Re: 2015 Rules
 

Billy, the problem is that those cars, and especially the factory programs, simply don't fit in Stock, the way Stock is structured, and they cannot be made to. They don't really fit into Super Stock, either.

So, unlike the fuel injected production street cars, you'll never be able to merge them back into the regular classes, and it has nothing to do with them having stick and automatics combined.

So long as those programs continue, you will have paper cars built out of the parts catalogs, and intentionally assigned extremely bogus factors. It is the way those programs are designed and intended to work. It allows the factories to participate for the smallest possible investment, and still have their cars go extremely fast.

Since NHRA evidently has no desire to create one or two entirely new eliminators, the closest they can come to leveling the field is adding separate classes to the two existing eliminators for the factory programs. I'd love to see those cars truly separated, as much for their own benefit as well as for the rest of us.

The truth is, in a completely separate eliminator of their own, they could really be showcased, and do a lot of good for the factories and for drag racing. There is no telling what they could grow those classes into, there's almost no limit, provided it is done right.

The Super Stock version of a class like that could be the second coming of Pro Stock, much the way Pro Stock began, properly managed. Unfortunately, I don't think NHRA wants to do that, and I don't think they have enough of the right people to do it, and I expect the number of those people to continue to decline.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Imagine that, the factory cars got their own classes, like everyone was asking for...and people are STILL complaining!!!

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Will the FS cars have a combo of their own, when only 1 car is entered in a particular class? Or will they be in the combo for the "older" cars?

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Nick, the only people complaining (and not being straight about why they are unhappy) have new cars and don't like suddenly not being one of the fast guys in their classes. If NHRA doesn't lower their indexes about half a second they will still dominate the top of qualifying sheets if they want to. Would still be killers in class combo races. Of course, it's not a big deal to guys running lower classes where they didn't have to deal with them heads up. Most people are happy.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Billy is slipping folks. He actually just asked whether he should keep his opinions to himself? And deprive us of his wisdom and common sense. No way.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Factoring by HP has always been a flawed method. It punishes the hard workers. Dividing the cars into smaller and smaller classes decreases this as they don't run another car type for class and only race bracket style at points meets.
There is the point where if you want to be a class winner now regardless the age of car you can do it. Maybe even with a Bye.
For those who "care" about winning on an even basis, maybe re starting a LB/CUBIC inch class would work. If you want to win in S and SS you Must change ahead of the rules not with them. Beat the adjustments to hp or class by an unseen combo or NEW motor spec. Buy an Injected car, then a 4 valve head car then a supercharged car. Any Turbos on the horizon?

Support a New Modified Class for a real even chance at a good time and reward for your work.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Who only makes 900hp??? I agree they should make a lot more!

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Check out the new CarCraft and there you go! Calvert's 5.0 does the deed.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Fair enough, Ed. After seeing all the comments over the years about how "everything would be fine if the new cars were in their own classes," I was just surprised to see a fair amount of grumbling in this thread. I agree that the FS indexes will need adjustment, maybe the 0.30 that NHRA gave back originally?

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Oct 31 was the first that I heard of the SS/CS head problem. but what problem? I feel that GM, Ford and Mopar were very even with GM having the slight edge. We all Crack heads. I have had to back out of CFM for reliability, Why can't GM? We are using the basic W-2 head which came out 40 plus years ago. there is nothing else. Again, GM racers get there way. How many Ford racers knew what was going on? I thought we had the class back on course when we stopped the GM racers wanting the aluminum heads.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Marlin, I was building a Ford Mustang to run SS/CS. I learned about it from my cylinder head guy on November 2013. He was already building a set of GM LS cast iron heads for a customer to run in SS/CS. I also posted about this issue earlier this year on 01/14/2014. You can read about it in Page 4 of the link shown below.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...+degree&page=4

I called Pat in Glendora and informed him the LS cast iron head is a truck cylinder head only available for a few years. He told me that as long it was an inline cylinder head an had an OEM part number, it was legal.

Also called Bruce and he confirmed the upcoming allowance of cast iron aftermarket cylinder heads in the class. I made him aware of the 14 degree cast iron GM head, same as used in Nostalgia dragster and he did not comment.

The Chevy Bowtie cylinder heads are available in 3 different volume sizes. racers are using the larger volume size. The cylinder head is used in many circle track classes and this is the first time I hear about cracking issues. My own cylinder head guy says it is just an excuse to justify the use of aftermarket heads by GM racers.

As I read the current proposed rule, if what Venice stated there are only specific heads allowed. Currently the amendment says: "Aftermarket iron heads permitted in CS. If they intend to only have specific cylinder heads, then I believe the rule must have language such as: "Only NHRA accepted aftermarket iron heads permitted."

Re: 2015 Rules
 

At this time do we know if more than the Dart head is available permitted by NHRA???
Also heard that the dart head do "not" make any more power than the GM heads, they are thicker and probably will not crack after porting. My head only cracked on the external part of the head above head bolts. Told because the head surface had to much angle milled.

Being one of the longest CS drivers, what ever after market company gets approved, the head for GM should remain 23 degrees. Would save some money in combinations, Intake and maybe pistons. Back when the class was created it was for what was available at the time(cast iron) in the 70's, modified eliminator days. For GM it was the 23 degree heads, I believe the turbo heads. MY opinion only.

Bob Lasko
1134
SS/CS

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Dart offers a 23 degree Iron Eagle Platinum 230cc Intake runner cast iron head with a 49cc chamber flowing 308 CFM's out of the box. World Products offers the Motown 23 degree cast iron head with a 220cc Intake runner. Let's not forget that there are still some of the RHS/Pro Topline, 23 degree cast iron heads out there with as cast, 245cc intake runners too.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Bruce told me directly the two part numbers I dont have the numbers here at home, but I looked them up right away and one was the existing Dart 180 cc currently legal in the traditional classes, the other IS the 230cc/49cc Dart previously mentioned, Those are the only two on the list as of my conversation with Bruce.

Regarding Mr Bogner's comment about cracking, I agree, if your heads are cracking then maybe you just went to far? I have two sets of N heads that have cracked ironically across the exhaust face from the head bolt bosses, wrote it off as just bad castings. Manned up and built another set.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Were there any 'non-Factory Stock' combinations running in the 6.00 to 6.49, 6.50 to 6.99 or 7.00 to 7.49 classes in Stock? If so, where do they fit now?

Do they have to add weight to fit the 7.50-7.99 class or could they run with the FS cars? Or are they ineligible to race now?

(Reference pg 29 of the 2014-2015 amendment.)

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Am I reading the rules revision right ??? It looks like chassis certification won't be enforced every 3 years ???

Re: 2015 Rules
 

It's unchanged. They just moved it to General Regulations.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

According to Nitro Joe's Stats for 2014 only one 1969 Camaro ran in BB/SA. It was a 427 430/445 with a natural BB/SA classification. At another race the same car added weight and ran CC/SA. For 2015 any older car that falls 7.49 or higher in Stock must add weight and move to the new 7.50 AA class.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

We were told a couple years ago that 1-2 Dart head castings would be made legal for the Chevrolet CS class, but they would remain a 23* head with standard port location. No raised runner 15-18-23* stuff like the Pro-Action or RHS castings, as the intention is just to replace the GM Bowtie heads. Something that would utilize the same manifolds, pistons, etc... We had even started an R&D effort around these heads, and found no power gains to be had - other than hopefully increased longevity.

From what we have been told, it is still only going to be an "Accepted" list of aftermarket castings. So they have definitely worded this update incorrectly if that is the case. Hopefully they will make a revision on this line item soon for everyone's clarification.

Small correction - we ran 9.22 @143 in Belle Rose back in 2009. That's everything we had! SS/CS is a very fun class with some great competition, and I surely hope it maintains it's health. In 2011 David Bogner, James Antonette Jr. and myself all finished in the Top 10 nationally while running CS - it's definitely a well represented class.

Mike Mans

Re: 2015 Rules
 

They'll also need an SFI cert every 2 years...

Re: 2015 Rules
 

You mean your 10 degree N351 heads cant keep up? Who makes these 11,15 and 18 degree heads that are approved? I think Venice has proven that the Ford can go fast and he hasn't had enough time to fully wring out his combo.When you have some blood and sweat in this class than you can understand what it's about.GM castings are weak. We have done 5 sets to try and keep up with the cracking problem. If we back off the work the heads will last but we ain't going to be able to keep up with the Ford and Mopar combos.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Let me rephrase; I never said the 11, 15 and 18 degree heads are approved.

As I said in an earlier post, the proposed rule reads, "Aftermarket iron heads permitted in CS."

Not having language that says they must be NHRA Accepted cylinder heads opens the rule for interpretation.

Not having such language, is an open invitation for someone to show up with Pro Topline 11, 14 or 18 degree castings or the RHS 14 degree castings. Then the Ford and Mopars will never have a chance.

What will happen if a racer shows up with any cast iron aftermarket head if the rule remains as written?

Will NHRA toss the racer and tell them their heads are illegal because they are not accepted? How would the engine builder or racer know when there is not a published list? Many racers and engine builders have been burned by accepting a phone call statement and were told to go ahead and do it and later get tossed by tech.

In my line of business, having such clarification in writing, is called Objective Evidence; a document that states facts, other information or a record that can be used as evidence for compliance.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

A better question would be what will happen if a racer shows up at a points meet with "any" cast iron aftermarket head and goes rounds? A worse scenario would be that same racer either setting the record or winning the event. Then what happens?

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Well now we have the proper replacement NHRA approved SS/CS heads

DART 10710040PF
DART 10220010


NHRA link http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/N...edProducts.pdf

Re: 2015 Rules
 

Larry, we can just bag it for a while like someone I know and we will be right back where we started, you understand that I know.

Re: 2015 Rules
 

With 230cc as cast intake ports and 49cc chamber, the Dart 10710040PF cylinder head should be a good head. With its CSA, the right head porter should be able to get 340+ CFM's.