Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Jeff, I don`t care what hood you run, is your 13 challenger B/SA a factory production car or a Drag Pak car. if factory production car? only superseded and or replacement parts you can use are motor parts, if listed by NHRA, no body parts per rule book, Joseph said your car didn`t have ser. # , Do you have to use stock control arms with straight axle or do you run indep. rear end? like the stock production Challenger came with. Tom

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I wasn't a Chevy dealer or even alive in 1969. But couldn't you get a cowl hood for a Camaro over the counter or installed on your small block car? I would think you could with all the other options you could get over the counter. So, why did all those cars have to change to the flat hood and try to match paint a few years ago? I'm just asking because I'm uninformed. Please do not curse me out or call me names. Btw, I ran AA this year, and would prefer 10.80.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

10.75 or 10.80 would be a fair index for AA. This hood business is interesting but it's not that big a deal either way. The big deal is the horsepower rating of the Challengers in question and the reduction in shipping weight. First the 392 SRT motor is 485 from the factory and had 105 hp taken off before it ever went down the track and is rated at 380. The 5.7 Hemi is 375 hp from the factory and is rated at 300 now. These ratings are at SAE net with all accessories, mufflers and cats. Also shipping weights were reduced by 5-600 lbs. As long as I've been racing the only thing that comes close to this are the extremely bogus hp ratings used on the factory race cars when they first came out.

One needs to ask who benefits from these hp and weight reductions and how things like this happen. Is this good for stock eliminator? What's this do for the guys who have a car that runs in the same class? In my opinion, Nhra, the manufacturer, and the folks that pushed for this are responsible. We get side tracked by issues like a hood, but the big thing is the hp ratings and reduction in shipping weights.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

So now we're not just looking for a Vin number on a car with a hood, now are looking for a Vin number on the car with the hood, 500 pounds less weight and a lot softer horse power factor? Is that what you're saying Mr. Hill?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The pink car is not classified as a Drag Pak. It doesn't follow the same rules as a DragPak. It's being classified as a showroom production car. It has a straight axle that was approved by NHRA. Other than that everything else on the car is avalible from the factory with factory part numbers!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Again this is not a Drag Pak. So no it's not 500 lbs less weight, it has glass windows, outside mirrors, and everything but a rear axle that comes from the factory. The hood is available for this car but to be honest it does nothing in performance due the fact it's made to run with a factory air box. Guys this is called evolution. We can not keep racing 1960, 70's, 80's and so on car when we are in the year 2016. We can't really think that the factory's were not going to produce cars and people were not going to submit them to NHRA to race and move along history huh..? Every car out there had a soft hp rating when it first came out or NO one would have raced it. With due time this will be consider an old car and other new cars will be here.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Every car? Seriously? You REALLY want to try to tell us that EVERY car out there started out 5% to 20% or more soft?

And you really want to tell us no one ever builds anything that doesn't start off truly soft when they build it? No one would ever consider racing Stock or Super Stock if they couldn't start off with a soft easy combination?

Does anyone really seriously think that class racing has reached that point? Is it entirely over run with people who feel entitled and need a complete gift from the rule book in order to come race?

Look, I don't give a rat's back side about the hood on your car. And I like the new cars. But I don't think they need a massive gift in order to get them to the track.

Now that the thread has been completely derailed, how about we get back on the subject? A perfect example was this weekend. Where would McClanahan have qualified had he been running on a 10.80 index, as opposed to the current 10.60 index? He'd have been .979 under, as opposed to .779 under. Is .979 really outside the norm for a fast car?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I saw the pink car had the glove box insulated to hold cold beer, can this be confirmed as a factory option or is this another way y'all are skirting the rules?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Joseph, So Jeff`s Challenger started out as a Drag Pak car and you changed it to a production car, per you said it had no ser. #, do you have same control arms as the Drag Pak? 4 bar or do you have stock control arms per rule book? you didn't answer my question. Tom

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Allen I didn't give specifics how soft but cars didn't start where they truly should have been. Are some index's soft sure.

With so many combos out there why would you want to pick a combo that isn't competitive, is all I was saying.

As the thread goes, your buddy Bruce started the tiff about the hood and accusing us of cheating. I agree as everone on the thread that something needs to be done and not just AA!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Tom as I stated it has everything Legal as per NHRA tech! Does it matter what I say it had considering it's been to a few races and at everyone someone has tried to get the car thrown out yet NHRA tech approves the cat over and over again. I'm glad to see there are plenty of people not wanting to run this pink car heads up! Exciting! Maybe we should build a few more of these!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Hey....this is Great!! It never ends.....Tune in same time tomorrow......

RJ

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

This is an option for racers with the three C's (class, cooth, and culture) and proper stem wear. So only distinguished drivers have them! Lmao

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Joseph, You didn't answer my question, Does Jeff`s car have stock control arms per rules for production cars that came with indep. rear end & changed to straight axle? Tom

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I'm always excluded by the three C's, must of been around Mickey too long!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Joe,
There are plenty of cars out there running that have never been anywhere near as soft as a lot of new stuff started out. People still run the stuff that didn't start out real soft. There's competitive, and then there's ludicrous, and we all know the difference. Some of the recent stuff has come up 50HP since it was put in the guide. That's absurd.

Again, I don't give a rat's behind about your hood. I don't care who started it, either, it doesn't matter who started what.

New cars are cool, and the truth is, I like the Challenger more than the Camaro, it's a better looking car and more true to the original. But either keep them all separate, or start them with a factor that doesn't need a massive adjustment. A car that starts off in G, H, or J, and within a couple of years ends up real close to B is a little excessive. No one needs a 20HP pad to get started.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Tom to answer your questions correctly I will double check the control arms for you. Untill I get back please know NHRA has considered the entire car including but not subject to; hood, control arms, axle, motor, and even the color as legal for NHRA racing in the class of a natural B/SA. Hey I don't make the rules( even though some do) we just follow them.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Hey, back on the hood deal.
Now tell me how to get the 69 Z cowl hood on my F-body Z???
Joe?
Alan?
Even Bruce?
OH, I forgot Ford "Boy" R.J. Sledge
Tell me that procedure

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Alan
I agree with all your your statements..

I

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

LOL.

A little pot stirring.

:D

Kevin sold the G/S Camaro I was driving before the hood ruling came out.

My next ride will probably be a Chevelle.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Alan, you working on a cowl hood approval for the Chevelle?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

ROFLMAO.

Right now I'm working on shelf space for a 5 speed Allison, and finding enough help and strength to get it up there. :D


But ya think they'll let me run a 4" cowl hood, to hide a Strip Dominator and a 1050 4150 series carb? :eek:

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Maybe I can help on vin# for new cars!! any new car that comes from the Factory as a driver for the street has the vin# removed by the factory if it is to become a Race Car. in 1985 when I got my new Oldsmobile from the factory the vin# was removed by olds. and as far as the Hoods go the NHRA should let you run any Hood that was made for any V8 Car for that year. they let all big block Corvette's from 1968 to 72 run the cowl hood for 40+years untill one crybaby complained about them and they took them away!!!! just like on the 69 Camaro.and when I changed to the flat Hood it made O on the E.T. slip it just looked Cooler. just my two cents. S.P.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Hagen because someone cried to Nhra saying that's not legal......its not fair the Chevies are too fast.....we can't keep up......lol...

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

The NHRA allows the drag pack, COPO, and Cobra Jet suspension for the 2008 up production based combinations.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Since no one chose to answer your question, I will try. The controversy came over whether the ZL-2 hood (cowl hood) option was available as an factory installed option on the 255hp 350 (LM1 engine option code). NHRA ruled it was not and there is some documentation to back it up, so those are the cars that were required to go back to the flat hood.


Supposedly, that ruling came with an indication that NHRA was going to start correcting the illegalities in combinations and allowed parts that had crept into use over time. We have not seen any additional rulings come down, so it's about time for the integrity issues to come back to the surface since it looks like politics, appeasing some whiners, and not a real attempt to correct anything.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Back to the topic:
I don't have a chupacabra or even a dog in this fight, nor would I want one, but here's a suggestion:
The racers wanted the 10.60 index, right?
Now some of them don't.
So, somebody contact NHRA and suggest anyone who raced AA/SA or AA/S in the last 12 months, gets a vote via email from tech..
10. 60 or 10.75, at the half year point.
There..easy enough.
I suggest the big Cajun guy makes the contact with NHRA

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

No, that is NOT correct. The guys who asked for AA never asked for 10.60, not a single one that I know of, and most of us were discussing this with each other at the time.

When NHRA created the AA/S and AA/SA classes, the A/SA index was 11.30. Len Imbrogno asked the group of racers what index they wanted for AA, and the index agreed upon was 10.90, and no mention was made of lowering the indexes 3 tenths at any time. I'm not seeing anywhere in Stock or Super Stock where a 0.5 pound weight break equaled 4 tenths to begin with. But the guys who asked for AA asked for some room to let the cars run, that we all agreed on. The truth is, when the indexes were lowered, it brought most of the rest of the classes inline with the 10.90 index for AA. At which point lowering the AA index one tenth to 10.80 would have been reasonable, and pretty much acceptable to everyone.

And yeah, right now, we wouldn't vote, due to a myriad of reasons, we've been out for a year or two. However, we were one of the first to roll out with AA/SA on the windshield, and ran it consistently for quite some time.

http://static.dragracecentral.com/st...0940-00182.JPG

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

I was afraid someone would say they have been out for a year.
Okay, make it two years then.
Carry on...

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

GUMP, Jeff`s challenger Runs A,B,C/SA, is not racing as a Drag Pak car, Different rules on rear suspension on stock production cars per rule book, look it up.Tom

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

No, Mark, we have been out a little over two years, again, due to various reasons. I'm not posting so much as a vote, but rather just to bring the facts about AA to light.

However, we do intend to return, it's just that the road back is not as short and easy as we'd like. We're a lot closer to the 396/375 aluminum head engine than the ZL-1, which went on the back burner. We do plan to build the ZL-1, maybe even as a stick combination. But we need to do the 396 just to get back on our feet and back to the track, it's been a rough couple of years.

And I can see the point some have about the 10.60 index. The problem is that at Indy, for example, you need to be solidly in the 9.70 zone, in hot and humid weather, to be pretty certain to make the field. No doubt that a few can do it, at least they have an 80% chance, if nothing goes wrong. Maybe if I work real hard, and we have some good things happen, we might be one of those that can.

As far as voting goes, I'll bow to Rayburn's rule, I respect the guy, we don't vote until we return.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Must be past these guys bedtime, nothing for 5 hours now!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Understood. I'm just telling you what the NHRA allows for these cars. There is no way that you can make the factory control arms work. Have you looked under a late model GTO or Corvette stocker lately?

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Interesting, I would never, ever, have expected that. Had a long conversation with another stock eliminator racer a few years back when the new cars were coming in with essentially 4 link suspensions to compete against cars with 1950's leaf or coil spring suspensions. His feelings were non-stock suspension meant Super Stock.
I'm sure all the folks with the new cars feel otherwise. Does anyone know why NHRA allowed these cars into Stock versus placing them into Super Stock? I was asked that just last week at a cruise night.

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Doug Duell took a showroom stock Challenger and built the first A/SA " new car". NHRA checked the car from top to bottom before it was approved. Travis had it up on jack stands with the wheels and tires off, making sure it had the Factory components and that the suspension mods where legal according to the NHRA rule book. Many photos were taken . ( feel free to correct me if I'm miss informed ). Friends, those days are over. NHRA has approved the use of the factory built race cars - Copos, Drag Pacs and Cobra Jets with the use of an approved showroom engine combos for traditional stock eliminator. They may have to conform to "some" of the rules, like the correct hood. But they're legal per NHRA - As I said earlier, tuff pill to swallow for the old timers. But get use to it, they're here to stay and there's more coming. Correcting, and having the correct index for your class is the only chance the old combos have. Bottom line is Jeff's car is a Drag Pac Challenger and its legal per NHRA. End of story. I'm gonna race!

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

It is not my belief that the four link was done to spite anyone or to gain an advantage. It is just a reality that the way the newer independent rear suspensions are configured does not allow for a workable solid axle conversion. The GTO's and Corvette's have been allowed to run torque arms, etc. for quite some time, so this is nothing new. When I started working on my BIW Camaro in 2010, I sent photo's to GM of a torque arm under the car. I got no response. When the 2012 COPO prototype was at the PRI I asked the NHRA if that would be legal for Stock Eliminator. They said yes, but with a 12-bolt. So that is what I went home and built. I am still waiting for the new engine specification to be published by the NHRA.........

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Man sorry to say they just hit the wall

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Hey where did everyone go??

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Norwalk AA/S index informal survey -

Brian / Ryan McClanahan - change to 10.70
Jim Bailey - change to 10.75
Gene Jordan - change to 10.80 ( really doesn't care )
Randy Wilkes - change to 10.80

There , that's a start !

Re: Has anyone changed their mind about AA/SA index?
 

Keith Bennett change to 10.80