Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Spyfish, you are one very funny dude!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Ok Stephen, all jokes aside. Name the rules. How's this sound?

Obviously with whatever you call legal heads I can't compete to win the race assuming some new heads will show up to steal the show.

How about your $10,000 to the quickest guy with your rules and pass full teardown?

Name the rules and be specific. You can't just say old rules because obviously everyone has a different take on it.

Maybe this will motivate some cars to come out.

Rules:
?????

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Here we go again, you just came out of the Obama cabinet meeting? Go to top of page two and READ KKFC rules. Don't spin doctor them to what YOU want ie:Barton-ism. But since you bothered me again, I am borrowing Tuetons body templates and I will have my original unmolested LO23 Dart with me for reference if need be. The addendum is : body will be checked as well since you seem to be unable to figure out the scoop rule.

PS Bring all your scoops, you could become Twenty Scoop Dave


David, all jokes aside. You guys build and sell motors. YOU should be putting the money up and run your new NHRA rules. Mine are just that, the old rules plain and simple.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

:cool:Like sands through the hour glass.........

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

deleated by SS/AH racer

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Well, look who is backing down now:) I was counting on taking the KKFC money. I'm disappointed. Without that I don't have much motivation to thrash another car together since time is running out. I have mouths to feed over here. To me, this is much more than a hobby.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

"la poule qui caquette est celui qui a pondu l'oeuf" Krazy Kajun for "The chicken that cackled is the one that laid the egg". The KKFC race would have been a brilliant idea to exposed the evil spirits of the class had NHRA not "excepted" us in the rule amendment. Too scoop is right, an older head like mine can't win. A single engine builder cackled for the rule amendment and got it. Cackled again starting this thread.

Bonne chance et beau jour Ã* tous

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

"Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulez" :rolleyes:

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Comme le tourne hemi

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I feel like we're going in circles. Nobody over here asked for any rule amendments, just enforcement. Stop making it like it was our idea.

Here is an email I received that you wrote to NHRA accusing us of cheating with external mods.

Car 403H

I respectfully request a waiver of my external modification violation just for the Dutch Classic next month. The external bolts are a safety upgrade, not performance. The 4 1/4" allen bolts are visible and will be removed when the motor comes out after the Dutch (unless I don't get to go?). However, the Barton cars are being allowed to race with visible adapter plates that hold valve covers and intakes to the engine. These are clearly "external modifications" as well. (Not to mention overmilling of the head rail). Of course, if no one else had external mods, I would not even ask. It is my understanding that 2013 rule language will clear up head guidance for all.

"Barton cars are being allowed to race with visible adapter plates that hold valve covers and intakes to the engine." - I don't appreciate you sending NHRA letters stating we are illegal when we are clearly not. The "adapters" you speak of are simply valve cover spacers because our rocker system became taller. You should have been looking at CW's stuff instead because his engines did have adapter plates for his overmilled heads.

"It is my understanding that 2013 rule language will clear up head guidance for all." - You were one of the guys asking NHRA to change the ruling just because you didn't understand the rule book. Maybe they can get a French copy for you to read.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David We only asked nhra if we could cut into the vavle cover bolt holes on the vc surface like you and were told no.I dont think your camp liked this as it would effect your heads so this is why we have the rule of the day.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Two scoop, even your publicist has Barton-ism. He failed to post the rest of that email (which I copied your guys when I wrote it).

"I will be glad to poll the AH racers planning on attending, the race sponser and track owner for permission as well. If anyone has any issue, I will not race. I have been an avid supporter of this class and have donated over $15k in purse money over the last two years. I would like to attend this last race. Thank you in advance for your consideration. Stephen Hebert "

As hard as I work to promote the class, your killing it. I live "under the bus" so sticks and stones. Bring your comp elim junk down here and set the AH record. Hum??? spacer?? external mod??? = GLASS HOUSE

PS. Thought you had a business to run?? Get off the internet. (Screwhead Steve)

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

So would a taller fabricated valve cover have sufficed in this situation or just weld the spacer to the bottom of the valve cover? I mean, I would assume most are raising the spring height to squeeze out a little more lift if the engine can use it.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I've read all the posts and I don't claim to know a damn thing about hemi heads, just want to ask where do you guys go from here?
Even if you can come up with a solution everyone can live with, 5 minutes from then someone will be trying to get around the new rule( nature of the beast).
Pandoras' box has been opened, I don't envy you guys.
Hope something good comes out of this because as a fan I really enjoy watching you guys race!

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

dem·a·gogue
noun\ˈde-mə-ˌgäg\
Definition of DEMAGOGUE
1 : a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power


2: a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times

Common usage, one who uses rhetoric and propaganda to gain power that would not be given if truth and logic held sway.


Definition of HEMIGOGUE
hem·i·gogue
noun\ˈhe-mi-ˌgäg\

1: a person who makes use of unpopular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain horsepower

2: a person not championing the cause of Super Stock people in modern times

3: a charter member of the entitlement generation where everything is everyone else’s fault

4: a person who surfs classracer instead of operating Daddy’s CNC machine

Common usage, one who uses rhetoric and propaganda to gain horsepower that would not be given if truth and logic held sway.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I crew on a comp team, so I have no skin in the game but I do have a observation. After 50 plus years of class racing NHRA is still checking cars the same old way (we will put a valve cover on the engine to see if it fits, really). Time for NHRA to step up and get in the 90's (when CNC machining became popular) and upgrade their technical departments measuring systems. Nascar now uses a 28 point body laser measuring system at the track along with body templates to measure their cars. There are also portable measuring arms that link to a computer to do measurements. Nhra could put a system together to measure all their cars, TF FC Prostock, promod,

Also, NHRA could probably get the dimensions from the manufacturer's of the engine components,(I bet most manufacturer's will give coordinates with factory dimension's on it for measuring)
Probably could get a machine manufacturer to be a official NHRA supplier

Just my 2 cents

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

As you know ,the only upgrades the NHRA has performed are corporate paychecks and financial enhancements to the members and downgraded their responsibility to the members of the sportsman classes. They are truly out of touch with sportsman racing.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Which is a big part of the reason all this crap happened in the first place, and how the rule got pushed so far, then - not enforced - but changed !!!!! Very lame, NHRA.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Hey David,

I was informed from the NHRA tech Dept today that there is Hemi Head casting that is approved for us that has no manifold bolt holes and no pushrod holes. I was told i could get them from you.... Do you have any in stock?

Thanks

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Do they look like this?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Nope... looks more like this!

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb473/Posi67/T1.jpg

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Its been out for over a year available to all through Mopar

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps44fbc6df.jpg

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

This is like hemigate.....who's a__ you have to have your head up to get those????..... What's the part no? ......559ruintheclass?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Thats the latest M1 head. They were in the Mopar catalog 3 months before they were out. I guess no one reads the catalog…

Mine came from a Chrysler dealer. I'm sure David will sell anyone a set.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Over the counter parts. Just have to do your homework…

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

MY BAD..... didnt know about them...silly really...part of blame here comes from mopar....shouldnt let out partially machined heads to superstock...i havent seen a printed mopar catalog in a while ...just looked and the catalog on mopars website is from 2010.......why just not have a bare casting available???.....

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Damn one percenters are screwing up the entire country! :D

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I've sat back and watched this nonsense without saying a word, even though it affects some of my customers and myself. I figured that NHRA would rule in favor of preserving the car count, which they have, almost. As many of you know, I've been playing this game for a while. Now I find out that my combination will suffer the collateral damage as a result of a few cry babies not being able to keep their pie hole shut.
I've been using cylinder heads with the valve cover attaching holes blown through for twenty years, been through tear down dozens of times, never a problem because the tech guys knew the compound angle issue on a hemi and as long as the important stuff was right, there was no problem. Clutchless gearboxes, lifter angle's changed, lifter positions moved welded ports, moved port positions sheetmetal tunnel rams, and on and on. So now we are going to worry about a how much of an original1/4 bolt hole remains, and rat out each other based on who can skate that rule the best?
Look at the rest of your bogus car before you start this kind of crap, I have. The first time I have a problem because of this silliness, I will point it out to the proper officials. You shouldn't start this kind of stuff unless either your own program is 100% legit or your racing with a bunch of idiots. Trust me, you're wrong on both counts.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Right on Tom!! I remember thinking the same thing at the time. I bet a lot of those "unported" heads migrated to stock eliminator..

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

they were in stock eliminator then to.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Ok,after preaching the rule for the longest time I looked at some old rulebooks,an as David says there never was any mention of valve cover bolt holes. So I guess that what's allowed in heads now has been legal by the book for years. For some reason I always thought it was in the book. Guess that makes all the b,c, and d cares with vc bolt holes blown through illegal now. And since the rule never said anything about vc bolt holes in ss ,doesn't this effect Chevys too? Nobody never noticed that except for Barton? Oh I know it was one of those unwritten rules right?

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Strange but?


My 2000 rule book states the same thing as my 2011 rule book

Stock - Intake side of the head may not be cut into any part of the valve cover bolt holes

Super Stock - Requirements and specifications for all Super Stock categories are the same for those as Stock with the following exceptions.

With no mention in the Super Stock section allowing cutting into the Valve cover bolt holes.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Peter
Not fair. You actually know to look at Stock Section too.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

If there is a section listed in Super Stock, it replaces whatever was said in the Stock rules. Anything that is a repeat rule is rewritten in the Super Stock section. And they left out the part about the valve cover bolt holes, end of story. Why would they write all that stuff about cylinder heads and leave out such an important rule, unless it was meant to be left out?

I'm sure if you asked every Hemi Super Stock guy out there whether or not their bolt holes were broken into, 95% of them would tell you yes. It's nothing new.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David

Whether or not 95% of the guys do it?

It is "THE RULE" HIGHLIGHTED on PAGE 1 SECTION 11 SUPERSTOCK


Right below the picture. First thing you can possibly read in the Superstock section.


Super Stock - Requirements and specifications for all Super Stock categories are the same for those as Stock with the following exceptions.

Absolutely NO mention anywhere of allowance to modify any VC bolt holes. But specifically mentioned in the stock rules as PROHIBITED ie., may not

hmmm, If it's been left out it must be one of those at least maybe possibly a 13 year oversite? Possibly longer if I recall my older rule books.

Cheers

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

I have no dog in this fight, but I have been racing in super stock since the mid eightys, before the ported heads deal came along. When they allowed port head deal came along some guys got crazy with rolling the heads over and getting into the valve cover bolt hole mostly small block chevys at the time, that is when the rule was put into place must of been mid 90s. I know if I show up in tech with my small block chevy head with it rolled over so far that there was no valve cover holes I would be DQ no questions asked. Then came the combustion camber rule guys got inventive with it some were dq for that, nhra had cutawys with them to see if your heads were legal. Every time people get caught cheating they start crying I spent all this time and money becuse I thought I could. And every time this happens it usely cost 99 percent of the rest of the racers more money to stay competive and you guys wonder why we lose racers every year. Just because you have taken the easy road to get your hp and now want to twist the rules to your advantage and then say but everybody else does it, does not make it right. Just remember you started this thread and you will be judged by your peers just some will not speech up. Tom

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Amen Brother Tom. They better bring plenty of gaskets to Belle Rose!

Ego over ethics.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

David
You say that "Anything that is a repeat rule is rewritten in the Super Stock section". That is not true. In Stock is says that the leading and trailing edge of wheel opening can be trimmed. It is not rewritten in SS section. There are several rules that carry over fron S to SS that are not rewritten in SS and there are several rules from S that are rewritten in SS word for word. Also some that are changed. This is where the confision may come from. There is no carb section in SS but that doesnt mean we have no rules. It means we follow the S rules. There are others but the point is if not CHANGED for SS it is as written in S. My examples came from the 2012 rulebook but I think 2013 is the same. The problem is that there is no set pattern to what NHRA rewrites in the SS section and what they don't. The Cyl Head section is the perfect example. They rewrite part but not all of the section. But anything that is allowed in SS and not in S is written out. Nowhere does it say in the SS section that you can cut into the VC bolt holes so since there is no change to the S section rule on that, as Peter pointed out, the S rule applies.
The fact that NHRA Tech has allowed it to get where it has does not change the rule book and the intent, only what is enforced.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Well, I just recieved a clarification on the external mod rule from NHRA. I was trying to schedule my head inspection at Belle Rose as per my letter after Indy. External mods are now approved for AH ie the whole sentence "excepts" AH. Spacers are fine. Heck, lug nuts cool too.

So I am Happy Gilmore apologizing to Chubbs (Two Scoop)

"I'm stupid. You're smart. I was wrong. You were right. You're the best. I'm the worst. You're very good-looking. I'm not attractive." And Two Scoop goes

"All right all right, as long as you're willing to admit all that."

I am over it all, just got B-slapped for the last three years. Now let's just grind on. Hemi TARP program.

Re: Hemi Head Ruling
 

Break over laughing . :D