Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes
Just to clarify, I am echoing my friend that I help with his car. He runs one of the faster C/SA Firebirds and almost always leaves last. We both view it as a fairness issue and in most cases could hurt him rather than help.
Don |
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Jeff I did bring that point up. Please refer to my last post. The faster car wouldn't see the red or the scoreboard light up. |
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The only way the "worst redlight rule" could work would be to completely obscure the reaction time affect on the outcome of the timed-run competition between two vehicles.
That is; to eliminate the Red light at the base of the tree, eliminate the Win light activated by a false start on the lane marquee at the Finish line, and program the computer to indicate the winner after calculating who crossed the finish line first without going under their dial, and didn't redlight worse than their competitor. The result would be all-out runs by both vehicles with the traditional top-end wha-wha of the throttle and brake-scrubbing ....more fun. |
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I keep saying I'm not going to post on this any more because I hate being attacked for just expressing my opinion, but I can't remain silent.
Bill D., I agree with you 100%. Maybe it's not a big deal because it effects a very small number of races, but if you're one of the ones effected, it is a big deal. |
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Maybe its just me but most of the cars out there have serveral dfferent engine combos they can run....Just put a faster combo in the car you have and start leaving second.
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Talking about clean trees.............
Both drivers have a "dirty" tree If the difference between the 2 cars is LESS than 1.5 seconds------- Both drivers have a "clean" tree If the difference between the 2 cars is MORE than 1.5 seconds------- Just sayin' |
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You can't start listing advantages of slower car, faster cars, more aerodynamic cars, better hooking cars (station wagons) or cars with any number of advantages/disadvantages because there's no end to that sort of thing.
The basic truth about the current situation is that it is unfair to the first car to leave, whether it's an A Stocker or a W stocker. IF he redlights, he has just deprived the second car to l;eave of HIS chance to redlight... maybe worse than the other car did. Unequal red light jeopardy., Somebody who supports this arrangement tell me what is fair about this? PLEASE don't talk about clean trees, dirty trees, traction problems of high horsepower cars, or the difficulty of dialing a slow car; there are enough inequities we can't do anything about to go around... Just stick to the facts about the situation I described in the paragraph I started with "The basic truth..." I have yet to hear anyone say what is unwoekable about this worse red light system There are folks like this guy: The only way the "worse redlight rule" could work would be to completely obscure the reaction time affect on the outcome of the timed-run competition between two vehicles." Why? The race is over before thay will see that information; how does it afffect the leave? We're talking abiut red ight, here. "That is; to eliminate the Red light at the base of the tree, eliminate the Win light activated by a false start on the lane marquee at the Finish line, and program the computer to indicate the winner after calculating who crossed the finish line first without going under their dial, and didn't redlight worse than their competitor. The result would be all-out runs by both vehicles with the traditional top-end wha-wha of the throttle and brake-scrubbing ....more fun. " You have taken a simple one-step change in procedure and turned it into an epic. Why?? |
Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes
You can't start listing advantages of slower car, faster cars, more aerodynamic cars, better hooking cars (station wagons) or cars with any number of advantages/disadvantages because there's no end to that sort of thing.
The basic truth about the current situation is that it is unfair to the first car to leave, whether it's an A Stocker or a W stocker. IF he redlights, he has just deprived the second car to leave of HIS chance to redlight... maybe worse than the other car did. Unequal red light jeopardy., Can somebody who supports this arrangement tell me what is fair about this? PLEASE don't talk about clean trees, dirty trees, traction problems of high horsepower cars, or the difficulty of dialing a slow car, or "That's the way we' ve always done it.": there are enough inequities we can't do anything about, to go 'round... Just stick to the facts about the situation I described in the paragraph I started with "The basic truth..." I have yet to hear anyone say what is unworkable about this worse red light system Then, there's this guy, who says: "The only way the "worse redlight rule" could work would be to completely obscure the reaction time affect on the outcome of the timed-run competition between two vehicles." Why? The race is over before thay will see that information; how does it afffect the leave? We're talking about red lights, here. He then, says, "That is; to eliminate the Red light at the base of the tree, eliminate the Win light activated by a false start on the lane marquee at the Finish line, and program the computer to indicate the winner after calculating who crossed the finish line first without going under their dial, and didn't redlight worse than their competitor. The result would be all-out runs by both vehicles with the traditional top-end wha-wha of the throttle and brake-scrubbing ....more fun. " The win light is activated when the computer decides that a worse red light has occurred. Long before the finish line is crossed... You have taken a simple one-step change in procedure and turned it into an epic. Why?? |
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I do not think the first red light is unfair. It is just part of being the slow car. Probably the most important thing about the double red light is that it happens less than 1% of the time. Also NHRA is not going to do anything about it. The horse is dead.
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Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes
Let me preface this post by saying that I've never made a single lap in NHRA Stock or SS. That being said, I am going to attempt to compete in Stock in 2011 and I'm building a natural AA/S car so any changes of this rule could/will affect me directly.
To *ME*, IMHO this rule is unfair and needs to be fixed. It would be a simple computer software change (I believe anyway?) and would right a long standing wrong. I thought about any possible reason for it to be left as is and can't really come up with one. Nor have I seen any of those that oppose the change offer any reason other than "that's how it's been for years", which in my eyes makes no sense. I wasn't going to comment as a never-ran but figured I'd throw my two cents out there FWIW. |
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As Tony said, it ain't gonna happen, may as well give it a rest.
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Nobody deserves a free ride like that. If that seems fair to you, I have some beachfront property in Arizona I'd like to talk to you about.... and, a bridge! :) Thanks to all who've commented! |
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Bill I know you are not going give up. I still race and this is something I could care less about.There are way more important things in drag racing than the first or worse red light.
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Tony, you are one of my all-time heroes. You have been there RACING the whole way. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you. I ran a sedan delivery with a hydro back in the mid-sixties and I'd see your name in the results all the time. I have always been a Stock Eliminator fan, when I wasn't racing. But, it seemed,you never quit... you were always there. You EARNED my undying respect over many, many years.
Ed Fernandez also has earned my respect by fighting the good fight for years, now, with a weapon of choice that not many would choose. He's going to win a big one, one of these days (He's come mighty close, recently) and I, for one, won't be the slightest bit surprised when he does. He can drive his *** off, when he needs to! Having said that, I'll just say that when it comes to this red light bidness, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll quit ranting about this when somebody, anybody, can demonstrate to me why it's not a fairer, more equitable system than what we've been living with for the last 37 years. I simply don't see any reason NOT to change it... Keep racing, and pray that some guy with a quicker car doesn't beat you with a worse red light. That may not bother you, but it would irritate the HELL out of me... even to see it happen to you or Ed! Keep on keepin' on!!!! :) |
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Whats the punchline is this reality next year worst redlight or just someone dreaming this up???
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Just dreamers...And when all is right in the rulebook they'll all be racing...sure
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Lol good one Jeff some of these guys should work on a novel at least they could make a profit :)
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When you're in the final for the money, and your first-to-leave redlight is less than your opponent's, I hope you guys still think this is hilarious when he collects what SHOULD have been your winnings....
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I realize that the NHRA may not do anything about it, but they have just shown that they will gleefully address issues that don't seem to the the top of current list of problems. I don't remember being at the track once in the last couple of years and heard a racer say "Gee, if they would just bring back the 55's....." Not that I don't like that they are because I feel they are neat cars, but I won't put anything past Glendora.
I still haven't seen one argument for keeping the redlight rule and inequality at the starting line that I can get behind. It is simply unfair to only recognize the first, not the worst. That is the equivalent of saying the rule of the first breakout looses versus the worst breakout. If you feel the first redlight should only loose, then why wouldn't you support only the first breakout? Of course, that is another change and it would be stupid to do so. But it is no different that the current rule at the starting line as it stands. Don |
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The main reason I got the new Dodge is the first red looses.
Gee why else would I spend all this money? Dan Wilson |
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Chad, you have an excellent point. When I go bracket racing I am the slower car the majority of the time. So, I learned if
I go red I go home. So, bottom line just don't go red. Nobody says anything about when I faster car is spotting a slower car by 5 seconds. |
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How could you know, if he never has the same chance to redlight as you did? Tell me that... please. No free rides.... |
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BOTH cars need to have an equal chance to redlight, I think.... otherwise it's an unfair system that fails to put both cars at risk of a redlight, and if that's a good thing, please tell me what's good about such an inequity. To say "Just don't redlight" is like saying, "Just don't lose." Unrealistic... IMHO. Still haven't seen posted here a good, logical reason not to change this (like they changed to a worse breakout rule, years ago.) Thanks for your comments!!! |
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As a typically faster car, I think it is UNFAIR that I have to sit there watching your car go down the track heading for mid track by the time my light says "go"! My God, some of these cars are so damn slow my clutch pedal leg is shakin', sweat is pouring out of my helmet, my thumb is quiverin' against the line-lock button and my hear rate is over the reline.
And for that 2-4 second wait, my throttle is over 5K, my water and oil temps are climbin', the rockers might have lost their adjustment (because roller rockers would ruin Stock!!!) and my slicks may have gained pressure as the sun beat down on them awhile longer. Ad to that the barometric pressure probably changed a few tenths!!! The planet probably rotated a measurable amount while I wait for my go light. And then once I got going, assuming I didn't red light with all that wait / worry / anticipation, I have to catch the slow car that has a 1/8 mile head start on me and work out a strategy to overtake him with a 25 MPH difference and use twice the braking power to avoid a break-out. geez, the more I think about it, we should demand all heads up runs. That is THE ONLY WAY TO BE FAIR. Makes sense to me! :D |
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I think both cars should leave at the same time. Just think...same start...run off a dial...first red loses...flat out to the finish line...best package wins...AND...no braking (heck if you touched the brakes you would probably lose anway)...no game playing...NO WHINERS!
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If you are so adamant about changing rules, why not just DQ both cars if they both redlight. Neither one should deserved to win anyway.
Seriously though, there is no way the redlight rule is ever going to change. Give it a rest and move on so real rule changes can be discussed. |
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BTW thanks for dropping that converter off to Pat yesterday. Gonna try it out tomorrow night |
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That's why you get a reaction time on your slip. I gotta a better idea ........... Don't show nothing but your et and speed like the old days. If they were not showing reaction times now this would not even be a subject matter. I vote leave it alone and i am one of the slower cars out there. Maybe someone will come up with a new dragracing game with worst red light and we can PLAY that. Just my -.02 worth
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Back in the old days (when you could get 4 or 5 time runs. We would stage the car at an angle. Then straighten it out till we got a red then add just a bit. It worked back then Buster didn't like it much, I remember once Jerry Stein was staged so crooked he was pointing at the tree. Not many people back then knew once the first car redlit the second car could leave at any point in the tree and the lights would keep coming down to a green. We shook a lot of people up by leaving on the second (out of 5) amber. The catching the car and just blipping it to stay ahead. Rumors abounded that we could run well into the tens LOL. Without those rumors we would not have won Indy in 1980 |
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[QUOTE=Chad Rhodes;220089]exactly. If I go red, I wasn't on my game and deserve to go home, whether it be first round or final round. If he red lit worse than me............oh well I gave him one. Had I not been red I would have gotten the freebie.
^^^^^^^ Thats a great attitude too have :) |
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HAHA Jeff Lee your post was classic! I definitely know the feeling of the left leg going numb, the right thumb feeling like the line lock button is piercing through it, etc. Why are you bringing the Rs up before your top yellow comes on though?
Anyway, I have to disagree with you and stand behind my original post. I also think Bill D is making perfect sense here! And to the modest fellow who says "I shouldn't have went red so I deserved to lose" is being a little too modest. Here is the best I can do, here it is in stat terms and I promise you will not hear anything out of me on this topic anymore. We will use discrete probability and analyze our sample space of four possible outcomes: both drivers green, first guy green and second guy red, first guy red and second guy green, both drivers red. In order for an event to be a "fair" event in the world of probability, all possible outcomes but possess equal probability, in this case each of the 4 outcomes should have a probability of 1/4 or .25. With our current system, the first two scenarios possess a probability of .25 (Probability of first guy going green = .5 AND probability of second guy going green = .5 so we multiply these to get a probability of .25 for this outcome. Same calculation for second outcome) However, the third scenario possesses a probability of 1/2 or .5. (Probability of first guy going red = .5 AND probability of second guy going green = 1 since he/she has already won. Multiply these and we get .5). The probability of the last event is actually 0 because currently it can't happen and we revert to scenario 3. Since each outcome doesn't have the same probability, this event fails the "fair" event test. Conclusion: The first driver to leave is 25% more likely to lose the race on the starting line than the second driver. Sounds like an awful lot to me! Alright I'm a nerd, look what school has done to me..:eek: |
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Mr. Dedman, never give up on this argument: You ARE correct as is only a few others such as Mr. Ashley.
It is so inconceivable, that so many cannot see how this situation, that is fixable in a nano second with a software change, is so unfair. Imagine this change DID take place and no one was told about it. The first run at the Winternationals in 2011, and I’ll use the usual scenario that seems to be the only one that anyone understands, is an A/S and a V/S: And the V/S win light comes on. The A/S guy gets his time slip, and sees that the V/S car fouled by .005, and he, the A/S car, fouled by .007. The A/S car starts whining about how unfair it is for him to be the loser. When it’s pointed out to him that he fouled worse than the V/S guy, the A/S guy says so what…..the V/S guy fouled first. The A/S guy is then told that of course, if the V/S guy fouls, it’s going to be first. How is that unfair? How in the Hell is the V/S guy ever going to foul last against an A/S guy like you? How in the Hell is it unfair to expect BOTH cars to have to take a shot at the tree? The tree is a basic…a fundamental…a must. Those faster cars that win via a slower car fouling against you….you got a freebie…..a gimme…and you ought to be ashamed: You’re no better than someone on welfare that refuses to work for what they receive. You got something for nothing, only because technology wasn’t used properly. Sort of like someone NOT getting out of prison because DNA was not used. Next time I see a car win via a slower car foul, I believe I’m going to flip them the bird, and laugh. |
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Oh, and Bill, let me give you a short list of cars not to flip the bird to and laugh.
1) black AA/SA vette 2) purple I/SA camaro 3)any camaro with a tall guy in a black cowboy hat standing next to it, lol |
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Chilllllllllllllll pill they do make them
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This is NOT "rocket science." After all these hypothetical scenarios, and the conclusions that support the FACT that the present situation is NOT fair, never has been, and has sent many a car to the trailer when he should have won the round, it's abundantly clear that some people will argue with a gatepost, even when they can't supply ANY legitimate reasons for their position. They just want to argue.
Some say "Life is not fair." Of course it's not... and racing is not fair, but it needs to be as fair as we can make it. Why do you think NHRA Tech tosses cars out for valves that are a few THOUSANDTHS of an inch to big.... ot too small? Keeps voluminous technical records on carburetor part numbers, venturi size specs, and throttle bore sizes? Camshaft lift information??? So it will be a fair race... or, as fair as they can make it. But, I'm just a "whiner" because I want to change a rule that screws, or has the potential to screw virtually half the cars running. Any race that's not "heads-up" is a candidate for this unforunate event. So, if you think that you're a "good guy" for not complaining when a car that leaves after you, has a red light infraction that is worse than yours, I have news... you might not mind losing like that, but keeping quiet about it is just one way of telling NHRA that the first red light system is okay, and that's all they need to leave it alone. The others (and, their numbers are growing,) who can see the built-in inequities that are part and parcel of the first red light system, and want it changed, now have a steeper uphill battle to get a worse redlight system in place. To use a very tired adage, you're either part of the solution, or you're part of the problem. But, the biggest problem is NHRA's inertia with stuff like this. It won't make them any money, so they have no initiative to fix it... so, in all likelihood, they won't. We're lucky that this bunch of Druids wasn't running NHRA back in the sixties, or we'd probably still have the "first breakout loses" rule... Would you guys like that??? |
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