Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Excellent point. Back in the day all we had for data acquisition was lacking in a lot of ways. The holy grail for me was in tracking ground speed. The g-meters at the time (and sadly, the most popular DA computer) did not have sample rates fast enough to give a precise view of what was going on. Yes, it would give you a general idea, but like Stahl used to say "there's a reason we don't measure bores with a yardstick". He understood how important precision was in almost every area of racing.

A couple of times I ran across teams trying to step things up. Chuck Peterson had a 5th wheel with speed sensor tucked under his PM Chevelle until the IHRA made him remove it. He told me it was more of a pain than a breakthrough, since any decent amount of sideways movement would just fold it up.

I was standing under the tower drivethrough during a night session at Englishtown. Harold Stout's car had a light go on from under the car in front of the right slick when they fired he engine. I had found that system previously, used on Bonneville cars - the sensor would measure the time it took for the sensor (aimed straight down towards the surface, beam aimed a bit forward) to move across the beam and then calculate the speed. I asked Donnie Gardner about it later and he said he hadn't gotten much useful info from it. That could have been whitewashing, but he always seemed like a pretty straighforward guy.

To explain why I was so interested in that tech, remember that the only reliable thing we had to look at was driveshaft speed. And if you think about it, that alone tells you very little about exactly what's going on. How much, if any, of that speed was created by a slightly (or more) spinning, non-glued to the track slick? No way to tell for sure.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Well I don?t think I?ve heard it summed up better.
Mic drop?

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Not to revive this thread as it seems it got a little out of hand, but I'd like to input my 2 cents as well. Just wanted to wait until it calmed down a bit.

Obviously no two cars are the same. Between peak power, converters, power curves, gearing, weight, suspension set-up, tire size/contact patch, and a host of other variables, I believe it would be impossible to determine the right way to set up every car without testing it in the real world and seeing whether a car can wheelie, needs to wheelie, and what's faster.

I'd like to approach the subject from a more abstract, physics perspective, using one main principle. There is no such thing as a "free lunch."

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy (and matter) cannot be created or destroyed. Within a closed system, all energy put into it cannot be removed or lost. A vehicle is not a closed system by any means, but in this case, we can make a few engineering assumptions and reduce the system to a closed system, especially considering the first 60ft of a pass are at relatively low speeds so resistances such as wind and friction are not of significance.

Just think to yourself and imagine the energy it takes to lift a car off the ground with only the moment of inertia created by the rear-ends rotational acceleration on the ground, it's force being equal and opposite assuming a dead hook and perfect traction. That is a TON of energy. Now I understand there is lots of potential energy stored in the front springs of a car that help the front end off the ground along with the cars ability to drive underneath it's center of gravity as the front end goes higher and higher, further exacerbating the wheel stand.

The amount of power (or energy over time) an engine makes is finite from the starting line to the 60 ft beams along with any other increment you choose down the race track. This rotational energy can be expended in many ways: Friction loss, heat, sound, etc. but most importantly in our case, acceleration. If a car has the ability to accelerate straight forward without lifting the car off the ground at all, there is no wasted energy lifting the front end against Earth's gravitational pull. Knowing the amount of energy we have to work with is finite, any energy spent lifting the car off the ground is energy we could have used accelerating the car.

Again, each car is different, and a wheel stand may be necessary for your combination to achieve the traction it needs to keep the tire planted and accelerate. Along with whatever black magic science goes into making your converter work or whatever other excuse you may have for steadfastly insisting a wheelie is necessary or faster. From a Thermodynamics point of view it isn't and it can't be.

In conclusion, wheelies are slow, but man are they awesome. I will continue to do them, I do not care if it's slower.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

My car not stocker but a 9” radial slick would go 1.35 sixty with the front tires and 1.49 with rears when it carried them past. The 1.49 always resulted in quicker et but it is a low budget deal so probably not the ideal setup but I never minded because like many have said big wheelies are fun. My super stock buddy always said ya want to be moving forward not up said it was a waste of energy but not the case for my car. Cal-tracs, Calvert monoleafs and single adjustable QA1s on rear Calvert 90/10s on front.
Terry

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Again, the OP's question was...

NOT whether they are need for your car to hook, NOT whether they are fun or not and NOT about any specific combo or car!!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

How this got started was a conversion about wasted energy going up and not forward. I was of the thought that given our [stocker] kind of vehicles with a small tire and in some cases a lot of torque that to get the car to move forward the mass has to move to the tires which is a wheelie. Yes in a perfect world there would be just forward motion but given our limitations that just doesn't happen. So given every combo is different a wheelie is needed more or less given the vehicle and track condition. One thing about doing wheelies is that it should hook anywhere and you know it is moving forward.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

So if a wheelie helps a car to hook, that will not effect your et? :eek:



Stan

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I was just saying for me the higher the wheelie the quicker the et would be, has no wheelie bars. When clocked with the rears the quicker et would be. The fun in it was just a great bonus.
Terry

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Exactly, straight up out of the beams is not the fast way. If you watch a fast stocker it will go forward first then up. Or should I say; a good working stocker…

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Have been intermittently following this thread.

Has this discussion included 330" time comparisons wheel stand to none if not why???

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

This what you mean Frank?
Nothing to do with "wheelies" but 60' to 330', PG vs. 3 speed.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Again, the OP's question was...

NOT whether they are need for your car to hook, NOT whether they are fun, NOT about SLR, NOT about any specific combo or car, NOT about PG vs. 3 speed

The FACT remains what you lose or gain in 60 foot directly effects the ET!

If you get to the 60 foot clocks slower and you WILL, breaking the beam with any part of the car behind the front tires no mind the back tires, you WILL run a slower ET!

That statement is indisputable and FACT!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Too broad and vague a question to answer without making personal opinions from personal experiences and assumptions. But I'm quite certain that the moderator is happy with all of the personal responses though.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Absolutely NOT!

For the type of cars discussed in this forum, Stock/Super stock and their related bracket car counterparts, meaning small tire cars with stock/bolt on suspensions as well back halved cars, the FACT remains what you lose or gain in 60 foot directly effects the ET!

If you get to the 60 foot clocks slower and you WILL, breaking the beam with any part of the car behind the front tires no mind the back tires, you WILL run a slower ET!


He was when I spoke to him on Sunday ;)

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

[QUOTE=1320racer;704250]Absolutely NOT!

For the type of cars discussed in this forum, Stock/Super stock and their related bracket car counterparts, meaning small tire cars with stock/bolt on suspensions as well back halved cars, the FACT remains what you lose or gain in 60 foot directly effects the ET!

If you get to the 60 foot clocks slower and you WILL, breaking the beam with any part of the car behind the front tires no mind the back tires, you WILL run a slower ET!

Checked log back on one of the 60’ rear tire days. 1/8 mile track 1st pass 60’ with fronts 1.356 sixty 4.111 330 6.451 1/8 104.5 mph. Second pass 60’ with rears 1.495 sixty 4.109 330 6.450 1/8 104.8 mph. But a hillbilly shouldn’t be in a conversation with someone with an apparent IQ of 1000 so my last comment on this subject.
Terry

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

you shouldn't!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Terry,
Thanks. Good information.


Stan

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

bogus info that he thinks is valid

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Ok this is the last one if a car normally sets the front tires down right at the sixty but occasionally sets em down slightly passed now reading from the back tires be slower ET? Your assumption maybe correct for a car with the front tires still in the air when the rears get to the sixty.
Terry

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Has anyone checked the horse for life? We seem to have beaten it to the point of its expiration.

As for the answer to the question from the OP I guess we will never truly know...

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Speak for yourself, I know!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Ellis, the horse has been beaten, shot, cremated and buried. Somehow, as in a miracle, it keeps resurrecting itself. It gets beaten, shot, etc, yet it somehow is able to keep re-appearing. I am only familiar with one resurrection, yet this one keeps repeating itself. Must be somebody else's
work......................Satan perhaps??

J.R.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

You are absolutely wrong on that statement - just because you have a slower 60' because you tripped the it with the back tires or anything else doesn't mean that you will be slower in the 330. the 330 will always tell you - 60' can vary depending what tripped the clock

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

My time slips prove you are absolutely wrong.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

This thread has taught me the value 330' number.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

your 330 numbers change to the negative when tripping the 60 with the back tires.
you've tested back to back same track conditions and weather.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

post em we all posted ours lets see this JESUS CHRIST SUPER STAR WANNA BE SUPER STOCKER !! This thing probably floats over the 60 foot timers as good as he THINKS he is!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Well I have time slips to prove that you are wrong in your statement . My car will carry the front tires past the 60' quite often and always run as quick or quicker to the 330' even though the 60' will be slower. If the 60' had an imaginary vertical line that you crossed with the front tires above the 60' beam and you had a slower 60' time because the beam was broke by back tire , does not mean you will have a slower 330' time .

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

My post #68 from over a week ago.

Some people just can't grasp what is really happening on the track and just draw the wrong conclusions.

Stan

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

;)...

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

It's worth noting that 60' beam placement is normally about 10" above track. In this position it's not only the front or rear tire that can trip the beam. Depending on how the car leaves it may not even be the same location on the tire tripping it every time.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I'm having a very hard time understanding this 60ft change to ET change thing. Now, if you were to tell me that your car slows down in ET with a big wheelie, then yes, I would agree that you are going to have a slower 60ft by tripping the beam with a different part of the car, and you'll have a slower ET because that's how the car acts. However, to say that the 60ft clock itself has an effect on the ET, that is what I can't figure out. Bear with me, I am just a "kid," but the timer is activated once the starting line beams are broken, and as each photocell down track is "tripped," the corresponding time from the start is recorded. And the MPH works by finding the velocity given the time to travel between the speed trap and the corresponding ET trap. If a car were not to slow any ET by tripping the 60ft clock with either the front or ear tire, the 330 time should be the same. What will change is the 60ft - 330ft interval. Sometimes intervals can show some interesting things.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

This^^^^^
Especially on a car that sits lower in the front to begin with. Depending on where i come down from the wheelie it could be the front bumper, it could be a header collector, it could be the door. In my opinion, the 330 time is a more accurate measurment of how quick the final ET will be.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

as I've stated numerous times here

it's not for those that don't adjust their wheelie for changing weather throughout the day as I do. My car breaks the beam exactly at the same location EVERY pass, evident by not only photos and videos but the time slip that shows a few thousands variance in 60 foot over the entire event!

That said,

how many replying here have the car that can no mind have done an A-B-A with their car on the same day, letting it fly, breaking the 60 foot beam with the back tire then tie down the front, shock extension on full tight, travel limiter set for the minimum tire drop an make a pass with no more than a few inches of day light under the front tires?

We know Stan hasn't :rolleyes: as well most others replying here!

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I have, but you called me clueless . I'm not saying your car or my car is the right or wrong way just showing different sides of my real world experiences. And that every car is not the same. My timeslips prove in my situation my car does not slow down, it runs about the same et big wheelie or little wheelie . Now my car tied down is way slower to the 60' for some reason.

I have also caught something like the front bumper before or the deflector etc. from a bounce , and have had a faster 60 foot and a slower 330' just different examples 60' can change and car still run same number because where the 60 foot is catching the car like explained above.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

Post your A-B-A time slips from the same day where you have done what I stated. I'd also like to see a photo of your shocks and limiter


https://i.imgur.com/ctz90Vll.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nTy0R5Gl.jpg

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I know your mission is to get clicks on the site for the boss but just give up on this and go to another thread.


60 foot times means nothing to a stock suspension when you do big wheelies,330 does

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I don't have nor done the A-B-A same day test. Seeing you are so passionate on the subject. Share your A-B-A time slips from the same day.

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

I posted my experiences earlier. And have talked about it. I honestly am done here. If I ever see you at the track you are more than welcome to look at all my data and car anytime .

Re: ET with and without wheelie.
 

so you can't, no surprise. You should have been done with this thread along ago.