Re: my opinion
 

[QUOTE=Jeff Lee;
It would seem this type of "Pro-Sportsman" racer could be defined as a "professional". As I demonstrated earlier, some "individual" sports (golf, bowling, maybe even fishing) have standards that separate the "sportsman" (or amateur), from the "professional" ranks. NHRA does not seem to separate the two. In fact, it is part of your language.
In fact, NHRA allows "professional" racers (think Pro-Stock multi-time national champion Jeg Caughlin and others) to compete against "Sportsman" racers. Does that practice seem equitable to you?

Apparently I have more faith in my capabilities as a driver and tuner than you do! I don't have a problem with racing anybody! They all pull their pants on the same way that I do.

Re: my opinion
 

Michael,
Your smart enough, I don't take you for stupid. If we indeed are "Sportsman" and are somehow separated from "Professional" since NHRA does indeed have these labels, a professional (by NHRA definition) should not be mixing it up with "Sportsmen" racers. As I explained earlier, there are many areas I believe differentiate one from the other and I would bet the IRS would agree with me. That is the "problem". The solution? That should be apparent. Don't allow professionals to compete against sportsmen.
Now I suppose some here have an ego that would encourage this mingling, as in, "wow, I beat Jeg Coughlin with my Gremlin today". I guess that would make one a hero. But the adverse is true, "dang, my Gremlin got beat by a full time professional pro-stock driver today".

I've explained my position until my fingers are blue. Can't offer any more and obviously a few here disagree with what I'm trying to point out and some don't even seem to understand what I'm saying. Since I make a living selling houses and writing contracts, I find that confusing. But so be it. I've made my case, you've made yours.
Thanks for listening and Merry Christmas.

Re: my opinion
 

Your words,not mine are the basis for my opinion of you and Don.

Can't offer any more and obviously a few here disagree with what I'm trying to point out and some don't even seem to understand what I'm saying.
A few??????????????? That's a real Clintonesque observation.

Re: my opinion
 

[QUOTE=Jeff Lee;

I've explained my position until my fingers are blue. Can't offer any more and obviously a few here disagree with what I'm trying to point out and some don't even seem to understand what I'm saying. Since I make a living selling houses and writing contracts, I find that confusing. But so be it. I've made my case, you've made yours.
Thanks for listening and Merry Christmas.[/QUOTE]

And you've finally hit the nail on the head! Some people are meant top be realtors, some crazy hermits and some very,very good drag racers! It's all in the hand that you're dealt. You have a wonderful Christmas Too (and please let us all try to remember the real meaning). Till the next time let's cordially agree to disagree.

Re: my opinion
 

Don & Jeff,

It must be real slow over at your old site S/S , last post was 11-20-09 ?
Has it shut down or what , so much for people not wanting No-names...
No-one likes to be told what to do ...... I think its great you guys have come over to the Dark side, keep it clean ?

Re: my opinion
 

This thread is still going? This is going to be a long rough winter....

Re: my opinion
 

I'd still like to hear what the definition of a professional sportsman racer is.

Is it just a fool like me or Fletch or Toby (sorry Dan and Toby!) that chose to make racing our full time job?
Is it a guy like Bertozzi who's been a very successful businessman and can get away and race more than most?

Just exactly who are you trying to keep out of your playground by not wanting pros and sportsmen to compete in the same category?

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Ok, here's my too cents, we all wish we could have the balls to try to make a go of it but we sit there and bitch, congrats to all those who've proven that the more you work the more you're lucky.(Henry Ford)

Re: my opinion
 

Well, they had to call it something and sportsman was as good a name as any I guess.

It's definitely not an amateur category though. It's been said here many times before, but if you want to get rid of the better drivers, get rid of ALL prize money and then it will be a true amateur sport.


-Toby

Re: my opinion
 

Semantics. "Sportsman" does not equal "Amateur". So... what do you do with IHRA S/SS racers, since we run the "Pro-Am" series, which was quite deliberately given that name by Bader as just another way to acknowledge the professionalism exhibited by the "sportsman" racer.

So, the problem is 1) with Pro Stock drivers running S/SS, 2) with people who claim their racing as a business running S/SS?

If 1) - again, what does driving a Pro Stock car have to do with driving in S/SS? They are totally different disciplines. Jeg and Line are exceptions to the rule who happened to be Sportsman Champions before they were Pros.
If 2) - if you seek a truly amateur status, should we race for just trophies as someone else pointed out?

Want to level the playing field? It doesn't have anything to do with Pro- Trees, Points, or Hood Scoops. It has to do with driving and strategy, both of which are learned skills.The biggest thing standing between Joe Average and the Touring Professional Sportsman racer is KNOWLEDGE. I've helped a bunch of people over the years with their driving, and will continue to do so, because I love our sport.

Re: my opinion
 

Maybe so.

So ,we're settled . The number is 14 . That's still quite a few . I don't think I ever went to 14 back in the 70's when I was racing a lot . I figure that would take about 30 + days vacation time, (not counting long distance travel to make that many).

So would those guys be Pro or Sportsman ? I don't think NHRA gives a cr*p, one way or the other.
That's just the high number they think they can suck people into ,whether they can really afford it or not.

I DO think points should be given for qualifying and records . Enough so it would actually help affect Top 10 finishes at the end of the year.
Don't you think so ,Tobe ? LOL

Re: my opinion
 

I think you mean Jeg Coughlin.

Secondly,if John Force (Full -time Professional Funny Car racer) were to drive a new Mustang in AA/SA,I would have no problem racing him,as long as its not Heads-Up!
LOL!
I think I could give him a good race.

Re: my opinion
 

Lets see if i get this right!!! I'm going to play a sport,(any sport) but i'm not good at it so lets change the rules so I can Qualify first, I get all the singles, I get all the red lights, My win light always turns on in my lane, I can just sign up when ever I what too, I should be the WORLD CHAMP IF I WIN THAT RACE!!! Well that was easy now what do i do?

Re: my opinion
 

I would venture to guess that 95 percent of the Pro racers wouldn't know where to start with a sportsman Class car and have only heard the term "bracket" racing in the pits. I would also venture to guess that most touring-pro sportsman racers started out on the divisional level, raced a lot and realized they had a knack or talent at this game we play and since we race for money, decided they could have a go trying it for a living since there is enough opportunity to make a living at it.

Guys like Mark sacrifice and risk a lot but the payback is more seat time and more opportunity to win. If you are racing and just getting by, what type of outlook is there for the future? What about things like health insurance? It is risky to put yourself in that position (unless you have serious backing, which some do) and if you have a bad year or two it can be a financial disaster. Most of us would never take that chance no matter how many races we won in a year.

But still, since we live in a free country, ANYONE can quit their job and take that chance, just like Fletcher did. This is America so don't complain and bitch about the rules, if the water is so nice then jump in. Hey, I don't like getting beat by these guys or anyone, but I realize that I can try to do what they do if I want to reach that level. I'll ask this to Jeff, would you feel any better if you got beat by a guy who is an unknown because he races, say, Heavy Eliminator, every week, or twice a week, or three times week, at local track, as some do, then jumps in a Stocker and cleans up? Most of the successful Stock drivers I know came from the bracket ranks, where they raced often and honed their skills in street bracket cars.

But how many are living the good life on S/SS winnings alone? There is lots of stress involved, if you don't make the final the pay is nil. If you break and engine or major part your profit just dropped in the toilet. If you're rig breaks you can't be out there earning. Plus, the extended time on the road has to be tough, because I'm sure they miss important family things like kid's birthdays and such.

I give those guys credit because that is no easy way to make a living.

Re: my opinion
 

Evan is 100% right.
To all the whiners out there. This is a free country You can decide to go race for a living anytime you choose.
Instead of trying to belittle successful racers. Try to learn from them.
That is becoming a big problem in all aspects of our lives. It is easier the try to bring down
those who achieve success to our level, than to pick up our pace.

Re: my opinion
 

Let's differentiate between "successful" and "better". An earlier poster alluded to the fact that someone who races in the sportsman ranks full time is a "better" driver. I've got a big issue with that. As long as you can cut a light and run the number, you can beat anyone, whether they run every race on the circuit or just one.

Re: my opinion
 

Great post Evan!

There are lots of sacrifices. Family and loved ones being the biggest. The pressure can be ridiculous when you're in a slump and can't get out of it. And the only way to get out is to keep walking to the plate and keep swinging. But when you hit one out of the park, there's no feeling like it.
Sure, the pro touring racers race a lot and some win a lot-maybe people feel more than their fair share. (wish I was one of them lol). But pro racers lose a lot more than part time racers too! Fletchburger gave me great advice once. He said "if you go to 25 races with 2 cars and win 4 races, you've had a great year. But you've lost 46 times!!!!"

It's not champagne wishes and caviar dreams all the time, that's for sure. But I know I wouldn't trade it for anything. (Today I say that. Tomorrow who knows!)

But come on in, the water's fine! I could use a travel partner sometimes.

Re: my opinion
 

Gee, I wonder what "they" are going to do for "me" to "level the playing field", since I only have a 1500 pickup and an open trailer. It's so unfair! :p

Re: my opinion
 

If a 2 car guy's opponent arrives late to the lanes, he/she doesn't have much choice on when they run either. Then, it's almost impossible to be early for the second class. As long as they allow 2 car contestants, there will always be a few problems getting there quickly. I know-eliminate 2 car racers... Let's not go there for now. I'm sure nhra likes the 2nd entry fee and that they only give us 1.5 spots at best. At some tracks they designate 2 car areas based on space or areas based on size of rig.

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11:34AM 3rd round stock qualifying sat. 2:22PM rain halts racing sat. Dont you normally get 3 hits at e-town points race if youre lucky then 1st round?

Re: my opinion
 

[QUOTE=Mark Faul; As long as they allow 2 car contestants, there will always be a few problems getting there quickly. I know-eliminate 2 car racers... Let's not go there for now. [/QUOTE]

WHY NOT?????? The large rigs are a major problem.