Originally Posted by Bryan Worner (Post 657126)

This is a real easy one to explain so I’ll tackle it! Firebird can run SS/HA, Camaro can’t! So when they race each other, let’s say in the final of a national event, or a must win round in a points race, they won’t race heads up! Therefore, neither will have to lean on their combo, which is the same in both cars, to secure that all important round win! So they just race each other in bracket mode and continue on with the same factor. Allen, is that a good explanation???

Originally Posted by Joey Bohannon (Post 657184)

Please define "Paper Car" , I thought one of the first sentences in the rule book was something along the lines of "reserved for factory produced cars". I am not trying to stir a pot or be an ***, I want a real definition.

Originally Posted by gts340 (Post 657083)

any bets this all goes away.

Paul

Originally Posted by KRatcliff (Post 657182)

I have thought a little more about your explanation and tying it to Allen's comment. I think your explanation is valid, but narrow in the scope that you are comparing the same engine combination in a Firebird vs. a Camaro that are not running in the same class due to weight breaks. Thus eliminating a head's up situation, but I didn't read Allen's question as being that narrow.

Maybe he meant it to be as such, but he simply said "it helps the entire LT1 combo avoid heads-up runs and HP adjustments" which I contend that is not true. The head's up runs are not limited to the same combo they could be any combination in your respective class as you know. That was why I answered that the more classes a LT1 can compete in the greater odds of a heads up run with one of the other combos and it would affect the entire LT1 family in both the Firebirds and Camaros if triggers are hit or the average is affected.

Originally Posted by Allen Wilson III (Post 657195)

You’re right. Bryan said it much better than I. It spreads the combo out further than it should and prevents some of the obviously fast cars from ever having to run each other.

Originally Posted by Larry Hill (Post 657173)

If Shelby put the .527/.527 cam in their cars so be it. Allowing it to be used in all 428 mustang or mercury is wrong. Something in rule book about factory produce and in the hands of the general public.

Lets put the Z28 can in all the SBC, it fits.

Originally Posted by grncpe (Post 657179)

Sure! We will take the Mr Norms demon then. 340 with six pack or the optional Paxton super charger! Sounds fair.

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil (Post 657203)

Mr. Norms Grand Spaulding Dodge was a dealership, NOT the manufacturer. If dealer installed modified cars were allowed, there could be 401 Gremlins from Randall American, and 454 Vegas from Baldwin /Motion rolling into the Stock staging lanes!

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven (Post 657084)

Not sure if this story is 100% true, but I was told that in 1998, GM racing had not fully developed the ls1 as part of their program. Pontiac racing opted to stick with the lt1 for the 1998 model year for their race cars. They never made any body in white “race only” Camaros, so they, along with all of the street trim cars, came with ls1 engines.

Originally Posted by Adger Smith (Post 657174)

Larry,
I want the Z-28 optional cam and Cross Ram intake that was supposed to come in the trunk, when ordered, and be dealer installed... let's not forget & The cowl hood for it...

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 657215)

The 1998 GM Performance Parts Catalog page 180.

24502480 - Current Model Year Camaro Z-28 Body in White

Originally Posted by Doug Hoven (Post 657227)

I stand corrected. I wonder what the ratio of Firebirds to Camaro body in white cars sold is. It seems like the Firebirds were a more popular purchase.

Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 657125)

And yet, when it's convenient for them, the manufacturers "manipulate" the weights and NHRA goes right along with them! Case-in-point,

2019 Challenger 1320 #3399 8.23 a nice natural A car that can make AA/A/B

2017 Challenger Hellcat #4500 7.50 natural AA car that can make A

Same car, #1100 difference between the two? It couldn't just be that Mopar was picking-and-choosing classes could it?

Larry, maybe you could ask your Mopar buddys about this (and your hood) and I'll find out about that .525 FFFFord cam.

Originally Posted by dartman (Post 657230)

not the same cars at all.hellcat is a 6.2s/c car. 1320 is a 6.4n/a car.

Originally Posted by Lenny5160 (Post 657232)

How much does that blower weigh???

Originally Posted by Glenn Briglio (Post 657241)

1000 lbs right............lol

Originally Posted by littlemanjoe (Post 656913)

Hopefully the Mopar big blocks 6 pack combos can get an HP break so we can keep up with the others.
The cars have to weigh almost 4000 lbs
Trying to run with cars that make the same power that weigh 3400 lbs.

It's now like taking a knife gun fight.

Originally Posted by Tom Meyer (Post 657253)

How many almost free SS Pontiacs were given out back in the day. Div 5 had a few after a trip to FJ?

Originally Posted by Rory McNeil (Post 657202)

Or allow 70 and 71 E body 440 6 barrel cars use the aluminum Edelbrock intake manifold that only came on the 69 B12 Road Runner and Super Bees, rather than the cast iron manifold that the 70 and 71 3x2 barrel car actually came with? Or the fiberglass hood that was only factory installed on the 340 AAR Cuda and T/A Challengers, on any E Body? What was the old saying about people who live in glass houses?

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 657251)

From Dodge's website.....

- $3,995
- "1320" Fender Badge
- "1320" I/P Badge
- 1320 Illuminated Air Catcher
- 20-Inch x 9.5-Inch Low-Gloss Black Drag Wheels
- 275/40R20 102Y Drag Radial Tires
- Adaptive Damping Suspension
- Dodge Alcantara® Performance Steering Wheel
- Dodge Performance Pages
- Drag Mode Performance Pages
- Drag Mode Suspension
- Driver Floor Mat (NAW 1320 Plus Group)
- Front Pass Seat Belt Delete (NAW 1320 Plus Group)
- 1-Yr NMCA/NHRA Membership - visit DodgeGarage.com
- Passenger Seat Delete (NAW 1320 Plus Group)
- Rear Seat Delete Group (NAW 1320 Plus Group)
- Speed Limited Engine Controller
- Transbrake

Originally Posted by Steve Stasko (Post 657259)

So optional rear seat, passenger's seat, and no blower. Still not seeing 1000 lbs there...

My '2017 R/T with the T/A package was 4275 at Maple Grove with me and a quarter tank of gas. I'm 170. It's a 5.7, 6-speed. Deduce your own conclusions on the 1320.

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 657260)

Did you read my post about how the 2015 Camaro came to be so light? There has to be a concession for all of the stuff that can legally be taken out. If not, you could not legally race these late model cars. If they would allow 1,000 lbs. of ballast I think the car would be a tad dangerous.....

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 657260)

Did you read my post about how the 2015 Camaro came to be so light? There has to be a concession for all of the stuff that can legally be taken out. If not, you could not legally race these late model cars. If they would allow 1,000 lbs. of ballast I think the car would be a tad dangerous.....

Originally Posted by SS/GSI (Post 657283)

Darin, I have no idea where you get that there would be 1000#'s of ballast in the car. I also do not understand how you do not comprehend the basis of "Shipping Weight" as it pertains to how NHRA forms what we know as being the Stock Classification Guide. To actually mention that their "should be" a concession for what we are legally allowed to remove?!?! So I guess the new cars are the only ones who removed back seats, factory front seats, AC, Heater Box, Spare Tire, OEM Fuel Tank +++??? You do not think that older model cars would like this preferential SW treatment? Do we start putting the roll cage weights onto shipping weights...mild steel or chromoly...6, 8, 10 point or FC cage???!!!

With the current SW on the '15 Camaro(Natural A car, can run AA/A/B) 1 competitor last year ran AA, 1 ran A and 6 ran B(including Mr. Warren), so obviously the car fits A or B best. The car, if given the proper shipping weight would be capable of running C; therefore needing to add 200#'s. In SS it would go from G/H/I to H/I/J; therefore adding 180#'s from its lowest class.

If the solution to the integrity of the Stock Classification Guide is for NHRA and all the squeaky wheels out there is to distort and/or get rid of correct SW's all together and run as low as you can weigh, then I guess there is not need to call ourselves STK and SS....Steel NO-Box Bracket I & II to the lanes!!!

Originally Posted by SS/GSI (Post 657283)

With the current SW on the '15 Camaro(Natural A car, can run AA/A/B) 1 competitor last year ran AA, 1 ran A and 6 ran B(including Mr. Warren), so obviously the car fits A or B best. The car, if given the proper shipping weight would be capable of running C; therefore needing to add 200#'s. In SS it would go from G/H/I to H/I/J; therefore adding 180#'s from its lowest class.

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 657299)

That means to run C it would need to be 3775. As I have already explained, that would be over 700 lbs. of ballast. This would make the car technically illegal and unsafe too.

This is a link to an on-going project that I have with Chevrolet. I have noted a lot of weights of things that we removed. Note that just the wheels and tires are over 240 lbs.!!

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=538617

These cars are not even close to Stockers. If I were to convert them, they would easily be 3,000 lbs. including driver.

Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 657115)

This argument goes back to 2009 when I purchased one of the very first BIW Camaros. There was some heated discussion about the shipping weight. The gentleman at Chevrolet would not listen and submitted the 2010 Camaro at around 3,800 lbs. without driver.

At that time, nobody had really done anything with one of these cars. Since I knew that Chevrolet wanted to build the COPO, I tried to get them to work with me to come up with an NHRA accepted rear suspension. My emails went unanswered.

In 2011 I purchased a zero option 1 SS Camaro. It weighed around 3600 lbs. minus driver. At the PRI Show I crawled under the COPO and measured the rear suspension. I then went to Bruce at NHRA and worked with him to make it legal for the 2010 Camaro. I went home and built it. All the time sharing with Bruce.

Before I got the car finished the whole COPO thing happened...

In 2015 I ordered two new 2016 cars. I decided to park the 2012 because of it's unique history. That left the 2014. I reached out to Chevrolet about putting all the Camaros in the guide. They settled on the 2015.

With all of the knowledge gained in those years it was obvious that a 2015 Camaro built within the current rules for Stock Eliminator would weigh around 2,800 lbs without driver. That's 1,100 lbs. from what you want and 800 lbs. from the 2012 car that I owned!! The decision was made to keep the ballast to no more than 500 lbs.

That is the way the 2015 Camaro got to that weight.

If the NHRA wants new cars in the Class guide, they have to make a weight concession for all of the stuff that can legally be removed.

OK, that's my version of history. One day I'll share my story on the LS3 engine specs......