Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

At the time I was working at GK was rejuvinating my friendship with Ralph Truppi after being re-introduced to Ralph by Bill Jenkins, after spending a few years on active duty in the US Navy. My acquaintance with Ralph Truppi and Tommy Kling began in 1964 when I was the driver of Ted Hartman's "Bad Banana" F/S ('57 9 pass. wagon/ 283 hp) record holder and they, with Ray Allen as driver, ran in the same class, with a 348" Chevy. The later built the "Terrible Tangerine" with the same combination 9 pass wagon/283hp).
My friendship with Ralph grew steadily over the years because of a mutual respect.; and I was deeply saddened a couple of years ago by his passing. He became a true "best friend".
As far as the Briggs Chevy is concerned, I believe they used a relatively mild cmashaft, by GK standards, that had been designed as a small block cam profile for 1.5 rockers. The 1.7 rockers on the Big Block, however, turned it into a very good combo. It was a 309/318 grind, can't remember the lobe center, but I think 110. I know the car was quite heavy but I don't believe they went through any deceptive measures to illegally **** weight around - that wasn't Ralph's or Tommy's style. At the time they were into cylinder wall finishes, ring combinations, etc. There was a time when they were into very smooth (polished) cylinders with chrome stainless .043 rings, moved higher on the piston, and low tension second and oil rings. At the time that was pretty innovative and it no doubt found its way into the Chevelle motor. They eventually went away from the smooth finish and more in to .043 dyke type top rings - still high on the piston. Hoffman Machine would fill in the original top ring groove, because back in those days they would use the TRW replacement pistons.

They felt that Chrysler really wanted a car in their class to dethrone the Chevelle; and the car that, I believe, was built particular for that purpose, was the Fink Brothers car.
I hope I have given you some info, but I will probably remember more later.
Dave Colbert
P.S. I am planning to try to reprint that GK catalog from 1972 because it has hundreds of pictures of cars from that era that were GK users (just about everyone back then) for every make and class except the top fuel cars. I think the folks on this site might be interested.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Dave 'Bad Banana',

The big thing back then,,,,was the Sunnen CK-10 Power-Stroke
Cylinder Hone,,,,,,,,,that unit could really get that fine finish,,,,and
proper cross-hatch,,,,,,
Every Top Machine Shop had to get one,,,,,,,,that was the #1 piece of machine shop engine rebuilding equipment for the performance shops during those times,,,,
That CK-10,,,,,,,a beautiful piece of machinery...

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Yes a CK-10 was state of the art back then but you forgot one very important part....

The man doing the honing......Honing is right up there with other very specialized skills......I honed many many sets of rods and worked my butt off to make them straight and round....

I worked in a shop that did a great deal of machine work for Ralph at T/K's

The owner was named Bill Crowley at Crows Head Shop here in northern NJ.....If he honed your block you could be assured it was right and Ralph often called up after an engine that had just been dyno'ed with a fresh hone made more power than ever before.....

By then the super smooth cylinder wall finishing idea was long gone.....

Bill was fanatical about blocks and had a little technique for the final finish that seemed to always work.....

He was also a super talented head machinist and long befoe there was a Serdi or similar type machine his VJ's were just about perfect....

He also was a very skilled head and manifold porter.....and did some intakes that were not topped for many years....
He went to Nascar country......along with many others in the engine business......

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

John Hoffman never had a Ck-10, he used a big ice tub and honed by hand and his stuff was fast.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

The man doing the honing was everything with the old Sunnen rod machines, it's an art all by itself, my hands still hurt just thinking about it.
When I worked with Ritchie Zul in the mid 70s he was still using the mirror finish cylinder walls on the Pro Stock motors he built for a few customers, I did all the block prep and boring but Nassau Hone did the honing.. My ears are still ringing from the dyno pulls.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I remember Crow's Head Shop and Bill very well. He did my blocks for my SS/EA '69 Camaro; also some head work under the valve and intake manifold work. His shop was special. The thing about Truppi Kling is that they didn't do any machine work, but rather sent each part to the people he found could do the very best work on a particular part; and then told them exactly what HE wanted. Later when the head rule opened up he used Brandwine head Service a lot.
I used to let Ralph send my blocks, heads and manifold to Crow's; Got my crank work done at RC Automotivr in Alex., VA and then go up to T-K to assemble, dyno and tune the motor there before taking it home. In those days we only had stock blocks so we had them all checked for wall thickness, especially on the thrust side of the bore (at least .100) and hardness checked. Good (thick) but soft blocks may have gotten the chrome stainless rings and hard blocks the moly rings. I had a time convincing Ralph that I wanted to use cast cranks. Of course we needed to have them "magged " to find a good one; but they were lighter and while they made no more power on the dyno at a given rpm, I always felt the motor was able to accelerate through the rpms faster.- and hit the converter harder.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Thats a name I haven't heard about in awhile. I spent a week at Roy's shop in 1990. Roy brought a seri 100 and I had to set it up and get it working.

LOL, Roy sure like to drink and talk.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Jenkins, never had a CK-10.
Tryson would finish the blocks in a home made "honing tank"

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Tryson used a Sunnen HAND hone. I have the same model and have used it a lot. You can controll the cross hatch pattern and speed better with one.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I know Roy well....He likes to drink more than talk......LOL. Great machinist.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I believe that is correct about both Hoffman and Tryson at Jenkins' shop - no CK10. Extreme care however to get the cylinders so that they would be as round as possible after assembly.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Sunnen CK-10,
What I should have stated,,,,,,,it made things a little easier,,,,,
than honing with a hand-held Craftsman drill,,,,especially on regular engine rebuilds.
And if the wrong machinist was operating the CK-10,,,,,,,,tapered cylinder walls,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:eek:

We followed the old rule,,,,,,,,if we were going .040 over,,,,,,,,
Bore the cylinder with a Rottler boring bar .034 over to get a proper
'square cylinder'......
and the final .006 were honed,,,,,,,,,
and don't forget the B-H-J block plate,,,,,,,,,
I think we used #AN-400 or AN-500 stones for the Sunnen Hone,,,,,
Extra-fine finish 400 grit,,,,or the 'N' series stones

Before the Sunnen CK-10, my father like many machinists,,,,,,used the old school
Sunnen portable honing stand,,,,,a Craftsman drill and the Sunnen AN-111 portable
hone,,,,,,,,,,,,,a nice finish and beautiful cross-hatch,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but what a mess with
that Sunnen Honing Oil,,,,,,,,oil soak-filled pants, shirt and shoes,,,,,,GEEZ

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

That honing stand kept you from hitting the main caps and chipping the honing stones......X's 2 on the mess.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Mr. X,,,,,

On hitting the main cap or block web,,,,,,,,,,,,,sometimes you still hit
those 'bastards',,,,,,,,,,man, my father would scream,,,,,,,
and them stones weren't cheap,,,,,,,,,

When the CK-10 first came out, the Sunnen Rep (Frank Stiemstress, sic) sold them like crazy,,,,,,,,,,
About $8000 for one, back in the early 70's.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Heh Heh yeah Ive chipped a few in my day to. In fact I still have my hone.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Back To Jack Werst and the 70' Superbird,,

Information from a Jack Werst article,,
1) The Superbird was an original 4-speed Hemi car.

2) In August 1970, the car underwent a 4-week preperation, to get ready to compete at the 70' Indy Nationals. It's primary goal, to specifically go after Ray Allen in the SS/EA class, and hopefully knock him out, so the other Mopar Super/Stockers would have an easier road to go in
S/S Eliminator.

3) According to the article, the Hemi engine installed in the Superbird
was a 'bit' bigger than stock. But an exact displacement was not
mentioned.

4) Modifications included;
*) a set back engine
*) JR Headers, w/special bends, required as the engine was set back)
*) wheels re-positioned
*) a 300 lb. tail wing
*) a 'super heavy' back window (1/2" thickness, double-glass)
*) lightened nose-piece (.018" thickness, 60% lighter than the standard nose-piece)
*) light sheet metal hood (.018" thickness, 60% lighter than the standard hood)
*) 'chemically engineered' doors and fenders (acid dipped)

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Terry,
A quick story on, Roy.
When I worked for Seri, Me and another guy would go in and set up the machines that the salesmen sold.

I called, Roy and told him I would be there on a monday. Roy, ask me how I was going to get to his place. I told him I would fly into Dulles and take a taxi to his place. Roy told me no way. I said what do you mean? Roy said fly into Dullas and take the blueline train to addison road. When you get there call me.

So I did. Roy came and picked me up and I spent one of the best weeks of my life with a good guy.


Roy, took me back to the motel every night as well as picking me up every morning. I lost contact with Roy and haven't spoken to him since 2001 or 2002.

Roy, told me lot of stories about drag racing and nhra in the 60's. He also had a few good Jenkins,stories from being a tech inspecter.

I think, Roy even built a few billet cranks for, Jenkins V-6 comp motors.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Thats how I did it. I couldn't wait to use my new rottler F2B. I was used to using a kwik-way deck mounted boring bar.
After about 2 years of using my rottler I went back to my kwik-way.

With the kwik-way I would square up the decks on a storm85B mill with the BHJ tooling and then mount the kwik-way on the deck and bore the clyinders

In 1997 I brought a RMC1000 boring mill and never looked back. Jenkins helped me make that choice.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Yes he is a great guy. I bought a new K.O. Lee seat and guide machine thru him in the late 1980's. He got me the good tooling for Hi performance work and Harley work. Had a few cranks done by him for my car and a few others. Its been maybe 19-20 years since I had talked to him. Heard a lot of cool stories from the 60's. Most of the guys used his shop then as there wasnt any other or better one around in the 60;s.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

X Tech Man: Where is Lake Placid, FL?
I just moved up to Wake forest, NC from The Villages, FL. going back for a visit the second half of Oct.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Approx 3 hours south of the Villages. Im 10 miles or so from Sebring Race Track. I remember you when you raced S/S. I used to prep the heads and crew for Jim Morgan and Dikie Estivez on their 428 CJ's back in the 70's.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I did most everything at Crow's for over 10 years.......

Hot tank loader and unloader and rinser...Just rinsed the parts off in the driveway with a pressure hose and hot water from a coil that ran thru the hot tank....Brown water ran downhill...Not to cool in todays world.....can you say DEP or EPA

Glass beader.....Did every cylinder head unitll it was spotless.....

I did most of the headwork.....everything but the VJ on race car stuff( Bill did them all), and tons of VJ's on roadcar stuff.....

I CC'ed and milled all the heads including everything for T/K's....That included some LS-6 SS heads.....


I bored blocks on a table we had and used a Kwik Way FN bar......Counterboring was a PITA and I f'ed up a block or two be retracting the bar in the wrong position......Actually happened once when I went to answer the phone and I think it was Ralph....Hit retract and never rotated the bar to the right spot......It was MY BLOCK and it put a nasty stripe in it but I ran it anyway..Hey is was just a 454 for S/G and brackets......

I ran the Storm Vulcan 85-B Block Master........Often had the mill running and was boring a block at the same time.....

Did pistons......rods by the ton.....Assembled almost all the heads and the list goes on and on........

We had a Go-Power Dyno....and a Dyno session usually was very eventfull.....

Those dynos were far from a modern day unit and it was time consuming and often we had "issues" develop during the testing.....

We did dyno quite few engines.......and at one time the current head of Toyota Racing in America......Lee White......used our dyno to test the engines he built for the team he managed locally.... A 924 Turbo Porsche Trans Am Team......Pretty wild little engines....Well over 500hp at about 130 cubes and the sound was deafening if you were anywhwere near the dyno when he tortured it....

I loved my days in that machine shop for the most part.........It's a shame so many small shops shut down......

I could go on and on about that but lets just say times change.....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

K-Machine,

That Kwik-Way Model #FN portable boring bar was another good unit.
My father bought his new in 1971, for $1900.

Then later the Rotler.
If the block deck was square, that FN bar made a nice bore when using the low-speed, and of course a sharpened bit.
I still remember the hold down device, with the '3' thrumb screws,,,,,,
it loosened up on me a few times,,,,,,,:eek:.

Kwik-Way,,,,made very good valve grinding equipment too,,,,,

Rich Biebel,,,,,,,,,,you guys must have bought your Kwik-Way equipment off of
Lacey Williams also,,,,,,,,
pc

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Jack Werst,,,

According to Jack,,,,,,,after the Superbird was 'specially treated', it was taken to ATCO (south New Jersey) for testing,,,and ran sub-11.00's,,,,,,well below the 11.51 SS/EA National Record.

It set a track record at ATCO, but what class was not mentioned.
If it was SS/EA, it was not in a 'legal car', as Jack had stated it was
'specially tricked up'.

The photo of the car at ATCO does prove that it was there.

A week later it was brought to Indianapolis.

When the car got to Indy for the 70' Nationals, Jack did state that the word was out,,,,,,,,,and that the Tech Inspectors for the NHRA gave him a terrible time during tech,,,,,,,but the car did pass, and was entered into SS/EA.

pc

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Yes we did buy from Lacey Williams.....

We did buy a VJ machine form Charlie Cockey......The guy was relentless and hammered us to buy the machine.....

I did a lot of heads with it.....Neway.....damn thing worked great and when I did heads for Ralph at T/K's he loved it....Chrome seats he called them.....

I used a stone for a top cut as the Neway carbide cutter blades were not radiused and left a sharp edge....

I bought out a guys small machine shop from Pa. after I left Crows.....

I still have some of the stuff including all the KwikWay seat grinding equipment......

I did a lot of engine and heads at home for many years....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Here's another T/K customer.
http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/47...600x600Q85.jpg

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Sound like you guys had a great time in those days.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Rich B.

Charlie Cockey,,,,,a smooth talker,,,,,he was from Maryland.

The NEWAY carbide cutter set-up,,,,,,,,,about $1800 or so for the kit,,,,
worked great for the foreign head soft seats too,,,,,,

Charlie Cockey, one pressure salesman,,,,,,,,,his commision base for
NEWAY was 50%,,,,,,,,,,$900 per unit,,,,,,,,not too bad for those
early-to-mid 1980's salesman,,,,,,
My father threw him out,,,,,,,,but still bought one anyway,,,,,
They did serve a purpose,,,,,,

Sounds like Jack Vogel may have been to your shop too,,,,,
he was the rep for Winona, Storm-Vulcan, Rottler and Tobin-Arp,
Goodsen, K-Line and few other companies,,,,,,

Winona FG-5000 Flywheel Grinder,,,,,,,,,,,,,another great money maker
for the shop,,,,,,,:)

pc

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Tom,

According to Jack,,,,,,,,,he purposely lost in the 3rd round,,,,,,,
to avoid reaching the SS/EA Class Final.

As per Jack,,,,,,,,,Ray Allen had lost earlier, so there was no need to
continue,,,,,,,,,,and they never met..

1970 Indy Photo,,,,,,,,:confused:
http://www.colesy-juniorstockforum.c...ile.php?id=263

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Is Weston Machine of Piscataway NJ still "THE" shop for block prep?

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Yes. The MichaelAngelo of cast iron, lol!

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Charlie is still there and really a great guy to talk to...Last time I was there he back cut some rings for me and we sat and talked about the old days for a while...He has a good memory cause he remebered an incident both our places had with Ralph from T/K's. We both did some machine work apprently on the same block and something somewhere went wrong and Ralph was not happy......and if he was not happy you heard about it....and we all got an earfull on that one.....

The place Weston is in now and for the last 25+ years was T/K's shop when they built the Chevelle.......

Charlie worked for John Hoffman I believe at one time.......

He has a CNC block machine and he told me he spent more on that machine and the tooling for it than he had spent on all the other machines he has and that was over 25 years worth! His place is packed with machines......

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

The Neway seat cutter had one bad feature.....the cast iron chips that were made from cutting seats piled up and blocked your view of the seat and top cuts......So your natural reaction is to blow the chips away.....Even with S-G's (safety glasses) you often get one in an eye.......Lets see freshly cut cast iron and moisture.....and your eyes propensity for capturing foreign objects........Lets just say I visited the eye doctor a few times and at least one was real unpleasant.......

I wear better protection these days (Plastic goggles) when I have to roll around under a vehicle at work just to avoid the eye doctor visits....

The Neway was priced right about what you stated...and I figured that guy Charlie sold every machine shop he could find one.

The Serdi guys did not have that kind of success......the price for one of those was off the scale.....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I remember the shop that Ralph, Tommy and Jerry were in in Piscataway (spelling?) before they moved up on rte 22 .........was it rte.22? can't remember the number now but I remember the place.

One thing about Ralph and the Chevelle that hasn't been said. One of Ralph's great abilities, and something he very much enjoyed, was researching classes and what best fits where. He knew that the hp rating for the Chevelle was NOT the best in relation to the hp it could make in SS trim - it wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. The thing about it was that there wasn't much, at the time, that was good in the class; and it took that body and that higher compression engine to favorably make the class. He knew, for example that the 425 hp 454 was a better motor in relation to what it would make but they wanted to run that particular class.
I'm not sure about this but I think there was at least a question of whether or not the street Hemi was ever really available in a convertible from your local dealer. Of course when Chrysler wanted to go after the Chevelle, they made sure it was available. At the time they built the Chevelle I don't think there were any Hemi convertibles running in the class.

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Yes, it was route 22 in Greenbrook. I was never at their shop when they were in Piscataway where Weston is Currently. Never knew they were there until this thread...

Hoffmans old shop is still standing, actually vacant and up for sale. They painted the building a few years back and I wish I took a picture before they took the name off the door. I'd rather remember it the way it was.

And Richie, Where you ever at Westons shop when he was in Edison on Talmage rd? Now that was wall to wall machines. Very small shop,but top notch work, even back then, lol!

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

I recall reading somewhere that Weston does block prep for some of the Pro Stock NASCAR teams .
Can anyone verify that?

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Best I can recall I was only at Charlie's shop in Piscataway.......and yes it is where T/K was when they had the Chevelle......We installed out engine in our '68 Chevy II H/S 'er there in 1970.

I was at Hoffmans at least once but don;t recall where that was.

I was always told Hoffman owned some of the T/K buildings....Maybe owned the Piscatawy shop.....Maybe the shop on Rt 22......Don't really know...

Ralph was in a Sunoco gas station on Rt 22 east the first time I visited him.
I was wanting to build a '58 Pontiac Stocker and Ralph may have already had some experience with those cars......It's tough to recall details from that long ago......

I did like and respect Ralph very much.....He did love to pour thru the NHRA books looking for good combos to run and he is directly responsible for so many of the cars that were built back then.....It was all him.....He could be tough to deal with but I am sure it is because of his very high intellegence and lack of patience for excuses or poor performance.....He was a very talented man and the records his engines set prove it....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

Frank I don;t know about today but that was true some years back. Charlie ahd a Jumbo sized Bridgeport type mill and it could accomodate any block.

The CNC machine he bought was able to do many block operations....

He did lightening and lifter bore machining as well as other machine operations for various blocks......I think he also was doing the LS type aluminum blocks. Sleeves for bigger bores and that from what I know is a fairly complicated deal to do properly...and not cheap....

Re: Ray Allen versus Jack Werst '1970 SS/EA Showdown'
 

N.Y. Times story of T-K

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...et/#more-28567

Went to Truppi in 76 and had him build us a 325-396, took it to the winternationals,
spun a cam bearing while testing at IRwindale, call with the cam #and found out Clauide put the wrong cam in.