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-   -   Crate Motor Class (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=15088)

Nmbr1GMfan 06-30-2017 05:32 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Talk about a thread bump!

Billy Nees 06-30-2017 06:43 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
What ever. Crate Motor, ET-2, same difference.

Alan Roehrich 06-30-2017 07:01 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 538585)
What ever. Crate Motor, ET-2, same difference.

Now Billy........

Everett Vassar 06-30-2017 07:08 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 99101)
NHRA Stock Eliminator already has more than enough classes.

We already have AA/SA thru W/SA and AA/S thru W/S, plus A thru E front wheel drive automatic and stick classes. That's 56 classes in one eliminator.

Why would we need or want to add another 16-20 classes?

A crate motor is just a different engine you have to round up parts for and pay a professional to build. The only difference is you can go to the dealer and buy the parts instead of beating the brush pile.

We already have tons of accepted aftermarket "replacement parts" that have to be constantly refactored. Blocks, heads, intakes, carburetors, you name it. Some of them aren't even sold by the original manufacturer, much less made by them.

We already have enough bogus combinations and under factored combinations to choke a horse. There's no need to add to the pile. We already have enough classes that anyone who wants to can build a car and never see another like it all year, and probably never see a heads up race or a race to win class. We don't need to add to that pile either.

We already have a truck load of stuff NHRA evidently cannot properly handle a technical inspection on, and enough questionable standards to last any dozen tech men who want to do their job a life time.
NAILED IT!

Actually I do have a 96 camaro that would make an excellent CM stkr. ...there just aren't enough IHRA tracks around here.

Mark Yacavone 06-30-2017 07:09 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Talk about a trip down memory lane..I AM going to read through this again. But, in the meanwhile, I can't imagine I've changed my opinion much.
I'm sure I can suggest ways to make Stock interesting again, without bringing in a bunch of cars that no one knows what the heck is under the hood of.

Ed Wright 06-30-2017 07:12 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Carpenter (Post 99903)
Some people are saying NHRA needs crate motor cars because of car counts. I looked today and the winternationals looks pretty full to me in S/SS. I haven't raced at an NHRA event yet(I will in April at Dallas if work allows). I have spectated at numerous D4 races and I can tell you alot more guys turn out in S/SS at those races than the IHRA races I have raced in D4. I don't know about the rest of the country.
You are correct Ed. I tried to run both a couple of years ago. Not one IHRA race that year had when anybody I know would consider a full field of SS cars. I remember 9 SS cars last one I went to. I was treated well, officials were very friendly. Got one insufficient check. Felt sorry for them, having no car count. Just tore it up. Thought they may need it more than I did. Almost no contingency sponsors, low payouts, I could not really afford to race often enough to run both series anyway.

larrylomascolo 06-30-2017 09:27 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Why did this thread wake up,from2009 or am I wrong

Mark Yacavone 06-30-2017 10:10 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birch motor cars (Post 538580)
Very well said. I get so tired of these guys harking about the CM Class cars. Im all for it and I as well have one that Im putting together a motor for. My car ran in as a G\CM car in its day, now Im the new owner bringing it back to the track as the same.
Tell us more about the car. We'll help you, so you can run it anywhere in the country.

SSDiv6 06-30-2017 10:50 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Can't wait for Alan Roehrich to put his favorite Meme picture...
:D:D:D:D:D

TommyPettigrew3076 07-01-2017 12:38 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
I hate to be the *** here but NHRA already has a crate motor class it's called " Pro " and " Super Pro " at your local track bracket program ( dropping the mic )

Crew Chief 07-01-2017 07:05 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
What are you guys gripping about? NHRA has Crate Motor classes. They just call them by a different name. They are called Factory Stock, Factory Super Stock and Factory Super Stock GT. The cars in those classes do NOT have production line street legal engines that you can drive off the showroom floor and be licensed. That's the way NHRA decided to have "Crate Motor" classes and with the number of cars showing up to race, it seems to be a huge success.

Wanna go "Crate Motor" racing at NHRA with your Chevy...stick a COPO engine in your Camaro. Same theory works for Mopar with a Drag Pac engine or a Cobrajet in your Ford. You will be racing in a "Crate Motor" class, just with a different name.

SSGN 07-02-2017 07:49 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
[QUOTE=Crew Chief;538639]What are you guys gripping about? NHRA has Crate Motor classes. They just call them by a different name. They are called Factory Stock, Factory Super Stock and Factory Super Stock GT. The cars in those classes do NOT have production line street legal engines that you can drive off the showroom floor and be licensed. That's the way NHRA decided to have "Crate Motor" classes and with the number of cars showing up to race, it seems to be a huge success.

Wanna go "Crate Motor" racing at NHRA with your Chevy...stick a COPO engine in your Camaro. Same theory works for Mopar with a Drag Pac engine or a Cobrajet in your Ford. You will be racing in a "Crate Motor" class, just with a different name

NHRA just put a very expensive twist to its crate motor class. This is sad but true.

Billy Nees 07-02-2017 07:54 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 538585)
What ever. Crate Motor, ET-2, same difference.
and soon, everyone will have Edelbrock intakes, roller cams and no teardowns.

Alan Roehrich 07-02-2017 12:12 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSDiv6 (Post 538597)
Can't wait for Alan Roehrich to put his favorite Meme picture...
:D:D:D:D:D
LOL.


I've mellowed in my old age.

Barry Polley 07-02-2017 12:57 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
The changes to PS didn't bring in any cars and it hurt car counts. The recent schedule change will help them more than the flat hood, injection, RPM and wheelie bar ever did. I guess you want to do the same to an already cool class. Leave stock alone...

Billy Nees 07-02-2017 04:23 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Polley (Post 538672)
Leave stock alone...
That train left the station years ago.

Bob Mulry 07-02-2017 05:33 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
I still don't get Crate Motor or the attraction to it......

If you build a POS slow Crate Motor racecar or you build a POS slow NHRA Stock Eliminator racecar there is no difference.....

Now understand what I mean by SLOW. SLOW is the performance vs. the racecars index.....

There would still have to be tech (that's if anybody gives a crap about legal racecars), so what is the advantage of a Crate Motor racecar????

If you don't build a good one ($$$$$$$$), in a heads up race you come in second...

OR

Is that part of the plan, to do away with heads-up??????

Just my 2 cents on again muddying the waters that we call NHRA Stock Eliminator....

Bob

PS:
I still don't get it...

KEN BUGAJ 07-04-2017 02:25 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
POS crate motor cars ! There are a number of PK , Wiscarver, Pete Z , Plage,Sloan, car's out there. I wouldn't be so fast with the POS stuff.

Bob Mulry 07-04-2017 03:42 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN BUGAJ (Post 538790)
POS crate motor cars ! There are a number of PK , Wiscarver, Pete Z , Plage,Sloan, car's out there. I wouldn't be so fast with the POS stuff.
Obviously you didn't read my post or chose to only look at only one sentence...

I didn't say that Crate Motor cars are a POS.....

I said that IF you build a POS Crate Motor car or you build a POS Stock class car you will have a slow car.

If you want to build a fast Crate Motor or a fast Stock Eliminator car then have at it......

Fast = $$$$$$$$

No matter what you build......

So why build a fast ($$$$$) Crate Motor car and not a fast ($$$$$) Stock Eliminator car???????????????????

Ed Wright 07-04-2017 04:37 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Why would somebody build a car for a class that one Association does not support, then want that other group to add their class? Why not build a car that fits both places to begin with?

Billy Nees 07-04-2017 05:28 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 538801)
Why would somebody build a car for a class that one Association does not support, then want that other group to add their class? Why not build a car that fits both places to begin with?
Wow Ed, when you put it that way it sounds very "progressive" to me. If you know what I mean.

Ed Wright 07-04-2017 05:56 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Nees (Post 538802)
Wow Ed, when you put it that way it sounds very "progressive" to me. If you know what I mean.
I thought expecting somebody else to provide a class for you sounded progressive. LOL

HR9121 07-04-2017 06:28 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 538803)
I thought expecting somebody else to provide a class for you sounded progressive. LOL
It just ain't fair!

PozQB14 07-05-2017 09:06 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Mulry (Post 538799)
Obviously you didn't read my post or chose to only look at only one sentence...

I didn't say that Crate Motor cars are a POS.....

I said that IF you build a POS Crate Motor car or you build a POS Stock class car you will have a slow car.

If you want to build a fast Crate Motor or a fast Stock Eliminator car then have at it......

Fast = $$$$$$$$

No matter what you build......

So why build a fast ($$$$$) Crate Motor car and not a fast ($$$$$) Stock Eliminator car???????????????????
Have you personally priced the cost of what it would take to build a POS crate motor? If you want to compare costs of a crate motor build and a A/SA build call me, I have them both in my garage. The crate motor leaves a lot more money in your pocket and your much further under the index.

Bob Mulry 07-05-2017 12:44 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PozQB14 (Post 538826)
Have you personally priced the cost of what it would take to build a POS crate motor? If you want to compare costs of a crate motor build and a A/SA build call me, I have them both in my garage. The crate motor leaves a lot more money in your pocket and your much further under the index.

I figure that a POS Crate Motor would be pretty cheap....

But on the other hand.....

Building a kick *** and fast Crate Motor would cost a lot of $$$$$, just like a fast Stock Eliminator Engine....

It seems that a few people have had a problem comprehending what my first statement said....

For those you that don't or didn't or don't want to get it, I will clarify my earlier statement.....

I never said that Crate Motor Class cars are a POS, but rather if you want to build a good and fast racecar that is your choice. If you want to a POS that is also your choice..

The fast guys will be fast and slow guys will be slow, it's a choice everybody has to make as to their level of commitment to performance..

To restate the facts:
I never said that Crate Motor Cars are a POS, just that people have a choice in what they build. You can build a POS or a National Record holding racecar or anything in between.....

Get over it....

Bob

PS:
Under the index don't mean crap in a heads up race or on a dial in

PozQB14 07-05-2017 12:55 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Mulry (Post 538834)

I figure that a POS Crate Motor would be pretty cheap....

But on the other hand.....

Building a kick *** and fast Crate Motor would cost a lot of $$$$$, just like a fast Stock Eliminator Engine....

It seems that a few people have had a problem comprehending what my first statement said....

For those you that don't or didn't or don't want to get it, I will clarify my earlier statement.....

I never said that Crate Motor Class cars are a POS, but rather if you want to build a good and fast racecar that is your choice. If you want to a POS that is also your choice..

The fast guys will be fast and slow guys will be slow, it's a choice everybody has to make as to their level of commitment to performance..

To restate the facts:
I never said that Crate Motor Cars are a POS, just that people have a choice in what they build. You can build a POS or a National Record holding racecar or anything in between.....

Get over it....

Bob

PS:
Under the index don't mean crap in a heads up race or on a dial in
I understood what you were saying, if you want to be fast, itll cost lots of money. I guess I wasn't really clear either. Basically im saying you can be the fastest crate motor car (which there are plenty of combos) and it will be significantly cheaper than building the fastest NHRA legal stocker motor these days.

Bruce Noland 07-05-2017 02:46 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
The crate motors being discussed are for the new OEM motors which would necessitate new classes. They appear to have no interest in any of the current IHRA style crate motors classes. Just more toys for the OEMs.

Bpozzi 07-05-2017 04:10 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Mulry (Post 538834)

I figure that a POS Crate Motor would be pretty cheap....

But on the other hand.....

Building a kick *** and fast Crate Motor would cost a lot of $$$$$, just like a fast Stock Eliminator Engine....

It seems that a few people have had a problem comprehending what my first statement said....

For those you that don't or didn't or don't want to get it, I will clarify my earlier statement.....

I never said that Crate Motor Class cars are a POS, but rather if you want to build a good and fast racecar that is your choice. If you want to a POS that is also your choice..

The fast guys will be fast and slow guys will be slow, it's a choice everybody has to make as to their level of commitment to performance..

To restate the facts:
I never said that Crate Motor Cars are a POS, just that people have a choice in what they build. You can build a POS or a National Record holding racecar or anything in between.....

Get over it....

Bob

PS:
Under the index don't mean crap in a heads up race or on a dial in
Bob, with all due respect and I may be ignorant here, but how does under the index mean "crap" in a heads up race? If 2 of the same class cars , granted they are IHRA crate motor cars not NHRA crate
Motor cars (most all factory stock cars, that can be furthered argued later and mean no disrespect to FS owners) line up to make a heads up run... wouldn't logic say the car that runs further under the index for that class have higher chance of winning? Also, how many guys under the age of 40 do you know competing in this sport right now that can afford to build any "nhra" specific fast class car? a fast crate motor car (fast = how far under the index) is fairly inexpensive to build and run. Achieving 7-8 tenths under the index is completely attainable on a youngsters budget. I say that to go back to a point made many threads back..... when all the old guys with money move on and retire, the young guys that can afford crate motor cars and have fun will still be around...... I guess they will just give there money to IHRA. I respect your views, but I argue that anyone that works hard and is able to put a class designation on the window of there car shouldn't have there car/motor/class called a POS regardless if it barely runs the index or a second under and spends 6 figures on a motor program.

Michael Beard 07-05-2017 04:48 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
I won a World Championship, set national records, and both won and lost heads-up runs in Stock with my POS crate motor car, then turned it into a POS Super Stock car and won a Super Stock World Championship and a couple of Wallys.

Bob Mulry 07-05-2017 05:01 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpozzi (Post 538846)
Bob, with all due respect and I may be ignorant here, but how does under the index mean "crap" in a heads up race? If 2 of the same class cars , granted they are IHRA crate motor cars not NHRA crate
Motor cars (most all factory stock cars, that can be furthered argued later and mean no disrespect to FS owners) line up to make a heads up run... wouldn't logic say the car that runs further under the index for that class have higher chance of winning? Also, how many guys under the age of 40 do you know competing in this sport right now that can afford to build any "nhra" specific fast class car? a fast crate motor car (fast = how far under the index) is fairly inexpensive to build and run. Achieving 7-8 tenths under the index is completely attainable on a youngsters budget. I say that to go back to a point made many threads back..... when all the old guys with money move on and retire, the young guys that can afford crate motor cars and have fun will still be around...... I guess they will just give there money to IHRA. I respect your views, but I argue that anyone that works hard and is able to put a class designation on the window of there car shouldn't have there car/motor/class called a POS regardless if it barely runs the index or a second under and spends 6 figures on a motor program.
I'll slow it down for you.....

You build what you want, when you want because that's the beauty of racing. If you don't care about performance, just build a car that will run under the index. There have been many World Champions that have taken that route. They gamble that there won't be a heads-up with a faster racecar and usually there isn't.

If it costs $20,000 for a killer NHRA Stock Eliminator Engine and it cost $2000 to build a killer Crate Engine, then all of the people with $20,000 or $2000 will have killer motors in their own Eliminator...

In a heads up race the only thing that counts is who gets there first, with a green light with legal fuel and weight....

You find out what the car in the opposite lane has for you when the tree comes down...

So apples to apples and oranges to oranges whoever has the bigger commitment (money, knowledge, time or whatever) to the project, will be the faster car in relation to their index or record or whatever yardstick you wish to use....

As for under the index, the IHRA has a different set of numbers than the NHRA and a whole lot more classes. In IHRA racing it appears that the chance of a heads-up in IHRA is less then in NHRA racing...

Even at INDY there are a lot of single car classes and that is with over 200 entries.

So the reason that Crate Motors are popular is because you can be faster against your own index than a Stock Eliminator car can be??????

By the way if you wanted to build a fast car vs. the index, why wouldn't try a lower class Stock Eliminator car??????

That way your dollar would go further without the need for a lot of exotic ($$$$) parts..

I mean no disrespect to the lower class cars (I race a J, K & L/SA), because they can be very fast against the index.....

How much does it cost to build a competitive heads up type engine in a Crate Motor class????

The cost of an engine is a very small piece of the complete racecar....

Have at it and whatever puts a smile on your face is the correct answer.

Bob

PozQB14 07-05-2017 05:34 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Noland (Post 538842)
The crate motors being discussed are for the new OEM motors which would necessitate new classes. They appear to have no interest in any of the current IHRA style crate motors classes. Just more toys for the OEMs.
Bruce can you elaborate? What new OEM crate motors are available? I know that IHRA and maybe NHRA (not sure) created a factory GT class for SS that uses the new factory motors in older cars.

FLEMING 07-06-2017 10:44 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
I am so thankfull these types of posts pop up every so often to remind me not to jump off the deep end and go stocker racing like I have always wanted..lol

Dan Fahey 07-06-2017 11:51 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Think Crate Motor Class needs a bit of rethinking.
It was a smart evolution for Stock.

In fact wrote an article promoting Crate Motors in Super Stock Drag Illustrated, August 1993 edition.

My opinion but do not like tunnel rams, or any carb or intake on a Crate Motor.
That took it too far but is what it is.

US big 3 plus America Motors made factory replacement engines.
Even creating a few for the performance market.
Idea was to get updated engines out there replacing the well worn versions, some with hard to get pieces.

It added a little diversity to the Stock Eliminator concept.
Interesting that you can put a SBC in a Vega or SBF in Pinto.
Now that would make a good heads up race.

D

Todd Hoven 07-06-2017 11:55 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Delete.

Todd Hoven 07-06-2017 11:57 AM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
I've never raced any IHRA events, I hope to once to twice in the future.
My guess is that an IHRA compeditor builds a crate car to bracket race and class race on a budget. If it ever gets implemented in NHRA it will only be a short time before the budget gets raised significantly. A guy who has money and desires to run fast will turn one of these into a max effort deal and spend nearly as much money in the crate engine as he does in a traditional stock class engine. Then the budget guy will be far back and still racing IHRA mostly and out classed performance wise buy guys that lived to work on their cars and to go fast for a lifetime.

I'd dump all my Pontiac stuff right in the nearest river in a second, if we could put any engine in our cars. The NHRA laughs at me when I'm looking for a replacement cylinder head for my combo that is 40 years old and very hard to find specific parts. Be nice to buy new stuff and cut it up to to fast.

My guess is we are at the end of Stock as we know it. Soon the heads up will be eliminated along with all tech. Then all of this will be a mute point. Then I'll race bracket 2 much closer to home and on a budget. Or just stop all together and save some money for something better.

Bob Mulry 07-06-2017 12:12 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Hoven (Post 538895)
I've never raced any IHRA events, I hope to once to twice in the future.
My guess is that an IHRA compeditor builds a crate car to bracket race and class race on a budget. If it ever gets implemented in NHRA it will only be a short time before the budget gets raised significantly. A guy who has money and desires to run fast will turn one of these into a max effort deal and spend nearly as much money in the crate engine as he does in a traditional stock class engine. Then the budget guy will be far back and still racing IHRA mostly and out classed performance wise buy guys that lived to work on their cars and to go fast for a lifetime.

I'd dump all my Pontiac stuff right in the nearest river in a second, if we could put any engine in our cars. The NHRA laughs at me when I'm looking for a replacement cylinder head for my combo that is 40 years old and very hard to find specific parts. Be nice to buy new stuff and cut it up to to fast.

My guess is we are at the end of Stock as we know it. Soon the heads up will be eliminated along with all tech. Then all of this will be a mute point. Then I'll race bracket 2 much closer to home and on a budget. Or just stop all together and save some money for something better.
You're Right...........

NO class.....

NO heads up.....

NO tech......

NO records.....

NO tear downs.....

NO rules......

NO performance....

NO reason to race.........

Joey Bohannon 07-06-2017 04:04 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Get over it folks, 97% of the time we are all bracket racers.

Todd Hoven 07-06-2017 04:46 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Bohannon (Post 538916)
Get over it folks, 97% of the time we are all bracket racers.
Your point?

Dan Fahey 07-07-2017 12:47 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Bohannon (Post 538916)
Get over it folks, 97% of the time we are all bracket racers.
Big Difference

We have to build a car that requires thinking and tuning the whole
Vehicle to qualify.
Then built a competitive car to be consistent and reliable.
Just cannot throw stuff together.

What is cool about stock are the odd combinations.
A U/SA Ford is in the 12's today. In the 80's that was O/SA territory.
Stock thrives because of racers figuring out how to make thier ride fast.
With what it came with under the hood.

Aside that we are handicapped by class.
That is the only similarity to Racket Racing.
D

Jeff Niceswanger 07-07-2017 01:34 PM
Re: Crate Motor Class
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Bohannon (Post 538916)
Get over it folks, 97% of the time we are all bracket racers.
And the other 3 % is why 97 % of us race this class in the first place .....


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