changes yet everything stays the same - weird


:-) peace

Now on to fantasy football

Play Peyton or not is the real burning question - I will worry about HP later today

LOL

:-)

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

my point is this, if one guy with a combo has everyone else covered, then HE is the standout, not the combo. If one combo has everyone else covered, then the COMBO is the standout. If you punish the whole group on one's actions then you are promoting mediocrity. I don't see it as the slower guys having a free ride as much as I see it as one guy either spends more, knows, more, or works more. That person earned an advantage ( with the spending more being questionable). Let's use a hypothetical situation here, you have combo A that has 20 guys actively running one. 3 of them are .25 under, 1 is 1.10 under, and the rest are a tight average around .8 under. Obviously the 3 slow cars need to fix their problems and get to work ( I occasionally fall in that category), the one guy flying needs to go through a good "TSA style" tech inspection, but do you really think the other 16 guys as a whole are getting a free ride?

I don't think this is unfair to the class. Sure you have a standout, but that standout gives everyone else a target to aim at and it doesn't discourage people from having a fast race car. If you said that the instant hit only applies if the combo has an average of -.xx that's all it would take to keep from killing a combination.

Remember that the AHFS is intended to keep the playing field level between combinations, not individuals.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Chad what would you do in my case? Where there are only 2 other cars in the world?
One problem is a lot of racers have "I have to run the same combo that everyone else does"
I agree with the complete full teardown before a instant hit.
The last time I ran fast enough to get an instant hit I was told I might as well take the record because I was getting checked anyway.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I understand your position, there is not another 69 427/435 running that I know of. I doubt we will ever be fast enough to trigger an instant hit in AA/SA with it, but if we did we affect no one but ourselves. In your case you would piss two others off. How close are you guys et wise if you don't mind me asking?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

One car is being built and the other is as fast or faster than me.
If the crybabies hadn't gotten Indy changed I could not have cared less about the index.
But now if I go out and get the index whacked by half a second at a mineshaft track. What happens at Indy with a density altitude of 3500 feet. Remember I run a 151 cubic inch motor that weighs 2600 pounds

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

your case is different because it affects your index, thus your ability to qualify for Indy. I do thin you getting whacked .50 in index is nuts, because its not affecting parity in your class at all, if anything it may discourage some guy from building a car for your class. All it will do is change your position on the ladder.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

If my index were to get hit .50 I doubt anyone in my class could even get in the eliminator at Indy.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

understood

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Let's address the A/SA & AA/SA indexes for a moment. The A index is 11.00 and the AA index is 10.60. Wouldn't it be much more fair to the older cars if the AA index was softened up to let's say 10.75? With the proposed AHFS, the blown cars basically get a free pass because there is no reason ever to go faster than a 9.61 but there isn't a carburetor car that can run that fast. We all know the blown cars can go much faster when and if needed.

Now, I put the weight in my car to run A/SA because there is no way I can run with a blown car. I can now go 9.90's so I now I must slow the car down just to make sure I do not hurt my combination. How can anyone say my car now needs hit with HP?

The AA index needs to be changed now.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Craig, a carb car has run that fast. But I agree on the index. A .75 would make a lot more sense. It's like a 200 lb. difference between A and AA for most of the higher rated cars. The difference is more like two-two and half tenths, not four.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Sean,

I stand corrected on the Camaro but you do see the absurdity of the AA/SA index and I appreciate that.

Craig

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Chad Rhodes - lots of good posts.

Okay. Then they should get horsepower. It's got nothing to do with old cars vs new cars. It's just numbers.


Mmm, no. And it doesn't have anything to do with what I "want". I don't have a "want". It's math. Do run completion on years of data so that we have a clear picture of what cars would've actually been running that were actively "protecting their index", and automatically adjust HP, up or down, based on analysis of those numbers and an arbitrary trigger. No "well, that should apply to Neons and not Camaros, or that should apply to Firebirds and not GTOs".... Numbers. Period. Faster than trigger, get HP. Slower than some min. trigger, get HP back. Factor EVERYBODY once now, then let everybody get back to racing for a good long while.

Alright, y'all gonna have to explain that one to me... Combining classes based on weight breaks as I proposed earlier in this thread wouldn't have people running heads-up every other round, just a little more often than they do now. Not to mention Class Eliminations would get REALLY cool! (and potentially, worth more than currently). Who is it that isn't ready for a handful of heads-up in a season, that may or may not happen? Bracket racers?

Different animal. You've got SS/AH guys that race like they're Pro Stockers (albeit cooler!), and you've got SS/AH guys (in your own stables) that can and do win "regular" races. You're always going to have both kinds.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I think a good idea would be to have at least a couple of races a year, maybe more, where stock and superstock can run just like comp eliminator, off index no breakout with a cic. And pre factor some of the cars that are way underfactored. This way the guys that want to strive to go faster can have a race to do it without the AHFS.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Good idea about races without AHFS. At least make record runs exempt from AHFS. What are records supposed to represent? The guy that can save index or HP or the guy that can go the fastest?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Kinda reminds me of PINKS All Out. In a best out of 3 final, one guy gets there first, but loses the round because he "ran too fast". I've heard they give these guys as much as .10 or .20 breakout to work with. If the guy makes one lap that's .20 quicker than what he got in the show with, and his opponent has *actually* been running his car all out the whole time... umm... isn't it kind of ridiculous to just DQ the one run that was .20 "too fast", and then line them up again thinking that the slower car has any real shot? The only challenge for the fast guy is figuring out how to cover his opponent just enough to hide his tremendous performance advantage (which had ALREADY been displayed!) .... Sound familiar? :rolleyes:

They have non-AHFS races... they're called S/SS Combos... (and if I understand things right, haven't "Altitude" races been this way, for all intents and purposes?)

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Races without any AHFS limits happen all the time. They are usually called Combo races. Several Stock/SS associations and local tracks put them on across the country all year long. Anyone wanting to put on an independent Stock or S/S race can step up and promote one anytime they want.

At LODRS events record runs are a part of qualifying. Qualifying falls under the guidelines of the AHFS. National Opens are not qualified fields yet records can be set. But is it right for a car that is not factored correctly to set the record representing a class? The AHFS is all about factoring cars correctly shown by on track performance once they have been accepted to race.

Travis Miller

(Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by me on this forum are exactly that, my opinions.)

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

I think the idea is more in line with the race Pat has in addition to the Sports Nationals, it appears that it is very popular among the class winners and a fun race. Absolutely nothing like "Pinks".

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

what if they did away with the instant trigger but did a review monthly, based on averages?

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Travis,
Quote:But is it right for a car that is not factored correctly to set the record representing a class?

If he is best of class and has worked hard to be fast, why not? Not all fast cars are improperly factored. Some get fast from hard work, testing and having the right suspension setup. Your answer assumes a fast car doesn't have the right factor.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

You really expect a lot of work from Glendora..............................:eek:

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

well it was purely academics discussion, i didn't actually THINK anyone in Glendora would put the effort into it

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

The truth is, other than tech, the AHFS should be a purely hands off automatic system. Honestly, they should just plug in a weather station and let it work with the computer they already have. An Excel spreadsheet based look up table could automatically do the weather adjustments for each run to sea level. Another Excel spreadsheet based look up table could handle the run averaging. Properly written, the programming should produce an adjustment report every Monday after the racing is finished for the weekend on Sunday.

After all, they call it the AUTOMATIC Horsepower Factoring system, that's what it should be. With the computer software and hardware available today, as well as the programmers, the fact that it isn't truly automatic (although it should have human review) and it doesn't work well is a testament to how far things are off.

Re: 2011 ahfs
 

Maybe I don't understand this. Go easy, I'm just an old dumb Okie, but if one guy who works real hard is really fast, hits the review trigger, but nobody else runs far enough under to get the average down, there is no factor change. Right? Doesn't the engine's average have to also be fast for a hit?

Evidently I don't understand it, since everybody is so unhappy.