Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Billy how did your meeting about the AMC stuff go with NHRA?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I see about 15 combos in the top 30 at the World Finals that could be built for under $20k.Maybe even 15k!!!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I give a sh!t. We're talking bogus performance here not the eliminator.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

The eliminator is what it is all about. Performance for the most part has little to do with the final out come of the eliminator.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Tony, it may be what it is all about for you but that is not the case for many of us.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Bruce, just spend $30,000 on your car in the right place, then it will be fast. I bet if you call Jeff Taylor and spend the money you could run with 95% of all b/sa cars in the county. The problem is most racers don't want to spend the big money it takes to run fast. They just want to bitc$ about how fast everyone else is. It costs money to run fast in the top classes, always has always will.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

The money I spend is money I have earned. I don't rely on family to support my racing. Secondly this discussion is about nhra giving the OEM's bogus HP numbers.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Bruce last time I checked I pay my own bills to. Yes I do race with family but everyone in our operation pulls there own weight. Like most family operations. My question to you is if you spent the money to run fast, your not much slower then newer cars in your class. I don't see guys like Kyle Ratcliff ( who has a 15 year old combo) who won class at INDY in C/SA bitc$ing. O that's right there to busy actually working on there car trying to improve it.

Mark your right Kevin Z has been beat heads up by a under factored 1967 400 Pontiac. So what dose he care if is old or new? Under factored is under factored new or old.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Charlie you need to get our here and correct a widely held belief that your father is paying all the bills. My car is a natural AA car and there is no amount of spending that can make up for the bogus gifts that nhra handed out to the OEM's.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Charlie came up to me at the fuel check and gave me a big ole hug. Nearly brings a tear to my eye as I reflect back. :eek:

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Dooood! What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I bitch and work on my car in relatively equal amounts. I find it makes for a pretty good balance.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Plus, you may be furry, but Charlie is better for the colder weather.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Bruce I work full time as a reginal sale manager for THI Corp out of Ann Arbor Mi which makes pick up truck accessories like bedrugs and tonnos. I do help my dad on our family farm with whatever time I have left and maybe race cars now and then if Karle doesn't have other plans for me.

That is my point Andrews car is 30 years old and your car is one of the fastest D/SA cars in the country. Because you work on it and spend money in the right places and with the right people.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Charlie,
Andrew and his father have worked very hard on their cars and have had great results. But they will be the first to admit that they are not in the same zip code with the new mustangs.

Glad to hear you are working so hard. So I guess your father isn't financing your racing after all.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I'm just saying there's plenty of time to complain along with working on our cars. Bruce's car has been 10.0s in A, not long ago that was really, really fast. I think it's fair to say he works on his car a bunch, and I bet it will be even faster next year.

Without all these, um, "discussions", what would we do to get through the winter?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Andrew, to avoid any confusion, my post above was for Charley. I have edited it by adding his name.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

It's funny Bruce 8 to 10 years ago you had a I/SA car that was a little under factored. You traveled the county beating people easily for class. Funny you never complained about HP back then. That's right you were winning then and now your not. Thats the difference.

Also Bruce if my dad wanted to finance myself or my brothers racing while we were in college that was his choice. If you can afford to help your kids out more power to you. I know I could not have afforded it 4 years ago. I bet Andrew feels the same way.

How many new cars fit into D/SA? I think that is a class dominated by old 1960's combos

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I do agree with that, I couldn't race without my dad at this point in my life.

The 352/363 Mustangs and the 360 Challengers, and it sounds like maybe a motor for a COPO. There is one 360 Challenger in division 3, and both of the 352 Mustangs I know of are out west, but that doesn't make them any less underfactored.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Charley,

Let's get a few facts straight. My car was a regular production car. Anybody with $18,000.00 could have built the same car and some did. I still owned and raced that car when I started the factory experimental thread on this site which was the first post about the bogus new cars. I have no problem with your father financing your racing but I do have a problem with you telling me how to invest money in my car when you are basically catching a free ride. I think your father deserves a lot of credit.

And this discussion is still about bogus HP factors on your car and others. No matter how hard you try to mix things up out here, it's not about me or my car. It's about nhra and the oem's cheating the very racers who have supported both the nhra and the oem's for more than 40 years. It's cut throat behavior.

You missed two very fast mustangs at Indy that did not win class. They were dominating the older cars but suffered issues before taking their respective classes. One of them was in D/SA. Check it out.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Andrew someone who gets beat by you heads up in D/SA could make the same argument( that you are under factored). So who decides what under factored is?

At the end of the day who won class in D/SA at Indy.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I'm a second generation racer myself and much of my father's contribution to my racing has been in sheer knowledge and tow vehicles. I would never have gotten into the sport without the help of my father and my brothers. Bruce, shame on you for repeatedly giving people crap because they have gotten help along the way. This is supposed to be a racing community and I understand that its winter and some people have nothing else better to do but making personal attacks against the younger generation because you feel NHRA has slighted you in some way, is childish. We're all just trying to have fun here at the drag strip and your negativity is toxic. I ran more races with my Corvette this year and last than you did with yours. I had 9 heads in the last two years and lost 2 of them (both of which were at Indy). I think its time for this Topic to die as the personal attacks are starting to get ridiculous.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Of course they can, but last year I lost twice in class or heads up, once to a 400 Pontiac and once to a 396/325. I don't think anyone out there believes I can go 1.70+ under like the 352 mustangs could go. Here's a quote from one for sale:

"The 2010 352 was never a passenger car motor. It was developed with race only parts and is more like a Super Stock motor.

Boss 302 Block (compare that to a short deck Bowtie block)
Aluminum High Port CNC’D Heads
Aluminum Intake Manifold (made by Edelbrock for Ford Racing)
Solid Roller Camshaft (LSM)
Crower Severe Duty Roller Lifters
Jesel Pro Series Shaft Mounted Rockers
Custom Diamond Pistons
Scat Pro Stock Forged 4340 I Beam Connecting Rods
Scat Forged 4340 Crankshaft
MSD Crank Trigger
Fabricated Deep Sump Oil Pan"

A motor with all that is rated 13 less than mine. There are plenty of older motors that are underfactored, but none even in the same zip code as this.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Really.... how do you decide whats under rated, LOOK AT THE SPEC. ON THESE NEW ENGINE COMBO'S COMPARED TO THE OLD STUFF, JUST NOT THAT HARD TO DO!!!!!!!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Writing on an Internet forum is not going to do anything about the situation. The only way for changes is to take the proposals, complaints, petitions, meetings to the people that can do something about it. I seriously doubt the top NHRA brass and advisors are sitting around reading Internet forums(although classracer.com is good) saying "you know what? This guy ---(insert name)--- really has a good idea, ---(insert name)--- really brought X, Y, Z to our attention."

I'm not saying everyone should be quiet about it. If its for venting purposes or even for some that feeds off Drama is one thing. But if a person really feels so strongly about it that it needs to be changed then it needs to be adressed with the people that can actually do something about it. Otherwise it is just a lot of huffing/puffing and waisted energy unless it makes a person feel better by getting it off their chest.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Shame on me? Who are you to be telling me that BS? Racing community? Repeatedly giving people crap for getting help along the way? You certainly have become an important little fellow. You don't dictate the terms of discussion out here. What nerve! I have not repeatedly beat on anybody for getting help along the way. I made it very clear that I did not like being told how to invest in my car by a person who was getting a free ride. The free ride thing must have struck a nerve for you. One other thing, this racing communtiy is tired of being taken advantage of by people who run these ringer cars down our throats. I remember you at SEMA fuming about these new cars and the next thing we know you are hooked up with the new cars and have completely changed your tune. It is you and people like you who are taking advantage of the racing community, not me. And there is no way in hell that your little a** is going to tell me to shut up.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Wow, now things are getting ugly in here.

I'm out

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I know the new cars are under factored. But that is why I built one. As racers we are also looking of an advantage over the competition.
But let's face it our sport was on a downward spiral. In 2007 membership for stk and ss was at a 15 year low. It needed some kind of shot in the arm to boost interest. I know some of you don't feel like I do, but putting these Comobs in with a soft HP sparked tons on interest and support from manufactures . And according to NHRA at PRI this year new membership is up over 250 members in SS and STK from 2007. You guys can taking all you want about HP but if there is no SS or STK what does it matter? HP well work itself out, it always does.






Kenny can you make a racer poll
Bruce should quit racing with NHRA
Bruce should stay racing with NHRA
Let's let the racing community of class racer vote

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Well do me a favor and put a 352 with an auto in your car and help expedite the process, hell I'll even drive it for you.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Andrew you build or buy the motor you can use my car.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

I'll see if I can find any generous donors to make it happen!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Cute Charley, but even if I decide to quit someday it won't change what you and your buddies have done to Stock.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Some of you guys are making look like Dale Carnagy. Thanks! LOL

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Charley,

I think I will stay out of this one, you seem to be doing just fine without my help. The changing of the guard is not always easy or pretty.

All I can says is, I'm building a new engine for Shelby, and when its done I will be racing in CC. I have had a few heads up races and got my butt kicked, but for the most part I'm still competitive and still having fun. Being involved in two new cars and having my old car tells me we can all live together. These cars are here to stay for better or worse, and so am I.

I do respect everyone's opinion, but I hate to see things get so ugly. A little respect goes a long way towards each other, but I can't force members to show respect, I can only suggest it.

Andrew, the 352 has some great parts, but CNC’D Heads are not one of them.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Pedigo wears dresses!

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Yes, but wears them very well.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

The whole point is we (the old car racers) are paying a hell of a price for NHRA's plan to bring new blood to stock by making the playing field so biased against the older combo's. What rational person would sit at a poker table knowing the deck was stacked against them? I think NHRA has greatly underestimated the lack of perception of the Stock eliminators racers such as Kyle Ratcliff as he continues to show up for this fiasco when NHRA continues to crap on old car combo's.
If no FX class for new cars then how about a nostalgia prefix for the older cars?
NHRA has to quit droping piranhas in the goldfish tank.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

Are you being nice to me because I didn't mention your flat feet?

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

It keeps his sheep from getting "interested" in me.

Re: GM Releases 2013 bogus HP ratings at PRI show
 

What happend to salty?