Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

John, I agree. The original idea was "simple, Cheap, entry level". A new class with many open modifications wont help. Sealed motor may be too simple, or basic for current racers but if getting new racers in SS, younger participants etc. got to be limited....

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I should have been more clear...
When I was referring to SS/CS, I should have said an approved cast iron head, However, like I expressed before, no external oil pumps, no crank trigger, no aluminum rods, no sheet metal intake and a single class with a specific pound to weight ratio.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

OK, to address everyone so far. I don't expect to get my way on very many of these ideas. Let's put that out there first. Also, probably nothing will come of this, let's keep that in mind. And, the guy who won the $100 for quickest light at our track most of the time was Jerry Michaelis, with a 69 camaro, slapper bars, a 2 speed powerglide built by a local transmission guy for $500 dollars. So that pro car argument doesn't fly with me. I averaged between a .419, and a .439 out of six passes with an F bodied SS\CS car one night out of seven rounds. Most weekends I was between .460's and .420's. And we did not have the new LED lights. I think the drivers reaction should come into play. I realise I won't get my way, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Now, for national events, sure, Dick, the chassis should be relative to what's there already Dick may have unknowingly brought a possibility to this class coming to life. Start it as a superstock class, and see how it's receieved. And let people know, if enough interest, would be a class . But give them a realistic index, like they do for 300 other classes. I don't think that would be a bad idea. That would let them run. Also, that idea of no. 16 getting no. 1's heads, and so on, good idea. That would keep us all honest.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Dead on. If the car is not a stick, no one is interested in watching.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Randy , no I did realize the benefit of being a SS class. My comment was instead of asking NHRA for a class to run,(which is doubtful without first proving the concept) create cars to FIT a current class. THey might not be 1. under cars or .7 but if I want to run an NHRA points meet I could use the class index like everyone else and pray for no heads up with the all out car for the original class. Then if guys start moving into the class in numbers local tracks could feature them, we could ask for a heads up series IN THE POINTS meet down time. Then work towards NHRA acceptance of the GOALS and Class function to get new racers.
Mloboda- My daughters Trans brake 305 SS car will stand with the best of them IF I WANTED IT TO. We tied it down to Race it...

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I'm game for anything Dick. I'm not sold my ideas are the only ones. You have some good points. The reason I keep beating the brodix spec deal, is because they're cheaper, available, and proven. I think the $500 head exchange rule should be enforced, and it truly would take care of itself. Eliminate titanium valves, if racers want. I've turned 9600 on steel valves. Just to keep costs down. And run them in such as SS\CS, or similar. Works for me.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

To me SS/CS could be the perfect place What do you think they would run? Would they be under the index so they could race Points meets?Brodix heads would help make ALL three brands the same and everyone could run their favorite. Pan access holes? Stock Crank rods, What rocker system did you suggest? Any Intake and which carb 750 Anything?Solid cam or rollers?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I suggest solid roller cam, because in the long run, are less cost. 750 legal carb, cast available to the public intake, no external work, steel, or aluminum rods, cost would be the same, any stroke to avoid teardowns, angle milling, and polishing combustion chamber, any valve job not to go lower then manufacturers cnc cut, no crank trigger, vac pump, or external oil pump, stock type pump only, no billet, maximum 2 inch carb spacer, no rubber spacers, plastic or aluminum only, no computers, or hook ups for computers, single disc clutch, min. 10 inch, no titanium drive line parts, or carbon fiber brakes, carbon fiber limited to the drive shaft, min. cubes, 286, because of the 3000 lb. weight min. in SS\CS, stud mounted rockers only, with the exception of mopar, I like 5 forward gears, because or the action, EVERY gear, clutch must be used Think of the cam companys that would get involved with that. I think with flat tops, we could see ten 0's maybe. Let me know what you think. You will be hard pressed to get 10 to 1 out of the brodix head, believe me. All could be checked with a snap-on scope, and the head exchange will eliminate any exotic work. Let me know what you think.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

We could go so far as no knife edging on the crank, stock lifter size, stock cam diameter, and stock firing order, and steel pans only. All could be checked with an access hole in the pan.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Only Stick? Auto with Brake? No handicap? Line loc okay.what did they cost?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

No, automatics are ok with me, but you would absolutely have to give the 2 speed a weight brake. Not so concerned with the 3 speed high dollar autos, but in this situation, a 2 speed will be at a disadvantage to a clutch. Line locs fine with me.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

PG cars got 100 lb lighter car in Modified before didnt they? or was it more?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

This is the way the current rules read:

WEIGHT
Cars with fully automatic transmissions with converter may remove
up to 5 percent or 250 pounds, whichever is less, from regular class
weight; may be under posted minimum weight. Cars weighed with
driver; minimum weight includes driver.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

But I think that's rated against a clutchless now, am I right?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

With all the support here and good ideas they are varied levels of motor cost and complexity. Should a poll be taken of most important factors for the cars? Cost, simplicity by sealing them, claimer heads ok, etc?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Dick, my vote has got to be claimer heads, with a $500 exchange. It's simple, and logical. Also, it doesn't take hard work out of the equation. Sealed, or claimer motors destroys all that. Also, heads is what keeps most out of comp. They change designs seems like weekly. Also, I think it's important to keep the visual performance parts to a minimal, as we've discussed. I think a spec tire, fuel, and possibly rear gear, as long as it's entertaining. I love the fact that brodix evened up the competition, to where no one can bitch. Also, things I've brought up would keep valve train cost affordable.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Just like Randy said, let's start with a Spec cylinder head:

http://www.brodix.com/heads/spec.php

Then: no Titanium valves, no external oil pump, no sheet metal intake only cast intake, one single 750 CFM carb, no crank trigger, no external vacuum pump, any compression, limit tire width to 11.5", 358 CID max engine. Must maintain OEM cylinder bore spacing, OEM engine deck height and engine block must have a OEM part number.

I think this would maintain an even competition and keep costs down for the class.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I agree, but that would put cars in SS\AS. I have no problem with any of this, but I'm only one person.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Also, the OEM part number thing, probably would add cost to the engine. The SHP stuff from dart is cheaper. I'm so glad someone agrees on the brodix spec deal. Let's face it, they've had lots of years to work it out. And you know they would be on board big time.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Excellent ideas.

I don't think giving weight breaks for automatics would be in the best interest of the class. I understand you need participation but the thing that would make a class like this unique-and popular-would be higher rpms and manual transmissions.

At our local tracks the only time a significant number of fans show up is for Pro Mod shows or when the Classic Gearjammers are in town.

I think a 50 lb weight reduction for pre 1973 cars would benfit the class as well.

I really doubt the NHRA would have any interest in such a class-look at how long it took them to bring Pro Mod into the program and they still treat those guys/girls like second rate citizens.

A class like this would certainly have to start at the grass roots level, and that won't be easy. If some people really want to do something like this I'm willing to help in any way possible-I'm in South East NC. I've got one car that could fit this bill, just tell me the rules before it gets to the chassis shop this winter.

And I gotta say I am very suprised Doyle Evans hasn't posted in this thread yet. I know he's reading it and has a '67 Vette just itching for a class like this :)
I

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Also, on the crank, could limit it to 2 inch rod journal, with a max, .060 undersize. And ring widths, say 1\16, 1\16 3\16. But all of this would require tear down, and that's what I want to avoid. Just some thoughts.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I think a weight break for older model cars is way over due. I love clutch cars, but I'm trying to get interest. I think getting brodix, and say, Drag Illustrated pushing this would help.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

OK, I've read almost all of this, sounds very interesting. Would it work in this day and age? It's not 1977 any longer. Yes, it would need to be a grass roots level class. Tod and I have a car that would be a good candidate for this. Our 79 Firebird crate project. It's far from completed.

What kind of hybrid are we seeking here? Stocker type suspensions with "spec type" engines? Super Stock style suspension with same? Converted bracket cars, that really opens a can of worms.

Just a thought, come up with a basic set of "rules" as a guide. Make it a Class Racer stickey? Then we can bench race and tweak them?

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

That ain't gonna fly, that ain't gonna fly
No it didn't work then, and it dont work now
But do or die, I'm gonna try
To enjoy the ride, all the way down
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscart.../tmcn1451l.jpg

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Mike,

You are spot on! I've read every post.

Bad back, bad knees and everything else. I'd love to go back to a stick. If someone can pull this off - I will travel . I think the fans would love it as much as us racers.

Doyle

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

It'll never happen. Makes too much sense, and entirely too entertaining, and fun.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I would like to hear what Mike Keener
thought about this thread.

He was one of the best when it came
to modified racing.


Hammer

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

So, what are we talking here.

Are these cars going to required to have full roll cages?

9.0-9.50 lbs - cubic in, max 366

750 cfm carb - whats the FI equivalent? It's a new world, the younger FI guys need to be included?

10.5 tire

stock or "stock type" suspension, minor inboard movement of the rear suspension for tire clearence, no FWD conversions

$500 claim for cylinder heads-let us run whatever head you want, no porting or polishing, welding, port plates, ect, my point, you blow everybody away, if I'm there, your heads are going home with me

Shortblock-stock or steel rods, any compression,stock oiling system, no externals, dry sumps, ect

allow 150lb weight break for automatics-only reason I say this, much as we would all like to see a stick only class, there are more autos out there

Just a few random thoughts on Sunday. I'm off to the track.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

This much I can tell you from having lived and breathed Super Modified in the beginning and I am sure FJ and Mike will back this up it was not cheap then and hard to police with the rules then. With all the rules everybody wants do you really think NHRA will support this. When Voeglin proposed the first rules in 1974 it was to be a Heads up Elminator just like the first CarCraft Econo Dragster rules around 1971 or 1972!

Just survey Voeglin Daniels FJ Houser Stevens Ed Wright Fadely
Keener and Merc only ran SM a short time in 75 They were the Kings of D/MP C/MP and E/MP

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Super mod was a great class, I'm sure. It was, and still could be very entertaining. But, it didn't have a $500 cylinder head exchange-claimer. That would surely keep the cost down. I'm like the one guy, you dominate, there will be a fight fight those heads. We have to be realistic, and let existing back-halfed cars in. The claimer head rule, is far better then the claim the whole engine rule, or sealed motors.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

The heads were very simple then
Only ported 1 inch down from seat
1/4 inch intake port match
Any chamber mods except welding
Stock valve stem dia
Cast intakes no external mods not even painting
Carb not mods only removing choke blade
Roll cage could not go forward of firewall

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

The Brodix spec head is cnc'd 1\2 in. or more into the intake port from the factory. The exhaust is untouched. Most cars already have the roll cage in front of the firewall.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Some food for thought with the 150 lb weight break for autos-

Randy has suggested making the driver use the clutch pedal to shift gears in the man trans (and I think it is a good idea) and only allowing a single disk clutch. Imo a good liteweight 3 speed automatic could probably run as fast as the clutch car in that set up, probably quicker in the eigth mile without the weight break....and I would expect , at least in the beginning, some of these races will be held at eigth mile only venues.

Also, the people that choose to run the automatic will probably have 2 complete liteweight trans @ $4000 each and a pile of converters at $800 each.....the investment will be too high for many people to make the switch to a manual trans, and if an auto trans and converter company ends up sponsoring the class well......

Maybe 50 lbs reduction for a glide would be a good start. But I think the focus should be on making the class unique- drivers using the clutch pedal, and higher rpm small blocks.

Automatics can race anywhere, anytime. Make the Super Modifieds a unique place for manual trans cars.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I think the class would work very well today. Heads up drag racing is alive and okay-look at the ADRL, the 10.5 stuff, drag radial 275, and all of the Pro Modified associations and events. But consider this-

When the 'fast street car' stuff really got legs in the mid 1990's the main attractions were 'heads up racing' and almost anyone could fford to do it.

10 years ago, at least in the south east, the 'automatic/powerglide Pro Mods' caught on big. Most of these cars were Top Sportsman cars, they were a notch or two below the pro Mod cars.

IMO this series caught on largely because the powerglide could only handle so much power-it made fast heads up racing affordable for lots of people. The glide was the buffer so the budget guy could race with the big money guy.

Fast forward to about 3 years ago- Lenco and others started building powerglide parts that will take 3000 plus HP, and the fields have gotten smaller around here-because now the 80K engines can be used and not many folks can really afford that-or the maintenence that comes with throwing the kitchen sink into the mix.

The 'Fast Street Car' thing is still pretty strong, but not many people can afford to do it now compared to 10 years ago. A high school friend of mine got into the street car thing-10.5 outlaw-in the beginning. He had a very modest budget and even built the car (his first) himself. Now he can't even qualify and told me how he walked into a competitors trailer a few years ago and the guy had 3 600 inch Fords in the trailer and one on the car.

The thing about this Super Modified deal is that with some strategic rules in place the class could be affordable for a lot of people. Put it in the hands of the drivers and the tuners, not the mega bucks guy. The $500 head claimer thing will keep things from getting out of control better than probably anything else imo.

As for the suspension set ups-

Someone, I think SSDIV6, mentioned that the HP for a 358 with the Brodix spec head without all the dry sump/crank trigger etc stuff would probably make around 650 HP, a stock type suspension can handle that. Look at Anthony B's black '69 AA/SA 427 Camaro with slapper bars, for ex.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

I agree a stock suspension today can handle 650 HP. I don't think that alone is enough cars to bring in a full field. I do know the $500 spec head exchange is a start, but I have a ladder bar 67, that LA Automotive built for me, and others probably have 4 link cars they want in the mix. No one will build a car for this specific non-existent class, so we have to incorporate ideas to let enough in to start. Maybe a 50lb. or 100 lb. for completeley stock chassis with slapper bars. Come on guys, ideas please. And some of you have great ideas now, but we all need to face the fact we will never all, agree with all. I do know more people lined up locally against the fence to see low 7 second, and high 5 second runs here then pro mods drew at other local tracks. That's 1\8th mind you.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

And also, we could incorporate a draw from the hat each day to see who gets P&G'd. And after the finals, from the runner up on down to the non qualifiers, all numbers go in a hat, and the winner draws a car number out, and that's who exchanges heads. Just a thought. That way the guy that wins always exchanges, but any one on down can still post, and claim another racer's heads. What say you.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Where is this going to run?
Local
NHRA
IHRA
Points meets

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Run wherever, and whenever anyone gets behind it enough to have some pull. Will it happen? Probably not, but it's sure fun discussing.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

Snorkel scoops only, might be a good addition.

Re: Bring back super/mod...
 

OK, I've heard enough about Brodix heads, do they make them for all motors, Mopar, Amc, Ford,etc.?

Absolutely NO auto's; 4 speeds only, cast heads, alum. intake, holley or equivilant 750cfm, any compression, 750 lift cam max, aftermarket steel rods, roller rockers, stainless stock size valves (uniform throughout models), Caltrac's or slapper bars with custom leaf springs and either 9" or 10" w tires.

No FI, no 4 links or ladders and cars should be 1963 to 1969 (Corvettes up to 1969 can be used).

Please note: this is not an idea for introducing drag racing to 18 yo's, it's a renewal of a great class that was fun to watch, hear, and race.

That's my bias opinion.

JimR