Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

From Jeff Teuton....

"Last I heard 105 was the final number.
__________________
Jeff Teuton 4022 STK "

Can't say for sure how they'll number the 2010's.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

105 2009s or 105 total?

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

2009's

There will be 50-70 2010's from what I understand....

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Nitro, I dont know who it was but its true! LOL

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

The application is back on the Mopar web site!

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NSSRACER, good luck this week at Gainsville.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

I do. :D http://s855.photobucket.com/albums/a...0216112419.flv

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Has Gartlits given up on his DP Challenger? And will Jeggie eventually do the same? Should be interesting to see how many Dragpaks there are at Phoenix and Gainesville....figured there'd be considerably more than 2 show up for Pomona. Hope rewards will start to come soon for the people running these cars that have poured tremendous amounts of effort and cash into building and re-building them. Could someone here state a (fairly close) dollar amount to make one of these 6.1 cars competetively race-ready? (cost of car + cost to make Nat. event race-ready) $75k or maybe WAY more? Do you think Mopar performance is giving Dragpak buyers enough bang for their buck with the initial purchase, or does this "kit" still need more factory refinement before delivery to the racer? Thoughts? WJ

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Some Round Numbers. The Car about $36K, Cage, rear suspension, shocks, cell, rear brakes, rear housing, axles, shaft etc about $12K to $14, Trans Pro Trans w/shifter $6K, Converter $1K, The car comes white clear coat with the front facia (on some ) black, Engine management $2.5K, I think that is $57.5K and you need other stuff-2500 to 5K wheels, tires etc. So $60 Conservative could be 80 with trick paint, ss headers, other stuff. That's my highly speculative guess.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

WJ

I'm guessing, bang for your buck depends on how much you want a factory based low production race car?

The 2010's are advertised at $39, 999.00 U.S. Dollars

Cheers

Peter Ash

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

I doubt if "BIG" ever planned to campaign his DP. I think Mopar wanted some exposure to bring out the new car. Maybe I'll call and see if he wants me to come get it out of his way.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

He seemed pretty excited about the car and racing it when I talked to him last summer at the Mopar Nationals, but maybe he was just tired of signing autographs and found talking about Drag Paks more fun than that.....or at least he thought it would more fun before he talked to me.... I have lots of questions and I am not afraid to ask them.

Regardless he was pretty proud of the dyno Hp and Torque numbers on his engine and we talked a lot about chassis etc., as well as the engine.

Anyway, he is a pretty busy guy, however since it is close, maybe we will see him in Gainesville.

I certainly hope so...

David
________
Handjob Busty

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Although his plans may have changed, I do know that since Indy his car has seen major upgrades and improvments in certain areas, some were shared with me in confidence so I cant say.....

I dont understand why he would do these things if it was just to get Parked.

I also, just quite accidently, saw something I dont think I was supposed to...but it has me wondering, it was his and it was for his DP car.....a very very interesting piece for certain. (It also had his name on it and when I asked , the pretty obvious it was "nervously" confirmed, and my statment was yeah, theyre pretty much like ours, only to be asked........are they like x and y.....my answer was ? I dono, I never had it outta the box.....didnt need to :) And thats the truth, it turns out its different, same manufacturer different spec.

But well see.....

I dont think "Big Daddy" is a guy who buys stuff to throw away money, and I DO know he paid for certain items this go around......why pay if you aint gonna play....at least once more.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Hi Chris will you be coming down to Gainesville to play this weekend?

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Im thinking we may stop down on Friday, and meet some of the CR people in person, I think were just going to take it slow and test slow and very very thorough on Saturday at SGMP.

But Im thinking Friday well haul down to Gainesville and Cert the cage and turn in all our liscence paperwork, and maybe tech through for a Grade point......

But Saturday will be her first full outing.

Then Back for Atlanta after I go home and spend a few days with the munchkins.

I, and the old man are dying to meet some of you guys who have been so supportive and helpful. Were gonna shoot for it....

Itll be the only time anyone gets to see the car "Naked" anyway, its getting wrapped Monday !

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Good! Maybe we all can hit Leonardo's Friday night and have some great pizza and a rap session! See you Friday Chris and Artie! Jim

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Sounds like a plan. I just booked a room for the weekend. The L Q trailer isn't really the hot setup when the temps are freezing

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SAVE your money for a chassis certification ... Stockers do not have to be certified. Save the $150.00 unless you just want to waste money... Irv

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Even for 9.99 and faster ? What you said was what I thought as well, but......

I may have gotten some bad info then. (But Id be suprised from the source, our driver and you know who that is) There must be a confused cold medicine mixup on my part.

Hmmmmmmmm....Ill look into it, Ill take your word as well, since youre running that fast. In a stocker......

What about running at non NHRA sanctioned tracks that do require a valid sanctioning body cert for faster than 9.99 or whatever their break is....? (Like we came across with other cars)

Out of Curiousity do SS cars require cert ?

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Yes.SS cars have to be certified at 9.99 but not stockers at NHRA events.( according to Bruce B ). If you want to run others you may need certification...

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Big's Challenger is getting some updates and he is planning to run it more.
There are several more Challengers that will be running soon.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Chris
The cert requirement is not 9.99 in SS. It is SS/A thru SS/I and GTA thru GTG, stick and auto AND any car running 9.99 or quicker. If you think you may ever want to run SS at an NHRA event where stock is not being contested you will need a chassis cert.
Strange as it sounds, take your car and put the 5.7 in it and enter SS/IA and run the 10.70 index and need a cage but run 9.70 with the 6.1 in A/SA and no cage needed. Your 6.1 in SS/EA has a 10.35 index so running SS should be no problem but you will need a chassis sticker.
Let me know when your back in ATL.

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Thanks.....Thats all Clear as Mud...lol...

Back home in Ohio with a touch of pneumonia.....couple days of nuclear antibiotics I should be alive again.....

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WOW,you are having a tough time getting your new car to the track.Hope you get well soon!

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Eh sometimes its like that, Ive changed about 6 things for a better option, either now or later.....

Tapped a valve yesterday cant get a new one in or other heads I have done till monday. (Im having a Ford Prostock guy do my heads :) Ironic eh....(and NO no cutting to the castings, 0 none....lol) No biggie like a .005 bang, I just dont have an abundance of spares yet. It could be cut straight if it was an intake Id consider it, but not an exhaust. looks like a tight guide and a bit of stem warpage hung it full open and a back smack , piston all good, and just a hair of a bend, we found it while doing a CR check and leakdown test through the tuning process. for a baseline. 3rd check I think

There have been 2 times we "could" have tracked it, but when it does I want no gremilins....none....so either now or later.....

All in all taking a car from bare chassis to finished in 3 months dosent seem too bad.....I dono....never done any other stockers, paint wiring, plumbing, everything just me and the old man...(most of Jan was off because of his and my sons hospital stays) 3 months would be good for a pair of bikes (I always do those in pairs an A and a B bike....usually the B bike ends up faster....go figure) Next time I do a stocker Im going to do it the same was 2 at a time.

Im not discouraged and too stupid to get that way , a little annoyed at myself for getting sick and slowing the pace, but what I have dropped down in the last 5 days or so the old man has taken up and then some, hes a machine......

Car is "offline" monday and early tuesday for its "Wrap anyway" so at least something is getting done.

I may add a second battery as well once I get her back on the scales on Tue, Ive got the weight to spare and I could use the juice for our electronics package.

Well see.....

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

[QUOTE=drooze;170344]Thanks.....Thats all Clear as Mud...lol...

" also, just quite accidently, saw something I dont think I was supposed to...but it has me wondering, it was his and it was for his DP car.....a very very interesting piece for certain. (It also had his name on it and when I asked , the pretty obvious it was "nervously" confirmed, and my statment was yeah, theyre pretty much like ours, only to be asked........are they like x and y.....my answer was ? I dono, I never had it outta the box.....didnt need to And thats the truth, it turns out its different, same manufacturer different"

Help me out here about the "clear as mud" thing. I'm confused.

See you at the races,
Wayne Kerr

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Touche...

But in Stewarts comment, it made sense I just am to sick to process it.

In my comment it was "sortof intentionally" garbled :)



[QUOTE=Wayne Kerr;170356]

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Quote from Mr Drooze....

"Tapped a valve yesterday cant get a new one in or other heads I have done till monday. (Im having a Ford Prostock guy do my heads Ironic eh....(and NO no cutting to the castings, 0 none....lol) No biggie like a .005 bang, I just dont have an abundance of spares yet. It could be cut straight if it was an intake Id consider it, but not an exhaust. looks like a tight guide and a bit of stem warpage hung it full open and a back smack , piston all good, and just a hair of a bend, we found it while doing a CR check and leakdown test through the tuning process. for a baseline. 3rd check I think"


So just let me get this correct......this is your second engine..........It came from a proffessional engine shop or builder and now it has a bent exhaust valve after some test running? You are guessing it came from a tight guide or a valve stem that was warped? The heads are off and your getting it fixed.......

Race engines generally have some type of bronze guides and they rarely seize. Steel or iron guides also work but the clearance needs to right and seals might not be used by some to allow some oil in there. Exhaust need to be looser from the heat........If one valve did it what makes you think it won't happen again on another one.....If a valve seized or started to drag even momentarily it will almost cetainly have some discoloration or metal transfer on the stem........Bottom line is if your valves hit your pistons your going to be hurting another engine.....


As far as Chassis Certs and various rules.....

Stockers don't need some things even bracket cars do going strictly by ET's the car runs. It's a foolish way to write the rules. If you go to your local track just to make some runs during a bracket race...you will need to meet the rules by your ET's for bracket racing.....

So even though your car may run in th 9's and not need a sticker to race in Stock at an NHRA race.

If you do that at your local track you will need to meet all the rules to run in the 9's
Chassis cert. safety gear and a license.....

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

So just let me get this correct......this is your second engine..........It came from a proffessional engine shop or builder and now it has a bent exhaust valve after some test running? You are guessing it came from a tight guide or a valve stem that was warped? The heads are off and your getting it fixed.......

Sort of I see there being 3 possibly 4 distinct possibilities, and I will leave it to the "head guy" to make a call depending on what he sees on dissasembely.

But in general Correct, in these engines according to that SAME builder these valves are prone to warpage, dont forget he didnt spec em Mopar did.

Race engines generally have some type of bronze guides and they rarely seize. Steel or iron guides also work but the clearance needs to right and seals might not be used by some to allow some oil in there. Exhaust need to be looser from the heat........If one valve did it what makes you think it won't happen again on another one.....If a valve seized or started to drag even momentarily it will almost cetainly have some discoloration or metal transfer on the stem........Bottom line is if your valves hit your pistons your going to be hurting another engine

Its a "Possiblity" egt's were good so only an abnormal warpage would have caused it , and hence limited it to 1 valve.

There are 2 other blatant possiblities that could cause only 1 valve to tap (note all our runs were under 6800 at this point so.....) that not it .....

There are very tight clearance issues on the exhaust rockers and the retainers.....its possible there was a momentary "tip up" of a retainer causing a lock condition , the geomoetry on these engines if youre familiar with them would easily cause this hang. We have now a solution to that as well and some cut and scalloped reataniers that drop down another 20 thou, as well as offset locks to move the entire set down, and I can just hit my desired (and Stanton confirmed with MY Valve springs at his facility) a 1.750 installed height, Our springs have a higher rate and pressure than anything else available for this engine, over 460 on the rate... that too was a suprise to him I think, as well as smaller core diamater and Overall diamater which should lend nicley to high rpm stability.

The 3rd possibility is that , and its unlikley that there was a clearance issue, but your right, the bronze alloy thats used would be VERY unlikley to seize.

There is also a possiblity and it was a hair on the tight side .015 total gap on the shim on that rocker, I guess I can open those up to .010 each but....well that seems sloppy to me, then again this engine isnt going to be turning 15k rpm for an hour at a time either like the other engines I usually play with (yeah the bike crap)

The heads are in no way shape or form "race ready" Stanton SPECIFICALLY dosent do any valve or seat work to them, why ? Because everyone wants em their way. The valves look like "Diesel" valve profiles from a WWII generator especially the Intakes.....they are RedLine valves....but well nothing is done to them.

So our head guy reffrered to us by a very knowledgable SS/AH guy who frequests here, well, the guy knows his stuff, I wont second guess his ability. So that leaves a simple solutu

If you think or have any concept that these engines are "ready to race" feel free to call Gary Stanton himself and ask......far from it. That was a problem , communications, we were led to believe that apparently a miscommunication.

Well be good, it takes what it takes....

Do you have ANY other expanation of what could have caused a "FULL OPEN" hang that was non damaging on the valve return and obviously not recurrent ? Only left scuffing a light tip on the valve pocket of the piston , on an engine that never made it over 6800 rpm on these pulls

I see those 3 or 4 options and I subscribe to the Occams Razor principal "If you have two theories that both explain the observed facts, then you should use the simplest until more evidence comes along"

That being said, I am very open to any constructive insight of what could have caused this pnenomema to occur under said conditions.

Cheers

Chris

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

If the rockers hit the retainers and not the valve tips it will usually cause you to drop a valve from the locks coming loose. It generally does not cause a valve to "hang up". The only instance of valves "hanging up" I have ever seen is from guides that were too tight or over heated and lost lubrication.

Stockers often run some very close P-V clearances and it sounds like you need to be checking this. I would assume these engines have roller cams and I have no clue as to what a redline might be for one. 6800 sounds pretty low for most modern Stockers with the parts that are out there today. If it does have hyd. roller lifters I would assume something else is limiting it's rpm capability.

I am not familair with any of these engines or the valvetrain layout.
Warped valve stems is a new term to me....
Of course with the questionable quality of the parts out there today anything is possible I suppose.......

Your valvetrain is your most critical area in most any race engine and that has always been my view......You break something on top and it often leads to catastrophic failure.....

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Stockers often run some very close P-V clearances and it sounds like you need to be checking this.

Already done, lots and lots, clay didnt even touch at over .100 same cam, no advance.

I added a 4 degree advance on this install...so if anything, I would be getting closer on the intake side.

This motor (same setup not same motor) has gone to over 8k without P/V issues..... And this motors deck heights are a hair lower than the last.

I am not familair with any of these engines or the valvetrain layout.

The way the exhaust rocker is, if the clearance (and we Did NOT use stantons keepers as they were heavy for me) but I will, that could have been out issue, on the last motor the valve train was picture perfect albeit saw other failures, we simply replicated it....

BUT on this motor with the Valve job and seat work, well it looks like the valves may have moved up .010 or so, closing up the rocker clerance, because of the odd short throw they could possibly and I say possibly end in a jam up or lockup condition. It would appear.....

Warped valve stems is a new term to me....
Of course with the questionable quality of the parts out there today anything is possible I suppose.......

The valves are made in Argentina....true....nuff said.

Your valvetrain is your most critical area in most any race engine and that has always been my view......You break something on top and it often leads to catastrophic failure.....

Couldnt agree more, well be "ironed" out before were running, and right.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

"Only left scuffing a light tip on the valve pocket of the piston"

Seems to me on more than one occasion guys in tear down have been bounced for piston to valve contact leaving a mark on the piston....... Granted they were flat top or dish pistons but I think a mark on a piston is a mark on a piston. I'd be double checking my double check.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Explain how to me you could get bounced for that ?

That seems like getting boucned because you have scores on your cylinder walls, or signs of predet on your pistons. Or any one of a 1000 other , wear items....

The rules specifically says, "

Piston may not be remachined for special rings, deck
height adjustment, valve relief size, depth, location, or to modify

dome or dish."

A piston tap in NO way shape of form qualifies under that, as well it would actully be ILLEGAL to Correct the damage, in our case Im lucky I dont have to , it is as I said a scuff....

NOW if there were legality issues that caused this I could see that, IE, over lift, or improper deck height.

Our deck heights have been checked by stanton and by us...kosher. Pistons are Kosher, Cam is Kosher....so

Explain to me how they could "bounce you" for a LEGAL setup ?

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

I guess you have yet to be welcomed to a tear down party. It's hard to figure who gained piston to valve clearance on accident from unintended contact, and who gained it by a whack of the hammer on the end of a valve stem with the piston at TDC. Not that anyone would do that......

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

I could see that on all 8

On 1 I couldnt, and there is an appeals process.....Nor could any reasonable tech.

Especially when that 1 isnt even the "highest" of the 8.....

Diamond pistons.....nuff said....

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Hey, I'm on your side, just passing on real information on what has happened in the past. But to address a few of your questions, all your stuff could be "kosher", and still have contact. And I know you know this, but with duration not being speced, that could be the cause of contact, not just lift on a "legal" setup. And as you quoted from the rulebook, it does not say 1 of 8 is ok, or 2 of 8 is ok, its says it can not be modified. It does not say modified on purpose, or modified by accident. If you have two identical engines in tear down and one has "scuffs" on the piston or pistons and one does not, there may be a problem. A piston with a mark in it from contact with the valve is modified. From first hand experience you don't want to have a judgement call made at your expense. Carry on.

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Understood and appreciated....

In our case I know its not the duration or float, the clay test prior showed we were wayyyyy good.

On top of it the prior engine with slightly higher deck measurments was fine at 8k

Thats what leads me to believe something had to "stick" to cause this contact no other reasons exist...the cause of the stick ? But Ill be dammed if Im buying a $1500 set of pistons becuase a scuff on 1 of em..... Ill just richen it up a few passes carbon will hide it :)

The rules says Machined, in terms to the valve pockets, On these pistons the valve pockets correspond to the valve angle so when it hits it hits flat, which in this case was nice because it didnt "ding" the piston, rather left a scuff I could proabably clean off with scotchbrite.....

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

PTV contact? Ask Jason Line about it. He won his very first National event at BIR with his Buick GN. Upon tear down, it was noticed that there was PTV contact and his win was taken away.

Wasn't your new cam ground with a 4* advance already?

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

Nope I had it ground straight 0

Re: Challenger Drag Pak Owners
 

A note confirmed by Bruce B.

PTV Contact is NOT a DQ, it USED to be , it is NO LONGER. That when DURATION was in the mix.

#24 Is BACK Together and Ready for Testing.

Valve issue, combination of issues either my fault, clearances on Rocker setup and retainer choice, valve job was more aggresive and cutting of valves on this head setup, clearance I didnt like, looks like I had reason not to caused Lock condition on exhaust rocker. Confirmed by Pro Stock head guy that did our heads (independently), solved, reassembled.

See some track Saturday......

Adding second fuel filter and different alternator pulley

Zip Zap relax..........

:eek: