Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

So Jim, if they move the late model cars from Stock to SS, do they get to keep the bogus HP ratings and indexes or do they get fixed? Isn't that kind of like moving the drug dealers and pimps to a new neighborhood and saying you fixed your crime problem?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Awesome, Tracy. Is that from "Office Space" or from an NHRA board meeting?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Many interesting older cars from the days of gross HP ratings aren't competitive and NHRA has never addressed lowering their ratings to get more "diversity" in Stock. Now we have the factory ratings going very far the other way, making everything that is old relatively uncompetitive. To make it even worse, turbo and supercharged cars don't lose power with elevation anywhere near what naturally aspirated engines do, so they are heavily favored at high altitude tracks.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Guy I may be wrong but what's crazy is that the new car owners have asked for some sort of shoot out. NHRA has not been able to come to terms for rules. I'm also pretty sure we didn't ask to have no hit at Indy, it was offered. And as everyone else would have we agreed. Instead of getting on here and bitching why don't y'all hold a division meeting at a division race and make your division rep take action? Because let's face it NO one will boycot NHRA.

I stand for the new cars when I say we all have started in the fastest classes available at the time and have taken hits to put us in slower classes. I don't believe anyone builds a new car just to make sure it kills an old car. We would like a fair shoot out class offered but then you stop the need for new technology. What if we went to NHRA and said we didn't feel safe chasing down cars that are going 30mph+ slower than us? I mean the year is 2014 guys not 1960-70's.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Not sure one can say too much about safety or the way the new cars drive. Did anyone watch Chris Holbrook in the factory stock final video? (post 262 of the Live from Indy Thread). He had only one hand on the wheel the whole time.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

No one blames the drivers. The discussion is just about NHRA's handling of factory cars. They make the rules. Drivers are not an issue, and never have been.

I am interested in including the Factory Stock program at the Class Nationals for next year, which can be featured during Class Eliminations. (We already have no AHFS for *any* class, since we're an independent event, and the indexes can be straightened out, so all of the traditional car concerns will be a non-issue for our event) It seems NHRA's much closer on the rules now. Where does it need tweaked at this point, if at all?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Merely that Mr. McCarthy mentioned “Roy”, who ran his wagon this year at Indy.

Roy Dean has run a wagon at Indy before. In 1986, Roy, in his R/SA, was runner up to Gary Long in his F/S Mercury.

Just some pleasant memories.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I think the Index would be the only issue. Not sure if anyone has been able to answer this: what is the average difference between a new car's weight, in it's 'natural' class(es) (AAA, AA, BB, CC, etc) and it's FSS weight? How much weight on average do the cars need to add/subtract, and the difference in corresponding Indexes of 10.10 and 10.35? Or take it on a case by case basis.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

The only tables that have turned is that NHRA doesn't apply certain parts of the rule book to the new cars.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Let's not forget that factory participation in NHRA stock (at least 2 of the big 3) virtually went to nothing for a decade or more by not producing a 2 door, rear wheel drive, v-8 car.

If the old stockers are allowed to be run out of the sport, and the car manufactures decide once again to abandon the rear wheel drive v-8 platform, we can all race mustangs, camaros, and challengers......I guess. :rolleyes:

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

This post started as" What's wrong with stock?"
In my opinion the only thing wrong with stock is perception. Stock is faster and cooler than EVER. ALL racing from junior dragsters to Top fuel evolves and for the most part gets better.
I absolutely feel for the guy that spent $31,000 on his 1970's carbed Stocker engine that does not qualify where he or she expects. However the Hatred being spewed at the really good guys who stepped up to NEW hardware has to stop!!
PLEASE remember the Pony Express died the day after the Telegraph wire was stretched across this country. Not because the young men on horseback were bad guys or didn't work hard. It got replaced because of efficiency!
The current situation in Stock today is NO different than being at INDY in 1995 when we witnessed Tim Ferguson pounding the tree in G/sa all day only to run Woodro in the final!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

From what I understand, the factory guys want to keep there FX cars in stock so I don't think NHRA is going to move them to SS. Factoring the HP of the new cars to a more realistic number right from the start would certainly help cut down on the bitching.

Coming to Mission?

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Good post but a lot of the older car racers have the "EGO" thing. Not a bad thing but its there none the less about being in a "lesser" program. Local racing years ago split the cars into Top Stock, Middle stock, and Jr. Stock. NHRA had Top Stock and Jr. stock because of minor rule differences and tire size but today we have Super Stock. The older cars and the new stuff (2008 and newer) just needs to be factored correctly. The speed difference could be a safety issue. The win and round money wont improve with a new eliminator either. Just thoughts of a long time ago vs today. I hope NHRA gets their act together soon. In my opinion (I know.....that dosent mean poop) the new car factors are not even close yet. Just mentioned some things for the young guys who were not there in the "stone age".

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Just a suggestion, from my little brain. Since the factories have successfully lobbied and gotten the HP ratings they wanted, and they are at the forefront, where they wanted them to be to begin with,let's all get together. All that see this as a grave disservice to the racers that have supported Stock and SS, lets put together a list of names, and comp #'s, and all stay behind it, and send it to NHRA. All of us, realize, that all 3 wanted and got what they wanted, so do us a solid favor, to keep us here. Give us all say.75/second( or something like it) back on our indexes. Lets square this , for all of us. You had an extra $18K from non qualifiers from Indy. That's your icing. Let's share the cake , we all enjoy.

Talk is talk. Lets all do something, and or scuff our shoes in the dirt.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Just do what Tavis and Bruce proposed four (4) years ago...( before it was shot down by the SRAC ). Make the AHFS instant hit at 1.0 second under. Then apply it across the board for all cars in Stock and SS eliminator. This will help factor all soft combos and speed up the process tremendously!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

By the numbers a C/SA running 1.0 under the index is a 10.40 car. The B/SA index is 11.25, so the C/SA car is still a competitive 0.85 under the B/SA index.

How about a variation of the breakout rule where qualifying 1.0 or greater under index bumps the car up a class and 1.0 or more under during eliminations is a breakout loss?

Let the cars at the top of the class ladder qualify against the National record since there's no upper class to bump them to. Or would that just tick people off?

Dale

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

No one is spewing hatred at the people who bought new cars. Quite the reverse, several of them are good friends of ours, including Jeff Teuton, the Beattie family, Doug Duell, and others, we have no hatred toward them, none at all. There is no animosity between "us and them".

There are those who would like to make the disagreement over how the new cars have been put into Stock a personal issue. That is their choosing.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Hi guys, this has been an interesting read. I'm glad that i grew up in a time
when i watched my dad Al Sr. build and machine his own engines,4 speeds
set up rears cams(you get the picture) I was also fortunate to go to many
Div. 1 races and learn watching all these TOUGH racers work on their cars.
This helped me to prepare my own stock elim. car (thanks Barry & Gary
Parker, Don Scinto, Eddie Bednaz and the rest) To me, making your car
run under or set the record (I did 3 times) is half the fun! The other fun
part is turning on the win light! If I could turn on the time machine I'd proabally
set it to 1970's stock elim (with a 4 speed of course!) I feel that ALL
stockers should play with the same set of rules. Also what about IHRA?
I know the payout is not there,but when the car count goes up, I'm sure the
money will follow.One final thing,I have always felt that NHRA has always
treated the stockers like 2nd class citizens. My form of class racing will
consist of stock / super stock all-star type races, have run racing your
friends. making new ones and maybe win a few bucks.Not feeding the NHRA
money machine... Just my 2 cents Al jr.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

What's wrong with Stock? The fact that someone who's smart, and willing to work hard, but can't spend a lot of money has little or no chance of winning.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I don't know what you mean,but except for Indy,you can win (eliminator,NOT class) in Stock Eliminator with any car or truck that can simply run the index.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

The only problem that I see with the new cars is that they make the old cars look......old.....and slow.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I think we pretty much know what's wrong.
Time to start a thread about how to fix it.
I'd do that myself, but I haven't wrapped my brain all the way around this.
This is not gonna be easy.
This deal has been five years in the making.

I suggest make it pithy ..Hit the high points first.

No complex formulas..Dial over , dial under , move a class up , down ,add this % , take away this %, etc .etc, They won't pay attention to that stuff , nor will most here .

Keep it relatively simple, practical, and workable.


Go...

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Oh great, and I thought I was treated poorly in super-gas!
I have been working on an older car to run in A, B or C stock. I'm just about to shelve the idea because I'm not sure even my super-gas car could run with the new cars in stock.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Run them all off an index same as comp, run under and you are "hit" penalized the same way as comp does. Same exact formula for all classes.

The hard part is getting everything in the "right" class but, after a few events it will sort itself out.

Now that's gonna hurt some feelings

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I could be wrong,but I doubt that will work.The last national event that I went to had 13 Comp cars.

http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCSt...r2014#indextop

With participation that low,I don't even know why they bother running the class.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Simple:
http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...3&postcount=98

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

In October of 2009 an attorney wrote to Linda Louie, nhra attorney, to inquire about nhra membership rights. Ms Louie responded by saying we had no rights and then offered nhra's position on the new CJ's and Challengers. Even though our attorney never brought up the subject of new cars in her letter.

I have attached a copy of the three page letter to this post. Hope it comes through.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Well said Alan, just because someone buys a new Dragpak, Camaro or Mustang, does not make them a bad guy. If I could afford to, I would buy a New Mustang just like Charlie Downing. Fact is I even contacted some Ford people to kick the idea around. My partner likes the COPO 350 stick! Over the last year, I spent 150k in transporter, trailer and a building to house the operation. So for now, I have an old beat-up 67 Camaro to deal with. In 1967, the Z28 Camaro was rated at 290 HP. Today is rated at 309 HP. Chevrolet did not intentionally rate the Z28 at 200 HP, like the new factory cars did. Again I am not angry with someone for taking advantage of the situation. If I could I would run in G/S and beat up on Donnie Beeler! Just kidding Donnie. Would that be fair? I don't think so. And what would I be accomplishing? It looks like NHRA is going to completely rely on the AFIS system to correct the combinations. Just as soon as the AFIS factors a combination near the correct zip code! they come out with a new engine combination, which in some cases, was years after the 2009 body year. And the worst part, NHRA allows it!

I wonder if NHRA would allow me to run a new engine combination for my 1967 Camaro, if Chevrolet developed a new engine. This is exactly what NHRA did with regards to the 2009 Dragpak, with the 345 engine, rated at 305 HP! Think about it. The 2009 Dragpak is 5 years old and the factory is still bringing out new engine combinations! That being the case, the new engine combination should only be run in a 2014 Dragpak, not a 2009 or the 2010 year body. Again, I am not angry with anyone for taking advantage. I know I would do the same thing.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Mark, here is an idea. The quickest runs by the factory cars at Indy were - FS/A @ 8.646 and FS/B @ 8.849. So we know what the cars are capable of. Make the indexes starting the next time they run - FS/A @ 9.75 and FS/B @ 10.00 and implement the AHFS for all cars. That should level the playing field and make most races happy, at least for a little while. Just my 2 cents, but hey you gotta start somewhere.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Mike, What do we do about Charlie Bob Downing? That car started out in K/Stock , I think. You want new classes all the way down? Won't happen.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Let those cars run with each other in a separate FX eliminator...I know it's been said
before by others...Also, I don't think there should ever be an 8-second Stocker...it doesn't
sound right to me...I'm still having a "problem" with 9-second Stock Elim cars...but that's
just my .02.....

Allowing "VIN-less" cars in Stock is just one more example of Stock Elim's intent being
compromised a bit further...then there's the speed differential with the slower cars...

I wouldn't want to be out there running those monsters with a 15-16 second "dime
rocket"....

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

How about the bottom 4 qualifiers have to hold a "SHAME ON YOU NHRA" banner at the track entrance. Hey it's a start.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

No. No new classes at all. Use the regular NHRA classes. AAA down to G or whatever the lowest class a new car can run (K/SA with the convertible Mustang I think?). Run like Comp. That way, ALL new cars can compete, instead of basically AAA-AA-BB-CC. ALL new cars can run for the money. Charlie would get a 2.2 second head-start over Fezzell (11.80 F/S to AAA/S 9.70); first one to the stripe wins.

Regular class, regular Index, regular weight, and AHFS can then apply as normal.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I know what you mean by Vin-less cars , guys..but that's not the problem.Most of the 80's Olds Cutlasses you still see don't have VINs either.

There needs to be a specific description for the sake of discussion, and to be able to separate them , if desired. We know they were never certified for the road with emissions and CAFE standards. Also not part of a run of 500 or more cars.
I like FX cars , because that's what they are.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Ron, I was thinking of something along those lines for FS, but that's really just an Indy deal at this time. Lower the indexes and they'll still qualify at Indy but it won't look so blatant anyway.
Better off to leave the indexes alone, and put the AHFS in affect
It's very hard to analyze the data from Indy because FS cars aren't subject to hp penalties.

Right now, I'm more concerned about guys with good running traditional cars like Scott Burton's being covered by 4 tenths in the eliminator by an FX car.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Okay, so now it sounds like a new eliminator category?

There aren't enough FX cars in some parts of the country to do something like that.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Mark, my proposal revises the current FSS deal somewhat. No more, no less.

Take Indy for example: Indy, they run their normal class all weekend. Come time for Class Eliminations, they run FSS, except ALL the new cars run each other, much like a Stock Combo Class. This would be the new FSS. They all run each other. The winner of that all-run (67 cars at Indy) race would be the FSS winner. And the old cars can still win CC/SA on down (AAA-AA-BB would be empty classes for Class Elims, since those cars would run the 'new' FSS format, unless an older high-hp car can fit). And, in eliminations, they dial-in as normal, except for heads-up runs.

All we are doing is revamping/improving the FSS Format, so that they play under the same AHFS rules as everyone else.

This only applies to races with a FSS Shootout. Which, as far as I know, is only three to four Nat'l Events a year.

Ideally, all new cars would have an FX designation, but NHRA will never add new classes (except for down the road if they need AAAA/SA and AAAAA/SA)

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Okay. It takes same amount of total time to run x number of cars, no matter how many in each individual class.. I get this but now they're back in the eliminator beating up on the old cars.

Solution? Put an X in front of the class designation on the "new" cars.
NO heads up runs between X and non X cars..
Yes I just opened up that can of worms.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I like Mikey's idea for Nat events contesting FS.

How about...other events with Class ; Run all FX stockers in one combo class.

So, you've got one more class trophy to give out .. Big deal .Not gonna break 'em.
Maybe not... Say you have two cars in B/SA...both FX cars. They both go to combo class so they save a trophy there anyway

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Mark, I see what you are saying. Problem being, with leaving the index alone, then the cars aren't going to be run all out anymore. At least, by lowering the index, the cars won't run 1.4 or 1.5 under anymore. They should be about .8 to 1.1 under, hopefully

I totally agree with you about the deal of traditional stockers, such as, Scott Burton's Firebird being outrun with ease. I am sure that is why he left Indy. Can't bring a knife to a gun fight.

As I have said all along, I like the new cars (definitely fun to watch run), but where should they be put. I keep hearing FX and I like the way that sounds. Takes me back to the sixties and SOHC Mustangs, altered wheelbase Coronets and such. Ah the good old days.

Maybe put them in their own eliminator. But like you said, there aren't enough of them nationwide to make that work either. Just more food for thought.