Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Short answer to your question above is yes because it doesn't give that combo any performance advantage over my combo. The weight classification will only affect the natural class and what other two classes they can run. The HP factor stays the same.

My combo was affected by the change, but I am still able to run the same class as before. I just cannot go any higher or quicker classes at this time.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Clearly a lot to unpack on this issue, but this example and a few others are great examples of how some combos just got lucky depending on how you view it.

I would expect anyone running a Pontiac GTO with a LS would appreciate the weight loss that the Camaro got somehow.

I think now that the shock and awe has hit over this topic there will have to be some process that works and makes sense, even if it is a shipping weight with a plus or minus variance of some sort.

Clearly ,there were decades of deals made here rather than a process that could be understood by all.

Hopefully some good comes out of this transparency. So many say and I agree that one of the key responsibilities of a sanctioning body is to apply rules in a clear and consistent manner.

At least this is an attempt to apply process.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

It does give the combo an advantage that it can run in a class that it shouldn't be allowed to run if the shipping weight is not correct. I'm not claiming to be a shipping weight expert.... but it helps the entire LT1 combo avoid heads-up runs and HP adjustments. If it's not an advantage, then why not just go to GT rules?

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

This argument goes back to 2009 when I purchased one of the very first BIW Camaros. There was some heated discussion about the shipping weight. The gentleman at Chevrolet would not listen and submitted the 2010 Camaro at around 3,800 lbs. without driver.

At that time, nobody had really done anything with one of these cars. Since I knew that Chevrolet wanted to build the COPO, I tried to get them to work with me to come up with an NHRA accepted rear suspension. My emails went unanswered.

In 2011 I purchased a zero option 1 SS Camaro. It weighed around 3600 lbs. minus driver. At the PRI Show I crawled under the COPO and measured the rear suspension. I then went to Bruce at NHRA and worked with him to make it legal for the 2010 Camaro. I went home and built it. All the time sharing with Bruce.

Before I got the car finished the whole COPO thing happened...

In 2015 I ordered two new 2016 cars. I decided to park the 2012 because of it's unique history. That left the 2014. I reached out to Chevrolet about putting all the Camaros in the guide. They settled on the 2015.

With all of the knowledge gained in those years it was obvious that a 2015 Camaro built within the current rules for Stock Eliminator would weigh around 2,800 lbs without driver. That's 1,100 lbs. from what you want and 800 lbs. from the 2012 car that I owned!! The decision was made to keep the ballast to no more than 500 lbs.

That is the way the 2015 Camaro got to that weight.

If the NHRA wants new cars in the Class guide, they have to make a weight concession for all of the stuff that can legally be removed.

OK, that's my version of history. One day I'll share my story on the LS3 engine specs......

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Ya know, you've brought up a good point and one that VERY few Racers know about. I doubt that many Techs even know this.

4:2 Ballast
Maximum amount of removable AND/OR permanent ballast, unless otherwise stated under Class Requirements, is 500 pounds.

I've had discussions with a few Racers over the years, mainly Fox body FFFFord racers who have told me that they have more weight than that to get to legal wt.
(I'm not picking on Fox body FFFFord combos, just trying to make a point)

When you race a FWD combo this gets to be an issue in a hurry!

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Then why can you run an LT1 in a 1998 Camaro Z28????

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

A question that has been being asked since 1998!

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Please explain the bolded part. How does it help the entire combo avoid heads-up runs and HP adjustments? There are a lot of fast cars in A through E. The 2015 VIN Camaro and LS1 Vettes come to mind plus many others IE Larry's combo. There are a lot of them out there.

It appears to me that this aspect hasn't changed one bit. Another question. Do you think the LT1 automatic combo needs another HP adjustment added to it?

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

And yet, when it's convenient for them, the manufacturers "manipulate" the weights and NHRA goes right along with them! Case-in-point,

2019 Challenger 1320 #3399 8.23 a nice natural A car that can make AA/A/B

2017 Challenger Hellcat #4500 7.50 natural AA car that can make A

Same car, #1100 difference between the two? It couldn't just be that Mopar was picking-and-choosing classes could it?

Larry, maybe you could ask your Mopar buddys about this (and your hood) and I'll find out about that .525 FFFFord cam.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

This is a real easy one to explain so I’ll tackle it! Firebird can run SS/HA, Camaro can’t! So when they race each other, let’s say in the final of a national event, or a must win round in a points race, they won’t race heads up! Therefore, neither will have to lean on their combo, which is the same in both cars, to secure that all important round win! So they just race each other in bracket mode and continue on with the same factor. Allen, is that a good explanation???

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

I see your point, but I was referring to stock and the fact there are a lot of LT1 combos competing in the classes I referenced. It seems to me that leaving some of them whether I agree with the carve out or not actually expands the possibility of HP adjustments which effects the entire combo no matter class chosen.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Bingo.

Edited to add: I'm not asking for changes in HP ratings. I'm working on my stuff like you all told me to do.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

My Drag Pak has been sitting in the same spot since 2010. So, I can't offer anything but opinion on this!

The 2019 Challenger 1320 looks, to me, to be where I would expect it to run.

The Hellcat is one of those combinations that I will be shocked if anyone actually builds one!!

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Billy the .525 cam is the 427/425 the .527/.527 is the mystery cam not listed in AMA sheets for the 428/360/335 engine.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

My point being, how can two cars that are basically the same (body/chassis, hemi engine/trans/rear) be separated by 1100 pounds in weight other than the Hellcat needing to weigh 4500 lbs. to make it into Stock Eliminator?

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Ya know, Yac and I don't have these problems with our odd-ball, POS stuff.
Maybe WE'RE not the crazy ones!

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Bryan - As being one of the guys running a Firebird in those days here is the poop.They 'allowed' the using of LT1's because of an engine shortage at GM - I myself could not receive one until way into 1989 .

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

This has been discussed before.

https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...light=Camshaft

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Larry is well aware of this! I believe his point is if NHRA is attempting to right the ship on all their bad policy decisions then they need to look at all and this is just one (big one)of many!!!

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Sorry Larry, I did not mean to speak for you so straighten me out if I misspoke

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Its still in the guide....

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Now that this "bad policy decision" (.527 cam) has been allowed to happen and for decades, how would you "right the ship"? In the case of shipping weights, nothing much changes. Maybe the class and index but not the engine's ability to make power. How would/could they "fix" the HP factor? Would you agree that the combo should get a HP reduction? It's not like changing out one cold-air hood for another.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

(.527 cam) has been allowed to happen and for decades, how would you "right the ship"

You can't ! Like it or not It's NHRA 's game and they will do what they want

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

I get that and did know that, i was just referring to the debate as to why the Pontiac was able to run it compared to the Camaro, which was an actual car. Since the Pontiac was a "paper car" it was allowed to run the LT1. The Camaro is not a "paper car" so why is it allowed to run an engine that was not offered with that year and model???

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

In the early days of Super Stock, lots of stuff took place between NHRA and the factories via a phone call or a letter.

My understanding is that a version of the 427, C8AX-6250-C hydraulic camshaft, with the adjustable 1.76 rocker arms with 0.527" lift was approved by NHRA in 1968 for use on the Stock Eliminator 428 CJ Mustangs by a letter issued by Ford.

There was a lot that took place behind the scenes, including the so-called, Canadian, SK cylinder heads, developed by Bruce Sizemore and as shared on the following link:

https://www.428cobrajet.org/straight...canadian-heads

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

So the 69 Camaro 350 255hp cars get the cowl hood back?

Before NHRA took it away they were allowed on those combos since 1969

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Oh no they weren't!

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Besides changes in shipping weights has NHRA listed a form for the deletion of engine combos and the refactoring of engines some where? Similar to what they do with end of year HP adjustments. Good Times

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Ford did not submit the .527 cam to NHRA as a Legal replacement cam for the 67-70 Shelby GT 500, the Manufacturer did.
NHRA made the decision to allow all 428CJ cars to use the cam.

Shelby American sales brochure listed quite a few options on this car other than a camshaft.

Have a great day, could be your last.

RJ

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

I just downloaded the classification guide for my car (‘56 Chev) and got the old version. The one that I downloaded last night was the new one. Seems like the shipping weight review is a work in progress?

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

RJ Sledge
And Shelby American was the MFG...???
Ford just supplied the partial cars & parts???

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

https://www.nhraracer.com/content/ge...439&zoneid=132


Shipping weight "corrections" postponed.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

If Shelby put the .527/.527 cam in their cars so be it. Allowing it to be used in all 428 mustang or mercury is wrong. Something in rule book about factory produce and in the hands of the general public.

Lets put the Z28 can in all the SBC, it fits.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Larry,
I want the Z-28 optional cam and Cross Ram intake that was supposed to come in the trunk, when ordered, and be dealer installed... let's not forget & The cowl hood for it...

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Well that didn’t last long.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

The word " posponed " makes me believe its not gone forever.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Yes the NHRA can giveth and they can take away!! My point is there are so many legitimate "AUDITS" NHRA could do to fix all kinds of combos that should never been allowed. They started with shipping weights and when that is fixed will they move on to other so called audits??? My guess is no, but they should.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

Sure! We will take the Mr Norms demon then. 340 with six pack or the optional Paxton super charger! Sounds fair.

Re: Access to AMA Shipping Weights?
 

I can guarantee its not gone forever.