Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Dwight,

What makes you think I DIDN'T go to sleep while writing that over-long, wordy, diatribe???? :)

Lord knows, there was plenty of opportunity. I actually tried to borrow some NoDoz from Bobby, but, he said he'd need them this weekend at Gilliam. We old guys need a nap, now and then, you know...

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

OK, Bill, I will answer your question but I must have misread your post I thought your main concern was that the turbos can be adjusted to produce more boost and this should not be allowed. I now see that your complaint is how often turbo cars qualify #1. I will do some research and get back with you as soon as I can. I can tell you you are way off base here though. Now if you were complaining about how often Bob Dennis qualified #1 you might have a case! I really don't know why it bothers you so much though, it means nothing anymore. No points, no money, no trophy, no plaque, Occasionally it means a bye in round one, that's it. Back with you soon. Jim

Dwight,
I like the way you think, thanks.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's odd that a guy who is constantly near the top of qualifying (often #1) is pleading for others to protect his combo. First, he didn't exactly help the cause himself. Also if he is constantly towards the top, maybe his combo needs HP. I'm not saying not to strive for maximum performance, just don't cry when it leads to more factor.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

OK Bill,
Here you go. Using DRC, NHRA stats, and Joe's Stats I have come up with an answer for you. Going back to the begining of season 2004 and up to today, there have been 365 (I may have missed one or two) NHRA races where Stock has been contested, both National events and Divisional races. Out of those 365 races, Turbo cars have qualified #1 23 times. 4 of those were me. Charles Blossom has done it twice this year and he is the only turbo car this year to qualify #1. Bill this works out to right at 6% of the races in the last 5 years had turbo cars qualify #1. This is a far cry from your projected 20%. I await your answer. Jim

BTW Bob Dennis has qualified #1 more times than all turbo cars combined in the last 5 years!!!! (including this weekend)

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Jim,

.A clarification is in order, here.

Yes, I am concerned that the turbo cars qualify #1 so very often (a lot more than their numbers would suggest should be appropriate) in that, I don't think that a lot of the cars that get shunted out of a #1 spot are lesser race cars in terms of preparation and time spent on R & D, compared with the boosted cars that are gaining the @1 position. Why is 90+-percent of the field (the normally-aspirated cars) playing second-fiddle to two or three percent of the field, twenty-percent of the time???? Makes no logical sense to me...

That is just my opinion, however, and means nothing beyond that.

BUT, I am highly suspicious that the forced induction cars that so often run far enough under their indexes to qualify number one are doing it at boost levels never seen in the facrory dyno cells, during SAE-number testing for "advertised horsepower."

A telltale boost gauge on the car(s) in question would prove me wrong, IF I am wrong.

How else will we ever know?

So, it's a two-pronged question, but inexorably intertwined.

I hope that clears up my contention, here.


To save you some time, here is a list of turbocharged cars with the name of the race, ,driver's name, class, and qualifying "under the index" time. I've included both national events and a couple of Sportsnationals, because the Sportsnationals are truly "national events" for Sportsmen, and these are Sportsman cars.

I also included two instances wherein turbo cars qualified #1 and $2 because I thought that was significant, given the relative scarcity of turbos in Stock Eliminator.

For the year 2004:
Belle Rose Ed O'Brien B/FS -1.374
Bristol Marty Buth K/FIA -1.218
Brainerd Tom Brook A/FS -1.385

For the year 2005
Belle Rose Jim Wahl C/FS -1.422
(#2 Belle Rose Bob Shaw) U/SA - 1.337
Brainerd Tom Brook B/FS -1.229
Pomona II Bill Howell D/FS -1.457

For the year 2006
Pomona I . Bill Howell D/FS -1.383
Brainerd Chas. Blossom A/FS -1.248
Pomona II Herbert Pierce C/FS -1.347

For the year 2007
Pomona I Bill Howel C/FS -1.321
Denver Tom Brook B/FS -1.586 (!)
Indy Chas. Blossom A/FS -1.468
Indy (#2 Marty Buth) J FI/A -1.296
Hebron Spts Rob Lloyd C/FS --1.588
Fontana Spts Mark Yacavonne U/S -1.194

Okay, that's fourteen #1 qualified turbo cars and two #2 qualifiers (runners-up to other turbo cars) in the last four years.

You're right; that's not 20 percent, but it's over fifteen percent.

If fifteen percent of an average nationnal event's Stockers were turbo cars, there would be a LOT of turbo cars running; maybe 20-plus at Indy. Probably eight or ten at a smaller race, such as Brainerd.

There are not.

That is my point. Most national events will have possibly three or four turbo cars, but they qualify #1 over fifteeen percent of the time.

Not right....

HOW DO THEY DO IT???????

Boost.... Lots of it... :)

My 2-cents....

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

My contention was about national events. You included points races that I had not made any reference to.

My previous post includes only national event qualifiers (unless you want to disallow the SportsNationals) and those national events is where my concern was based.

Over fifteen percent is a far cry from the demographics of the Eliminator, in regards to what percent of the cars are turbocharged.

That's my point, whether you think that has any significance, or not...

I do.

Thanks for your input; I do appreciate it!

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Bill,
I give up. Lets just ban all turbo cars because it upsets you. While we are at it lets ban all cars with Holley carbs because you can change jets and put more fuel in the motor than factory specs, and that upsets me. I don't think RWD cars should be allowed to run anything but a factory offered ring and pinion. That upsets me to. Non spec computers upset me.

I went way out of my way to offer you the whole big picture as far as your question was concerned but you want to cherry pick your stats. Nope I don't accept your stats. The REAL WORLD stats are less than 6%. Once again I say to you, if you really believe that turbo cars are at such an advantage, jump right in! Bill, my point here is virtually everything about race cars are more or better than factory spec. That is what makes them competitive. Bob Dennis qualifies #1 at more than 50% of the races he enters! Bitch about him. Who cares Bill? I'm finished with this now. Jim

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Jim Wahl said:

>>>> I give up. Let's just ban all turbo cars because it upsets you.

It doesn't upset me; it makes me think that when 2 or 3 percent of the cars win over 15-percent of the #1 qualifying slots at national events, there's something amiss. I can't imagine that you wouldn't agree.


>>>> While we are at it lets ban all cars with Holley carbs because you can change jets and put more fuel in the motor than factory specs, and that upsets me.

But, you said you didn't care what screws were turned on carbs... has that changed?

>>>> I don't think RWD cars should be allowed to run anything but a factory offered ring and pinion. That upsets me to. Non spec computers upset me.

Why are you advocating equipment changes? I have never advocated ANY equipment change, just the addition of a gauge.


>>>> I went way out of my way to offer you the whole big picture as far as your question was concerned but you want to cherry pick your stats.

No, you changed the subject of the discussion from national event qualifying to include ALL racing, which was never a part of my contention. I NEVER mentioned points races, because there hasn't been the problem at points races that exists at national events.

I didn't cherry pick anything. I included the national event stats from EVERY NATIONAL EVENT for 2004, thru 2007. No cherry picking, just national events (ALL: of them) that were pertinent to the subject matter: #1 qualifiers at national events.

>>>> Nope I don't accept your stats. The REAL WORLD stats are less than 6%.

Not for national events. You want to throw in races that have no pertinence with this argument; Points races were never mentioned,in this discussion by EITHER of us, just national events because THAT IS WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES. Introducing statistics from the Lucas Oil Series of Points Races is totally outside the framework of this argument. The qualifying anomalies that exist at the national event level are not apparent at points races. NO problem, there. Does that mean we can't consider national events as an entity unto itself? I don't think so....



>>>> Once again I say to you, if you really believe that turbo cars are at such an advantage, jump right in! Bill, my point here is virtually everything about race cars are more or better than factory spec


I wouldn't ever run a turbo car because they are too hard to dial. That is not a problem in qualifying, however, and doesn't keep them from qualifying #1, inordinately (percentage-wise, at national events.).

>>>> That is what makes them competitive. Bob Dennis qualifies #1 at more than 50% of the races he enters! Bitch about him. Who cares Bill?

I have NO quarrel with Bob Dennis and what he does. Qualifying #1 with a car that depends on boost for its power is always a sitting duck for speculation. Bob Dennis has no such Achilles Heel.

>>>>I'm finished with this now.

Thank you for your input, Jim. Your inability to explain why two or three percent of the cars running Stock Eliminator (the turbo cars) should be earning over fifteen percent of the #1 qualifying slots at NATIONAL EVENTS tells me that either 1. You don't comprehend the inequity here, 2. Your deep involvement with turbo cars skews your judgment, or 3. You KNOW, but you rationalize that since these cars are so hard to dial, let's give them SOMETHING (like the top qualifying position) in lieu of a win. )

I hope it's not #3.

I appreciate very much the time you took to make your case, here; it is always nice talking to you.

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

I guess you missed my point again Bill. To bad you don't recognize sarcasm when you see it. I have to hand it to you, you can spin and cherry pick with the best of them! You should be a politician. Look Bill it's real simple. Turbo guys don't do anything more to gain performance than non turbo guys do. They take completely legal factory equipment and try to get the most performance out of it they can, sort of like advancing a distributor further than factory settings or jetting a carb richer than factory specs or installing a different rear end ratio than was available from the factory or putting the cam in at a different spec than a factory cam or doing a different valve job than the factory spec, on and on and on. The point that you just plain don't like turbo cars does not make the fact that the turbos are adjustable illegal! Turbos are adjustable, distributors are adjustable, carbs are adjustable, cams are adjustable. get the point? There is nothing illegal with adjusting these types of equipment to your advantage. The fact also remains that more turbo cars qualify below the 50th percentile than qualify in the top 10.

Now I want to go on the record , I have no problem with Bob Dennis either, in fact I think he is amazing and consider him a friend. However if you really had a problem with any single entity qualifying in the #1 position disproportionally, you would have a problem with him.

Now as you may or may not know I ran a FWD Cadillac Cimarron many years ago. One year I qualified #1 at 5 different NATIONAL events including Indy. At that time there were only two Cadillac Cimarrons in the country. At that time also there were only 20 National events. That means that combo in that year qualified #1 at 25% of the National events. This was NOT a turbo car. Now this car was completely legal and I set the record with this car 5 times and was torn down 19 times in 18 years. Tell me what you would try and limit on this car?

Turbo cars are legal and are taking the same advantage of factory parts that ALL other combos are doing and NOTHING more. Admit it Bill, you ARE a turbophobe! There is help available for you. Jim

Re: to all 85-92 efi racers
 

Jim,

Thanks you for your psychological analysis of my state of mind. For a "turbophobe," I have some strange habits.... my best car buddies here have a loosely-knit club that meets for breakfast every Saturday. The single thing about these guys that causes them to hang together is that they ALL drive and race turbo Buicks. They let me hang around because my car is a self-built, Vortech-blown Mopar ('72 Valiant, 360 Magnum.) I can probably outrun some of them... but, not all. Thirty pounds of boost is hard to get around...

Some set of friends for a "turbophobe," eh???

I know of two road race organizations whose sanctioning bodies require the use of telltale boost gauges on forced-induction cars in competition. There are probably more; I just ran across those two while surfing the 'net one day. Why do you think they require those?

Your Cimarron, and Bob Dennis's cars are VERY impressive, but they did it all without boost. Hard work coupled with excellent race-track savvy will get you there. A soft HP factor and / or, a cooperative index doesn't hurt.

But, these cars I cited can't ALL be under-rated, and running off soft indexes. Hard to believe that ALL o f those turbo cars' owners are that smart.... but, what's the ONE THING that can catapult an also-ran into an index-smashing STAR?

Increased boost...

That is why I am of the opinion that the boost levels in these cars are not what they were when they left the factory. And, they need to be. Normally-aspirated cars, as I have pointed out, only have the same sort of barometric pressure that was present at their SAE HP dyno pull to utilize at a race. Turbo cars make their OWN "barometric pressure." Or, at least, the pressure present at the back side of the intake valve.

To reiterate:
"Your inability to explain why two or three percent of the cars running Stock Eliminator (the turbo cars) should be earning over fifteen percent of the #1 qualifying slots at NATIONAL EVENTS" is telling.

These guys aren't Bob Dennis... They're not Jim Wahl... They are a varierty of people with one common thread: Unrestricted boost from their turbochargers.

I feel that needs to be fixed.

As an aside, I was going to turbocharge the motor in my Valiant, but there's not much room for plumbing under the hood of that A body, so I went the belt-driven route. Sure feels good, when the boost gauge starts its climb... :)

Have a good weekend!!!