Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Randy ,
I don't think the local track operators went to bracket racing back in the 70's in order to run off the spectators, but rather to keep the car counts up. Stock ,Super Stock and Modified was already becoming scienced out and semi- professional in nature. Add to that more *HRA regional and national events, and that's were a lot of the local cars ended up going to. I believe we wouldn't have about half of the national and divisional tracks today, if it wasn't for bracket racing.They couldn't have survived. Be that as it may, here we are, a generation or two later. I don't know about you, but changing the past has never been my strong suit. Now, I agree that et/ breakout style racing is not real exciting to the average Saturday night spectator, and it shows, in most cases. A heads up , flat out format that is truly affordable might get some of those local spectators back. By truly affordable I mean for the average young ,working family fan...or even the average single guy. So far, I haven't seen it. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
The car counts were less at most tracks with class racing. I agree. But for instance I was at Eddyville getting my butt handed to me in 77, and 78, and they had well over 150 cars each time I went there, but it was an exception. Getting beat did not discourage me then it just made me want to do what I'd seen others do. Bethany, on the other hand was lucky to have 50 cars a week, but still had between 500, and 1,500 spectators every night clear up to 2008. There truly is a way to make an affordable class, but the naysayers say it's impossible. From what I gather is they say people will cheat it out of existence. I think they are selling it short. We had rules I helped write, and most nights races were decided by .01 to .001 from 4lbs. per c.i.d. to 11.5 lbs. per cube with a .1 handicap for every 1\2 lb. per cube. Bracket racing gets cars, but local competition gets people interested. Also, Eddyville went to bracket racing because of tech responsibility, not car count.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Also, in class racing the HRA's have added to the cost constantly without a thought. Computers, clutchless transmissions, $5,000 clutches, exotic materials, heads changing every couple years, hand fabricated manifolds, etc. To name a few. Some classes ought to be allowed that, but I think they need a class that is restricted. That's just me, and I also know we are all so divided, that nothing will ever come of it.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
The simplest answer is;
It's not an "automotive world" anymore and more importantly, there are too many other things to do for entertainment. How many channels did tv have in the 60's/70's? I think we had 3. Add to that, the internet! Back then, if you were into volleyball but the only excitement in town was a dragrace at the local airport, you go! Now? You either watch volleyball live on the computor or tv beamed in from Australia. The 25% of the population that was into cars are still there, but they can't drag another 50% like they used to because there is so much more out there for people to do. Those that like dragracing, are actually doing it cause nobody wants to "watch and not do". How much to race a car...Brock, I don't know where the heck you got your numbers from, but bracket racing ensured even a street car can have fun and go rounds. If your talking Class car, then yeah it can be dang expensive....unless you talk to Billy hehe. Just got back from the track about an hour ago, had a great time, lots of friends, lots of people in the stands (2-300 not all family) when the class cars ran, everybody stopped and watched them. I seen a 17 year old girl in 2nd place for points in street class driving a new toyota, bunch of guys helping a friend race for the first time...the sky ain't falling guys, it's just different than it used to be way back when. Dragracing will never "stop" because it doesn't matter if it's cars, trucks, beltsanders, whatever..as long as there are two of them, somebody will line them up. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Oh, and it's "dragracing" not "classracing" that we're talking about. (according to the thread starter) So while some perceive dragracing as "at an HRA track" there is a lot more at local tracks and local programs that are doing just fine.
(our local classracing went from about 6-8 cars about 5 years ago to about 24 cars now) |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Word from local track had been Test and Tune night paid for Bracket racing days.
Its a shame the threads on what could HELP drag racing don't get constructive support. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
And Dick would that track be one of a dozen in a 2hr radius?
Two of the local tracks here do T&T nights too, and yes they make a lot more money cause the guys just want to make passes and "go fast". But that's not what's keeping the lights on. There are four tracks here, 2hr's, two are 4hr's and a 6hr's drive. In all of that area, the tracks still had to divide up the weekends of summer. Each have their own weekends, but the money making weekend is when the cars travel en masse to each track to chase points. Last weekend there were probably 2-250 cars total. There are radio ads, newspaper etc. It was bracket racing and class racing. Could of booked in a jet car for entertainment, but that wrecks the racing for everyone else. Not sure what you want to fix, more spectators, period? Add fires and explosions, that'll get the "non-automotive" people, but it won't get them into dragracing, they just want to be entertained by fire and danger. More racers? As old people quit, there ARE young ones starting in juniors and then moving up. Friends of racers trying it, etc. There are more people at the local tracks now than 10 years ago. I see the nhra pissing people off and people stomping their feet and leaving, but that's a leadership issue in glendora. Are classes smaller, less people going to nationals etc? Yeah! Check out fuel prices, constantly changing rules, etc,etc,etc. We have heads up racing at a couple of our tracks here, been going on for a few years. Guess what, the top dog (who spent the most) won a year or two and then everybody wouldn't enter cause they knew they couldn't win. Along comes a different heads up format and all the "look how big my XXX is" types show up, run and...the guy with the most money wins. Now they're trying to limit tire size so that's the limiter that money can't fix...well what do you know, the $$$ guys won again anyway. And no, it didn't draw any more spectators even when it was billed as the fastest cars in the maritimes. I think heads up in class is awesome, other than that, it sucks unless your the "big dog" with the $$$. I really, REALLY don't see a heads up class as the savior to dragracing which will bring the spectators flocking to the track. Hey maybe I'm wrong and best of luck to those who do try it, I'm just not holding my breath. How did top stock make out? |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Goingbroke has some valid points. I ain't arguing that, but the real problem with heads up racing in a limited format is the racers are twice as smart as the tech guys. Just from my experience in spec head racing, and I only had 3 years doing it was even the dumbest team there was within .3 of the fastest. Now, that being said the great, smart, hard working teams were within .01 or .02 from each other. And I don't mean the ones who spent the most money. I did a motor with a Chevy block, 20 year old pistons, NHRA legal 750, and left holding the track record. But I would have a racer tech represented by a Ford guy, Chevy guy, and a Mopar guy. Hard to slip one by anyone when all are allowed to look., it could be done, but I doubt it ever will. And, I don't for a minute think I am the smartest guy that would enter these deals, so don't start. Lots of brains out there I haven't competed against, but would love to try.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
I truly wonder why drag racers who are not competitive in heads up racing seem to quit, but dirt track racers that are not very competitive seem to just keep on coming back for more. Anyone? Also, why do they seem to keep costs down, and their classes never fail?
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Quote:
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
I was responding to a post that stated that no break-out racing causes 25 cars to dwindle to 2 or 3. Again my question. Why do roundy round guys with rules such as Wissota A and B Mod capture an audience of 1,500 to 2,500 and have car counts in the 50's every week. Why, with limited rules, and inexpensive alternatives does it not just fold up? Why does it work there?
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Randy I honestly believe some of the attraction week in and week out at the round track is the time a race takes to run. Many laps, many changes of leader, many bumps and grinds. People like the action. The lower cost classes due to rules keeps the racers coming back. I believe the best 2 of 3 of the old "booked in show" was an attraction for Stk and SS. If the announcer kept up with the cars in a heads up show the people could also enjoy coming back to see it.
I remember one Stk 56 chevy I watched every week at Indy to see how far he got and think others would pick a favorite to watch also. Sure looks like it would be hard to get people to accept saving money by fixing the rules if they had to give up their current rules and habits. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
True Dick, but my point was how do they keep limited rules and cost under control, and drag racing can't. Makes no sense to me, but what do I know. Why does it work there to limit cost, and in drag racing everyone says the cost will get out of control.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Quote:
http://www.usraracing.com/rules/rule...sp?NewsID=4422 Here are some ways they control costs. Quote 6.1 Camaros, Firebirds or Mustangs are not allowed. 8.3 Suspension must be unaltered approved OE in stock location and replaceable by stock part. 10.3.1 OEM Carburetor: GM to GM, Ford to Ford, Chrysler to Chrysler; May remove choke, but other alterations are not allowed. Holley carburetors are not allowed. 16.1 OPTION 1 – Crate Engine: 16.1.1 GM Performance Parts (GPP) factory-sealed CT350 Chevy small block crate engine (Part No. 88958602 or 19258602): includes four-bolt-main block, 9:1 hypereutectic pistons, cast iron crankshaft, GM iron Vortec cylinder heads, high-rise dual-plane intake manifold, 8-quart single kick-out circle track oil pan, valve cover kit with breather tube and breather, unique dual-pattern cam and special "kool nut" rocker arm nut design. 6.2 OPTION 2 – Standard Engine: 16.2.1 Maximum compression ration of 9.5:1 is permitted. 16.2.2 Flat top pistons only. GM cars must be 76cc heads or larger (approved head numbers are 336, 339, 388, 441, 454, 487, 624, 813, 882, 991 and 993). Ford may not utilize aftermarket heads or SVO heads. Chryslers may not utilize after market or W2 heads (360 cubic inch heads only). Close quote EDIT: These tracks are very low overhead as compared to the drag strips I've seen. Tickets run around $15 and pit passes are in the $30 range. Hanging out with Super Stock drivers in the Great NorthWest on a Super Saturday at Pacific Raceway is a bargain at $15 all included. In my opinion the nature of circle track and the laws of physics work to contain costs for the round round folks. You can only go so fast on a dirt oval. Dumping $40,000 under the hood won't really help when you run out of track and have to turn left instead of pull the chute or hit the brakes. Back in the '60s we went to the track to see the match race and stayed for the races, now NHRA has tied up all the National name cars in all these "Nationals" and there isn't anything special for the average fan to go to the track every weekend for. There are 7 NHRA Divisions. How about 7 Divisional Championships with Pro categories and One (1) National Championship? If NHRA still wants it's Countdown, award points and tack on four races in September or September/October as a month long series? Just some odd thoughts to add here... Dale |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Spec engines of much less cost and standardization.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Back around 75 there was a heads up class at National Speedway called Pro Am and a similar one at Hampton Raceway called Run Tuff. They were both Lbs per Ci, and they were both short lived as only the top engine builders or money bags could compete. I remember it being announced over the PA at Hampton that Dino Ramirez had a set of heads for sale at 2800 dollars, (probably not the good ones), that was more than than half of my yearly take home salary back then and I bracket raced successfully 2-4 days a week at both tracks at that time. It was a great class, like a local Pro Stock but like most, I had a better chance of seeing God than competing.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Thanks Dale for an intelligent response. I truly wanted an answer, not an argument. Your take makes sense. But my opinion on any heads-up deal is who is policing the cars.I think more people quit because a select few are allowed to cheat, than they are out spent. Now, if there's no restraint on mods, then for sure it will die a quick death. I believe a racers board, and head tech from the manufacturer would solve a lot of that, but who knows. I know Wissota kicked out an engine I did for B Mod because I had bushed the lifter bores. It never said you couldn't so being a drag racer, I thought. "What the he""." But it didn't fly under the, "If it ain't listed, it ain't legal" rule. Whatever that is, but I must say, I never did it again.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
If you want Heads Up Stock like Racing.
Need to limit Spring Pressure and Lift. Like 130#. Fair enough for a good cam and not kill the Lifters. Standardize on a cuin, flat top pistons, chamber size. Regulate the valve size and have to be spec heads. $10000 port jobs will not make a difference I think a key here is the Spring Pressure where super ported heads would not offer much an advantage. Cuin and weigh so a SB Block can lighten to race in BB Class. AND BB to add weigh for SB Class. my 2 cents |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Not bad ideas. I have a few of my own that would limit the cost.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
1 Attachment(s)
Thought this thread could use a picture.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Absolutely beautiful car!
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Mr. Butler and Mr. Biebel had some good points. I'm in my early 40's, have kids and a mortgage and a 8 to 5 job. I can't afford to drive 200 to 600 miles to a division race and get back to work on Mon or Tues. I don't mind getting beat in a heads up race if I have a horse in the race, but when someone has as much in a pair of cylinder heads as I do my whole motor, it's frustrating. I believe stock and ss need heads up racing, but even up the playing field a little. Not sure what the answer is, but a little camera through the oil drain plug to have a look-see at what's hiding in the oil pan might slow a few cars down.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Great thoughts Todd. A specified head, and other limits including, but not limited too, an inspection hole in the pan would be a great idea.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Quote:
Anyone know? Honda bearings in Super Stock? Wow What's an oversided cam? Ported heads and manifolds have been around a long time in Super Stock haven't they? What exotic material is being used? You don't have to tell me what it's being used for, I know some things need to be kept to yourself. Thanks |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Quote:
http://classracer.com/classforum/att...1&d=1411570583 |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Quote:
I got my 'second start' in class racing with a borrowed car, and eventually bought my own car, a crate motor Stocker that I got for $9K turnkey. Many years later, I made it a Super Stocker just by changing the engine and fuel system. I've upgraded it a little bit at a time, by choice. You could build my car from scratch for under $30K (so long as you don't mind going slow). Could I go spend $30K on a car today? No! Again, I started out small and worked my way up a little bit at a time. For example, when I started bending the rear end housing, I elected to have the car back-halfed and 4-linked. Within a few months, winnings paid for the project. https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...bd792230d31883 Can you do it "cheap"? Absolutely. Most people just don't want to. Another thread a while back bemoaned how there's no new blood in drag racing, to which I replied with a lengthy list of young guns in the sport. People have been claiming "there's no new blood!" since I was a kid, which unfortunately was a long time ago now. :p |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
I have read and re-read most of the posts in this thread. This thread started out about what hurt drag racing. It is now time for my 2 cents, which isn't worth that much probably.
Several have mentioned that cost has been a factor. If you look around everything costs more than it did many years ago. So you can't blame it on the cost, totally. Look at the Pro classes, all cars in Top Fuel and Funny Car look very similar. The Pro Stocks don't look like production cars anymore. Take the Pro Classes and give the cars some identity and the fan base would grow. Even us guys that have been around for many years are tired of the way the "big boy" cars look. In the thread about Larry Morgan quitting Pro Stock one guy mentioned that the factory super stock blower cars aren't that far from the Pro Stocks. Replace the Pro Stocks with the FSS cars and that would be fun to watch, and we would see what those cars are really capable of. Have the Funny Cars look more like a car and see what happens. Maybe even take some power away and go back to 1320 feet for the race. I am sure that will bring out some enthusiastic comments. I am not sure how to fix Top Fuel, but there needs to be more than one engine that can be run, and limit them on power and go back to 1320 also.. There may be more than one engine that meets spec, but I would like to see all the makes represented (ford, chevy, buick, chrysler, etc. The Top Fuel and Funny Cars can only run one specific tire made by Goodyear, where's the competition in that??? These ideas are probably the dreams of an older guy, but would make for some interesting cars going down the 1320 again. In all, let's put some fun back in drag racing and more people would get involved and more fans would go to the drags. Just one last thought. I understand the need for enclosed trailers, but I applaud the guys that still use an open trailer and travel in "old school" class to each event. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
I used an open trailer for many years and it was all well and good, but it certainly has it's drawbacks. I purchased a 28' enclosed trailer about 7 yrs. ago and although it was a considerable expense, I no longer have to deal with the hassle of finding a motel (since I stay in the trailer) or any of the worries associated with the car sitting out overnight and unattended. And the motels keep getting worse, unsafe and more expensive. Just my .02.
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
What is LEGAL anymore????
|
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
As I sit here at Maple Grove, drinking a glass of homemade wine, smoking a nice bowl of Captain Black reading this post after spending the better portion of the day getting into and getting parked at this event, which is absoultely packed with cars, and will soon be packed with spectators, I am left bewildered and wondering.....
WHAT EXACTLY IS WRONG ???.... Just saying....... Oh well, now carry on, and continue bashing NHRA and drag racing from your keyboards at home... Kevin |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
Kevin, you are so right people who do not race should not blame NHRA, Class Racing or those they have raced against. People who enter and support the events are having a great time with friends. That is their goal.
Now that said some will continue to "discuss" the expensive cars, the "bogus HP' car that beat them, or the cost of gas. That is human nature. Have a great race. Some of us will continue to seek a way to make Stk and SS a FAN favorite or cheaper, or more even factor wise. That doesn't mean we don't LOVE drag racing. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
I.M.H.O., I will offer things that are hurting drag racing:
1. The increased cost for spectators, and non-professional racers. 2. The doubling of the registration & increased competition costs. 3. Lowering the Stock/Super Stock indexes .3 sec., making it harder for low-buck slower roller racers (me included), to be competitive. 4. Changing the altitude correction factors (along with #3), from the original Stock/Super Stock factors, to the factors used by the .90 Super classes. 5. Perhaps the lack of an over-the-road car show, because the enclosed trailers don't identify the racing operation (good for security, but not for the fans...especially the young ones). 6. Lack of variety in Stock eliminations (at Indy especially), given the changed format of class winners not automatically qualifying for the 128 car field (not to mention single class entries having to be in combo class runoffs...it's not their fault no other cars in their classes showed for the races...they should still get their Wally's for being .5 under the index like it used to be)...many of them may not be quicker against their indexes than the barrage of the newer FSS. Stock Eliminator (at Indy) is essentially becoming Pro Stock with many of the qualified cars being the same, except for paint schemes...no longer so much of the variety we once had...not everyone races one of the Copo Camaro's, Challengers, or Mustangs. Less we not forget how awesome the 2010 A/S Final between John Calverts Ford Thunderbolt, and Jason McCormacks Dodge Coronet was...variety in a battle of equally competitive cars, not today where the newer fuel injected super-charged cars, are battling in the same classes with the older carb.cars. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
I think if you read the posts .... collectively everyone specifically presented what were and continue to be reasons for what is occurring in modern day Drag Racing.
I would also like to state that no one has added the following: Electronics....I guess many would rather use the term Technology. Electronics/Technology that creep-ed in/evolved by everyone over time and is a must have to be competitive basically in all classes. Whats next....HUD (Heads Up Displays)? My basic point here is that there are many reasons that have been presented, However..... Drag Racing is where its at because Drag Racers themselves evolved the sport of Drag Racing from where it once was to what it is today. And maybe that's the place everyone wants it to be. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
As someone who is getting back into drag racing after being out of it for more then a decade, I have seen a lot of changes in just that period of time. It is more expensive, but so is everything else. But, from what I have noticed, the type of people who are interested in participating in this sport is dwindling.
I am 43 years old, and was still in diapers during the "Golden Era". However, I remember watching Garlits, Prudhome, Muldowney, Jenkins, etc.. on TV ( ABC Wide World of Sports, no cable then) with my father when I was a kid in the '70's. I knew then, I wanted to build/ drag race a car someday, and in the 80's and '90's, I did. Nothing serious, but I did it. My point is, the type of people who built and drag raced in the early days where, for the most part, blue collar guys. They built and raced there own cars. They were not adverse to getting their hands dirty. They worked all day at a regular job, and then worked on the car at night. They did not have a lot of money, but made up for it with ingenuity. They did it because they loved it. The average fan could also identify with the cars they were racing. The people who are participating in grassroots drag racing today are pretty much the same way, but there are just a lot less of us. People, today, are more lazy, and have no ambition. The average kid can turn on the video game, and drive what ever car suits them, and when they crash it, just hit the reset button. The average man, today, has no idea what is under the hood of the Honda minivan, and does not really care. He scoffs at people who rather work on there own cars, then play fantasy football. He would rather watch his reality TV show or stick and ball sports from his recliner. He is not the least bit interested in putting in the extra time and work to do anything else, much less work on a car. Drag racing can be expensive, period. It always has been. If you are willing to go the extra mile, work hard, and think out of the box it still can be done affordably. There are just fewer of us willing to make that commitment, and we are getting older with each passing year. The times have changed, and not always for the better. |
Re: Part of what hurt drag racing
I think drag Racing is just doing fine.
It has evolved to other venues. Especially all the Outlaw type bring what you brung cars. Today we have 6 second street cars. Or rather really fast Race Cars adapted to drive on the street. Lots of Clubs are being started. I can see a Car Club run off. IMHO instead of what is hurting Drag Racing. What would improve Stock, SS, Comp (would love to see MP back)? What would improve all the pro series? What can be done to reduce costs? Personally I would like to get with investors to create a Mobile Motel with Restaurant and Wash Facilities. That way some of us can just bring the Trailer at 15mpg instead of 8mpg. Dan |
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:13 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright Class Racer.com. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners.