Re: index lowering
 

I get the part of not wanting to lowering indexs by two tenths to help newbies. But making changes to hp because you can't run as fast as your competitor ain't cool. Either work on your combination or run the same combo that is the fastest. No one stopping you from buying or building the best for the class.

Re: index lowering
 

I love the guys who piss and moan about Stock and Super Stock being performance based, wanting more heads ups, points for records, qualifying posifion, against ?shoe polish racing, etc, but are against lowering the indexes! Make up your mind, would you!

Re: index lowering
 

And everybody would be racing a Camaro! (I've got a couple of them left in the garage somewhere....Hmmm)

Re: index lowering
 

You've proven there are plenty of combo's that go fast if your smart enough to recognize the potential. And willing to put in the work.

Re: index lowering
 

But not all combos have the potential of others no matter how much time and money is thrown at them.
NHRA (at some point) needs to try and understand that not every Racer that they are dealing with is as "hardcore" as you or the Worners or me for that matter.

Re: index lowering
 

Bring back proper tech and tear downs for a few years and then we will see who is really fast and needs HP or who is not playing by the rules...

Re: index lowering
 

Yes some combo's aren't great and that's where doing your homework before getting into the "pool" pays off. I don't think everyone .7 under there index is what Wally had in mind.

Re: index lowering
 

In all of the tear downs that have been performed over the last several years, I really can't remember any very serious infractions being found in either Stock or Super Stock. The rules are so liberal and the technology is so good that I don't see the need to get busted.

Re: index lowering
 

And I agree with that but different Racers race what they race for different reasons. Not all are necessarily looking for the best combo/class and I have always felt that there needs to be room for them too. Maybe I'm wrong but would it be a good thing for NHRA to exclude these Racers? Gary Hampton comes to mind (no offense Gary!).
At this point in my career (?) it wouldn't bother me much if NHRA did away with every class from L down and the FWD stuff. I'd be racing something. But at what point-in-time does NHRA turn it's back on the average Joe and become a sport/hobby for the elite only?

Re: index lowering
 

I agree also with everyone have a place to race but don't complain your combo isn't the fastest when you have options. You want to run that combo ,live with what that combo can go or spend the time and money. I don't want the indexes lowered but don't penalize the people that want and work to go fast.

Re: index lowering
 

Let's go back to national records being the indexes. Separate the men (women) from the boys (girls)!

I have my rain coat on now, let the crying begin!

Re: index lowering
 

Glenn, I got no issue competing with legitimately factored engine combinations, maybe you missed the absurdly, preposterously factored line in my post. Cause anyone capable of simple math can clearly pick those out, and I know you to be very capable. Given the current state of art I can compete with any F/SA combination, what I can’t do is compete with D/SA & E/SA combinations allowed to run as an F/SA by virtue of corrupted factoring. Making us do so is not cool, one might even say it’s down right larcenous!

Re: index lowering
 

The fundamental issue is the lack tear-downs and tech. I?m new to this but I believe the whole Idea of getting HP adjustments has been a foundational part of class racing. Having a standardized system that corrections are based off seems better than the opinion option of days gone by. In my opinion the real flaw is there is no option to have a correction reversed based on the current average of the combo. If the trigger involved a tear down to verify the legitimacy of the combo. There would be no need to reduce. That will never happen again or be an option.

I understand there are people out there much smarter and work way harder than I do to be fast. They should have no issue with a hp correction. They will continue to be smarter and harder working than the rest of us slow lazy guys. I will continue to work on my junk and get better. It would be easier to simply change combos and beat my chest about my intelligence. But then again I?m just a dumb farm kid with a combo that has been obliterated. I choose the path of perseverance and stupidity.

Re: index lowering
 

Brian..LT1 and LS1 running against all the big block combos! I work on my junk too as much as budget will allow. I'm not as fast as you yet but if indexes get chopped .3 across the board...I might just own a couple of over priced bracket cars.

Re: index lowering
 

I?ve reviewed a few final qualifying sheets from this years races. There are not very many cars that can?t run .2 under in SS and .3 under in Stock. On the ones I?ve looked at, including the 128 qualified field at Maple Grove, take out the cars that lift during qualifying and broke, the number is a very small percentage of Stock and SS racers that would be over the index after those reductions. So I don?t see the argument of losing a bunch of racers if the indexes got lowered.

Re: index lowering
 

But why lose any?
What overall good for the class will it do?

Re: index lowering
 

I would agree with you using either coast or the south. It would not affect as many racers with your environmental conditions. If I was smart enough to post an image I would show you qual sheets up here in the heat that a 1/4 of the field would be out of luck. Environmental conditions we run in are just different.

Re: index lowering
 

Maple Grove was near sea level all weekend where as Numidia is typically near 4,000' all weekend and consider Stock does their qualifying 9-10am, that same car can't run that number at 4pm in July.

Re: index lowering
 

Pretty simple actually.

Leave the indexes where they are and drop all the trigger points by 2 tenths. First one starts at -1.2 instead of -1.0 and so on. That way the fast guys can go up to that much quicker before being looked at or given H.P. Leave it like that for a year and see. Possible it may need to be dropped another 10th or more.

Currently the people close to getting hit are always lifting at 1000' and/or on the brakes or tuning their car(s) accordingly. Sounds almost like S/G not running trying to run under 9.90. Must be awful boring when the car can run quicker but you rarely(T & T, National Open, Bracket Race, Indy) get a chance to show what it has without getting penalized. And the worry on the way to get your time slip if you unfortunately went just a bit too fast. Can definitely see their point.

As far as when NHRA collects the data not sure on that one. -.65 to -.85 is not the answer though. Not a high or low enough range.

If they were to lower the indexes by .20 the fast people would then tune their cars to run back as close to the trigger point as they were before. Problem not solved and back in the same boat.

Not sure about the other divisions but D6 has a lot of Class Racers that will not be running in 15-20 years. Tons of grey out there. Can't see it getting any better as how many young fellas have the money or the time and patience to run a Class car. If we don't get a good amount of new blood running S/SS its not looking promising up in the Pacific Northwest.

Re: index lowering
 

I don't see anyway lowering the indexes will increase car count and that is what we need.

I also think it will deter new racers from getting into Stock and Super Stock.

We need replacements for old guys like me that have aged out

Bill Lamb

Re: index lowering
 

If all these guys who can run a second under in any condition would be willing to tear down, including pulling a piston and a rod for any run more than a second under. We will see how many cars can run a second under in the middle of summer.

Re: index lowering
 

Gardiner, you said two different things. I am not sure I understand your
point.

J.R.

Re: index lowering
 

Again, virtually everyone that wants the indexes lowered are the same people that complain the AHFS doesn't work! Lowering the indexes is taking another chance away for it to work, just like raising the automatic hit to -1.30 was and all the other changes that have been made. Let's just say it out loud the guys that are real fast don't want the system to work for obvious reasons..... I can tell you from experience it's no fun adding weight!

Re: index lowering
 

Gardiner, you said two different things. I am not sure I understand your
point.
My point is there are some fast cars that can run over a second under at will, but have to slow them down so they don?t hit their combo. They are the ones who want to drop the indexes.2. While their is no doubt their are some very smart people working very hard on their combos, it is no secret that the significant increase in performance over the last several years has a lot to do with the lack of tech.

Re: index lowering
 

The fastest race cars usually have had their motors torn down many times.

Re: index lowering
 

Smh!

Re: index lowering
 

Does anyone know when the indexes were last adjusted?

Re: index lowering
 

I think it was 2009. The adjustment was 3/10's.

J.R.

Re: index lowering
 

I looked at Numidia from this year. There were 6 cars that were .204 under and below. One is a stocker running SS, 2 or 3 lift during qualifying and 2 others were having problems. The guy I raced was one of them. Qualified with a 10.55 and ran in the 20?s against me first round. Again, the number that would be over the index on an all out run if .2 was taken off the indexes is minimal. Say what you want about overall car counts. Quotas at national events are almost alway over, turning racers away, and the LODRS races in most areas have over 50 cars in each category.

Re: index lowering
 

I call BS on this one.

Re: index lowering
 

A few observations from a currently former competitor, who may or may not be able to return, due to health, and the resulting financial issues.


First, yes, everyone should have a place to race. However, everyone can't, and shouldn't, run Stock or Super Stock. No class, or even sport, can be everything to everyone. That's a recipe for disaster.


Second, anyone can see that NHRA has no real interest in increasing the car counts in either Stock or Super Stock. Some individuals at/in NHRA probably do, but corporate NHRA doesn't care.


Third, changing the triggers is probably the best possible "common ground" solution.


Fourth, you're never going to make everyone happy, and probably shouldn't even try. Actually, if you've pissed everyone off at least a little, and no one too much, you've probably gotten it about right.


Fifth, you're never going to get a "level playing field". No two humans are the same on a day to day basis, so what they accomplish won't be. And some combinations are never going to go very fast, some stuff just doesn't have any real potential.



Sixth, some people are willing to spend time and money to go fast, some aren't. It gets prohibitively expensive to try to keep money out with rules, and often to keep effort out with rules.


Finally, some people are going to choose slow combinations in lower classes, and they're not going to be willing to spend the money on aftermarket pistons, camshafts, etc, never mind power train (transmission, converter, etc) stuff to go fast. You're NEVER going to make them equal to or happy with the guys running fast stuff and building high end engines and transmissions.


Over my 45 plus years as a motorsports enthusiast, and competitor in several motorsports, I have seen attempts to make those sports and classes "fit everyone" absolutely destroy the sports over the long run. I've seen fast growing sports permanently stunted, and seen entire sports nearly disappear, with tracks closing, spectators leaving, and competitors quitting. It just doesn't work. Stock and Super Stock are probably the most hard core sportsman classes in drag racing, along with Competition Eliminator. The "casual competitor" is never going to really fit in, or be happy. Myself, I'm sidelined specifically because I can't be competitive right now in any way that I care to compete. I'm on the side lines helping people and trying to rebuild.


Y'all can take all that, or leave it, for whatever it's worth, or not worth.

Re: index lowering
 

Excellent post Alan

Re: index lowering
 

Alan, You nailed it. As Jim, Said Excellent post.


Mark Madison

Re: index lowering
 

I feel attacked :D

I deliberately went with a slow car, in a low class, with moderate potential. Don't have to worry about heads up, bullet proof th350, hardy rotating assembly and valve train. I have no issue with people wanting to go fast, knock yourself out. If my combo takes a hit, I like that a whole lot less, but that's what I signed up for.

We (slow ppl) don't want the class to come to us, but we don't want it to run away either.

Re: index lowering
 

Nope, not attacking anyone. just stating the facts. I've never said anyone wasn't welcome, just that no one is immune to the reality. And the reality is that both Stock and Super Stock are based on performance, and that being the case, that's where the focus must remain for the classes to survive, much less thrive.

Re: index lowering
 

No, I'm with you 100%, just being facetious.

Re: index lowering
 

Hey Alan,

11 weeks plus June 2, 2022 waiting in line for NHRA Accepted Replacement Pistons Forged units from Ross and wrapped w/ custom ringsets made by Total Seal in all 4 holes,...Check. Aftermarket Cam...Check. Holley EFI being installed now (it wasn't that long ago that NHRA added the Terminator X to the accepted parts list), 1 big change at a ttimeI can do on my budget AND still keep making events and race too, plus I plan many more upgrades over time.

I just happen to be the slowest guy in the category currently (especially at elevation), if it wasn't me...It would be someone else.

I want fast guys to go as fast as they can possibly go in the other lane, I just want to be in the lane next to them doing the same.

The AHFS is their enemy, not me. And on the subject of an HP hit (due to the AHFS and engine family rules therein my specific 99hp combo was hit in June 2003 with 6hp (6?25.00lbs=150 extra lbs.) An A/SA taking a 6 hp hit=24 lbs. Extra.

The AHFS was instituted in what year? Is that important? It may just be as there is an engine family rule...Once an engine family has been hit with HP, is is no longer eligible for a reduction.

The combining of the FWD classes have caused an outlier concerning engine family hits as I see it. And that affected my combo huge. It is what it is...but it is not for lack of attempting to go faster.

1 step at a time, with lots of hard work. And it isn't for lack of expending labor or dollars. I have only been back at this 14 months racing it this time around, and 18 months prepping the car before that.

Not all slow guys are sitting still and doing nothing. And not all are also wrenching on a comp entry at the same time racing a stock entry to stay busy at the track because there is so much free time, and they know they assembled theirs themselves and breakage is not much of an issue. Not a complaint...I love doing it. I don't race a second car, so I get the experience and help another (Scott McClay), compete also that needs crew help. Cannot race that comp entry without a crew.

HP hits in the category are nowhere near eqitable across the classes top to bottom period.

Re: index lowering
 

If your 99hp combo was hit with 6hp (is it 99 now or 105) it doesn’t matter it is about 6.25% which according to AHFS is a run 1.350-1.399 under. A similar run in my A stock car results in +25hp or 200lb. (If I’m doing my math right)

Not saying your +6hp was right or wrong but the comparison is off a bit.

Re: index lowering
 

Gary,
My position was not that the AHFS is perfect, it isn't. Nothing man made is.


It probably should be "graduated" a bit, top to bottom. I doubt they'll take the time and make the effort.


Nothing wrong with what you're doing, or how. I don't think anything in my post states that.




Mike,
Thanks for doing the math.

Re: index lowering
 

?IF? indexes are lowered will the association racer groups such as Midwest Class Racers follow suit? Or will they keep the door open for the folks that still desire racing their S/SS based cars that can?t make the ?new? indexes?