CLASS RACER FORUM - 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

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- - 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=29306)

Chad Rhodes

11-05-2010 09:54 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 220198)

This is NOT "rocket science." After all these hypothetical scenarios, and the conclusions that support the FACT that the present situation is NOT fair, never has been, and has sent many a car to the trailer when he should have won the round, it's abundantly clear that some people will argue with a gatepost, even when they can't supply ANY legitimate reasons for their position. They just want to argue.

Some say "Life is not fair."

Of course it's not... and racing is not fair, but it needs to be as fair as we can make it.
Why do you think NHRA Tech tosses cars out for valves that are a few THOUSANDTHS of an inch to big.... ot too small? Keeps voluminous technical records on carburetor part numbers, venturi size specs, and throttle bore sizes? Camshaft lift information???

So it will be a fair race... or, as fair as they can make it.

But, I'm just a "whiner" because I want to change a rule that screws, or has the potential to screw virtually half the cars running. Any race that's not "heads-up" is a candidate for this unforunate event.

So, if you think that you're a "good guy" for not complaining when a car that leaves after you, has a red light infraction that is worse than yours, I have news... you might not mind losing like that, but keeping quiet about it is just one way of telling NHRA that the first red light system is okay, and that's all they need to leave it alone. The others (and, their numbers are growing,) who can see the built-in inequities that are part and parcel of the first red light system, and want it changed, now have a steeper uphill battle to get a worse redlight system in place.

To use a very tired adage, you're either part of the solution, or you're part of the problem.

But, the biggest problem is NHRA's inertia with stuff like this. It won't make them any money, so they have no initiative to fix it... so, in all likelihood, they won't.

We're lucky that this bunch of Druids wasn't running NHRA back in the sixties, or we'd probably still have the "first breakout loses" rule...

Would you guys like that???

if the first breakout lost now, i bet you'd have alot less people holding three tenths. seems to me you'd have to dial VERY hard and run them out the back door. Not that i would want to see that come back. If you are so dissatisfied with the current system why don't you find a track or a drag racing series where they have adopted your "fair" method of doing things, and race there???? OH wait, there isn't one.

Jack McCarthy

11-05-2010 01:41 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

all you whiners never noticed bill grubbs has the answer to the riddle !

captain jack

and i agree dont change any more rules, just stop putting RT's & incrementals on the slip...let go back to time / mph ... win - lose - time trials... all the info we need :)

John Kelley

11-05-2010 02:51 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Rhodes (Post 218723)

The slower car has the advantage of the clean tree,

And the fast car has the advantage of BLINDERS and being better able to judge the other car.
Take way the blinders.......and the worst breakout losing !! :-)

Ed Wright

11-05-2010 03:30 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

All this B.S. about something that ain't gonna happen.

bill dedman

11-05-2010 07:04 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Chad wrote:

"If you are so dissatisfied with the current system why don't you find a track or a drag racing series where they have adopted your "fair" method of doing things, and race there???? OH wait, there isn't one."

Why not just change the current system to a worse redlight system, so it will be a level playing field and give everyone a chance to redlight, every time?

If there's something unfair about that, please tell me what it is. If you can tell me what's unfair about that, I will send you a shiny, new, ten-dollar bill. So far, no one's been able to tell me that.

That should tell you something about this situation.

Of course, if you run a AA/S car, this new system won't be of benefit to you, but you'd have the satisfaction of knowing that you weren't be going to collect wins that were predicated on a skewed system... That is, you would if you valued sportsmanship to the extent that you desired wins that you EARNED, and not had handed to you by a flawed system that can victimize the first car to leave. I'm sure you are that kind of sportsman....

John Kelley

11-05-2010 07:24 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad Rhodes (Post 219454)

Problem is that a lot of fast cars, when giving a big enough spot will just leave when they see their opponents red light, that would skew the numbers.

WHOA.......if that made it right NOBODY would see any redlight until BOTH cars had left the starting line !!!

bill dedman

11-05-2010 10:15 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Yet another post from someone who would ridicule the new rule proposal, but with NO logical reason not to change to it. Just more verbiage, changing the subject and offering distraction.

Take two asprin and call me in the morning, Ed... :)

Jeff Lee

11-05-2010 10:38 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Ed has one of the slowest cars out there and I'm sure it's a rare treat when he gets to leave last. He races the snout out of his slow car and as you know made it to the finals here recently. So one would think he would be all for this proposal. But you would be wrong...

bill dedman

11-06-2010 08:06 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

You're right, Jeff; "There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE," my mom used to tell me when I was a kid...

Now, I know what she meant.

John Lang

11-06-2010 10:15 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Mr Dedman....You have been beating this First Red thing for a long ,long time ! Give it a rest ! Most racers, including myself think that the way it is now is just fine ! I've been doing this silly hobby (that I still love) since 1956, and it's still the closest thing to SEX you can get with your clothes on ! Yes at my age ! Go out and race and have a good time !........John

John Kelley

11-06-2010 12:36 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Lang (Post 220391)

I'll side with Dedman !! .....even tho' he hates me..........
You have NO logical reason NOT to change it, NONE !!

Alan Roehrich

11-06-2010 12:47 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 220376)

"There are none so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE,"

Like the guy who races nothing but brackets constantly telling the people racing class they should change their rules because he feels they're not fair? :rolleyes:

Chad Rhodes

11-06-2010 01:27 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 220415)

Like the guy who races nothing but brackets constantly telling the people racing class they should change their rules because he feels they're not fair? :rolleyes:

define IRONY, lol

bill dedman

11-06-2010 01:37 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 220415)

Like the guy who races nothing but brackets constantly telling the people racing class they should change their rules because he feels they're not fair? :rolleyes:

"Rules"??? The only rule I have EVER addressed on this forum is this one... because I don't see any problem with the rest of them, except for the pathetic AHFS, and that's going to take a LOT of re-do before it's workable. This redlight business is an easy fix.

Tell me this, Alan: What are the differences in Stock Eliminator starting line procedures and Bracket racing starting line procedures relative to red lights. Particularly, the ones that are relative to this discussion... you know, the ones that would disqualify my opinon about this subject. Tell me... please.

You do realize, don't you, that Ken set this particular board up for people like me, who may not currently have a Class car, but still have an interest in how things are done, and want to contribute to the discussion.

John Lang said it best: Let's just have fun! But, I can have a lot more fun if the rules are fair... and, they're not for the first car to leave, if he redlights.

No free rides!

Ed Fernandez

11-06-2010 02:09 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 220423)

"Rules"??? The only rule I have EVER addressed on this forum is this one... because I don't see any problem with the rest of them, except for the pathetic AHFS, and that's going to take a LOT of re-do before it's workable. This redlight business is an easy fix.

Tell me this, Alan: What are the differences in Stock Eliminator starting line procedures and Bracket racing starting line procedures relative to red lights? Particularly, the ones that are relative to this discussion... you know, the ones that would disqualify my opinon about this subject. Tell me... please.

You do realize, don't you, that Ken set this particular board up for people like me, who may not currently have a Class car, but still have an interest in how things are done, and want to contribute to the discussion.

John Lang said it best: Let's just have fun! But, I can have a lot more fun if the rules are fair... and, they're not fair for the first car to leave, if he redlights.

No free rides!

What makes you think that you have to be the conscience for a race series you aren't even a participant in?If you want a worse red light rule spend the energy you are wasting here on an email avalanche to NHRA in Cal. to change the rule in BRACKET RACING which you say you are active in.BTW just how many races do you do in a season?
And the other interloper agreeing with you (Mr Tightwad) isn't an active S/SS racer either.
Does he even race/attend any races?
Non participants aren't needed to shape the rules that WE race under.I couldn't put it any simpler.

Ed Wright

11-06-2010 02:13 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Bill, do you really think all this carrying on is going to change anything? Really? Do you just like to argue? I only have a low ten second car, so most always leave first. I'm fine like it is. I don't remember loosing a race that way anyway. If I do, I should have not gone red. I'm not going to blame somebody else.

ken robinson

11-06-2010 06:30 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Any word on after market small bore bigblock chevy yet . Would it be a good idea to start a list of people who would like to purchase them so they can get casted and sold (50 vs 100 blocks etc ) to make it a good deal for the casting company as well as the racer ???? Ken R

bill dedman

11-06-2010 06:36 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Ed, if you think this rule as is stands, is fair, why don't you tell me why?

Don't you think that with all the time and money spent on this activity, it would be nice to have a level playing field?

You don't, you know.

Anything else is not fair.

This bulletin board exists for people like me, to post their opinions, and that is what I have done This is just my opinion. If you disgree, you could at least tell me what is wrong with mine. You'd rather tell me what you think is wrong with ME... which is not the subject at all.

When something is so blatantly unfair a first redlight rule, it's really hard to justify keeping it. Reasons to do so are few and far between. In fact, with all the notes you have sent me on this subject, I have never read a good reason to keep such an unfair rule.

Now's your chance: What are your reasons (or, reason) to keep a rule that screws virtually half the peope who race under it?

Tell me.... please, why you think everyone should not have the same chance to redlight in EVERY race.

Since I don't race a class-legal car, you seem to think I should have NO OPINION on it, but as NHRA goes, so goes the rest of the race tracks, procedurally. That means while you're getting screwed with your class car, I'm ALSO getting screwed by this rule in my Bracket car. I want it changed because there's just no reason NOT to.

BTW, both of my race cars are "new" and are in the shakedown phase; one is suprcharged V8, and one is an inline six with a turbo. LOTS of "shakedown."

Alan Roehrich

11-06-2010 06:37 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken robinson (Post 220469)

The list is here, on page 89.

http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/N...roducts-13.pdf

And Dart, the accepted manufacturer, rarely, if ever, offers deals.

bill dedman

11-06-2010 06:43 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 220430)

Ed. you have your opinion; I have mine. No, I don't think this will ever change, partly because of people like you, who are satisfied with the lopsided nature of this situation.

I'd like the guy in the other lane to have the same opportunity to redlight that I did. If I redlight first, he has no such opportunity. This gives him a free ride to the next round.
If you're the first car to leave, you'll face this jeopardy and fall victim to it more often than your quicker opponent.

What's fair about that?

Tell me...

I'll bet you can't.... because it's NOT fair. Nor is it necessary, in 2010. The couldn't fix it in 1963 when they fixed the first to breakout rule, but they can, now.

Why not do it???

ken robinson

11-06-2010 07:11 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Thanks Alan for the link . And you are dead on about Dart . Its to bad there block is only for the 427 and 454 racers and the 396 and 402 guys are still left out . Ken R ...

Ed Fernandez

11-06-2010 07:47 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Last try.YOU are a bracket racer.We race S/SS.We live by these rules.If you don't like it
tough *****.YOU are a bracket racer.Go break the track owners ball$ where you race about changing it.We don't go on the bracket racing section and instigate what goes on in bracket racing.
Your head must be made out of concrete.You just don't get it.
And no,I won't answer any of your questions.For you it's a moot subject.Get and race a class car and maybe more people on here will be more responsive to your red light rage.

Ed Wright

11-06-2010 08:56 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Bill, I feel like the 1st red light rule balances out the distraction of the slower car leaving. Whoever posted about the faster car being able to cure that with a "BLINDER" either does not actually race or has not actually used a blinder. You could not (nor would not want to) use a blinder large enough to completely block out the other lane & car. Tech guys would never let it by even if anybody was stupid enough to try one. Hopefully that was meant as a joke. I leave last some of the time, I don't prefer it. I'm cool like it is. If you loose a lot of bracket races due to 1st red lights you might want to work on your driving.

bill dedman

11-06-2010 09:29 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Ed (F.), of course you don't want to answer "any more questions" because you can't.

You never did answer what is fair about a rule that can remove the red light jeopardy from the second car to leave (IF the first car redlights), and why such a lopsided rule should stay, since it's so easy to fix..... and if you can't answer that, then you have no argument.

Do you think that because you run a class car and I run a bracket car, your opinion is any more valid than mine? It's not. The reason it's not is that the procedures involved in staging, and starting a Stock and/or Bracket race, and the resultant red light system vagaries are IDENTICAL.

So, now, tell me how my opinion should carry any less weight than yours?

At least, Ed Wright pointed out a reason for this lopsided situation; he thinks it offsets the "clean tree" that sometimes, the slower car gets. How about when two cars race, and the difference in their dial-ins is just a few hundredths of a second? Where's the "clean tree", then?

It doesn't exist, in that case, but the first redlight rule stays....

Try again, Mr. Wright... that one only works part of the time.

art leong

11-06-2010 09:54 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Is this the "kinder gentler" Ed?
I always leave first, And it would be a benefit for me for them to put in a worst redlight rule. BUT.
I have under $20,000 in my whole race operation. Not counting my towing stuff.
I race against cars that have more than that in their motors alone.
If I race a slow superstocker I'm probably in the line of sight with their tree.
If I'm racing a fast superstocker they have to wait about 4 full seconds.
Then come at me on the other end 50 mph faster than me.
It's not a perfect world. But the rule was that way before I built the car,
So as far as I'm concerned leave it alone.

hemidup

11-06-2010 10:40 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

With all this "red light" racing BS, whatever happened to "green light' racing? lol

Ed Wright

11-06-2010 10:57 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Doesn't matter what you think anyway Bill, it's not going to change. I think you just like to argue and have the attention.

Adger Smith

11-06-2010 11:43 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

I just don't see what the big deal is about the red light. We have raced with it the way it is for about 4 decades. What? We aren't accustomed to it? We don't know what the rule is? OH! we want to change something to confuse the few fans we have left in the stands.
I think I've heard more fast guys say "I just couldn't wait" than the slow guy say they couldn't wait on the tree. So who really has the advantage on the tree? Fast or slow it's usually not the guy with his head in his A**... that has the advantage. Isn't it usually your own fault for a redlite? Now we are putting blame on the system. Let's move on to something constructive, like track conditions and run order.

bill dedman

11-07-2010 12:48 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adger Smith (Post 220513)

Yes, Adger, it's been screwing the first driver to leave for 40 years. Don't you think that's long enough? I do... and yes, we're so accustomed to it that it seems "right." Until you really think about it. Took me a long time to realize just how unnecesarily wrong it was/is.

"Isn't it usually your own fault for a redlite?" Absolutely, but is that any reason to deprive the guy in the other lane of his chance to do it even worse? I can't see why everyone shouldn't have the same chance to redlite. Do you? As it is, they don't.

If I am the first to leave, and I redlight, it is the fault of tthe CURRENT system that the second driver will never have his chance to redlight. Been that way for nearly 40 years, BECAUSE they didn't know how to fix it, for a long time.

That's no longer a valid excuse. Now, they know how.

Fixing this would be VERY constructive, and the fans in the stands would have no reason to be confused; only one redlight will show... the worse one, while the win light shows in the other lane. What's confusing about that?

Nothing.

hemidup

11-07-2010 12:59 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adger Smith (Post 220513)

Well said Adger.

Let me think back to one of my last races....5 day's of no pay, 4 night's at $105 per night at the local motel, 1200 miles worth of diesel @ 10 mpg and at $3.44 a gallon, plus wear and tear. That was a whole lot of money spent for a -.002 red weekend of fun. But still, I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

Adger Smith

11-07-2010 02:18 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Hey Bill I'm a slow Super Stock car and it dosn't bother me. I've had the second guy redlite more than I have. What's the matter? Slow car drivers can't take advantage of the clean tree? Yes, it is an advantage to me to leave first. I've raced almost every way. Slow Stocker to A/ED. I can read the tree better and tell what kind of light I get without any distraction. That allows me to run the finish line the best way, the way I want to do it. Sit in an A/ED and watch some slower car move out on you and then you try to blow off the line with a 1 second sixty foot. I totally disagree with all your issues with the current system. I just think it is the mental thing that resides on a persons shoulders. With the issues you have with being the slow car you are probably beating yourself more than the other guy. Come on give it up. It is what it is, Has been and no one in NHRA is interested in changing it. It's not worth an more lip service. I've said my piece and I'll continue to race my way and with in the system we have, whether I leave first or last. I'm out of here!

Ed Carpenter

11-07-2010 04:48 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 220519)

Cut a good light in your lane and nothing else matters.

Jason

11-07-2010 10:31 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 220519)

Give it up Bill. It ain't gonna happen. Why? Because the guy who tried to get mufflers on Stock and SS would have been your only hope and he is long gone. Most will admit he was the best at getting unwanted changes accepted in the rulebook. Too bad for you and your idea...great for the rest of us.

Ed Wright

11-07-2010 11:09 AM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Adger is my hero.
Btw, isn't there also a bracket racing section here for those guys? :-)

bill dedman

11-07-2010 12:34 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by deuces wild (Post 220539)

Cut a good light in your lane and nothing else matters.

I assume you always do that, Mr. Carpenter?

What's your secret???

bill dedman

11-07-2010 12:41 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 220557)

Adger is my hero.
Btw, isn't there also a bracket racing section here for those guys? :-)

Yes, there's a Bracket racing section, but I would imagine you realize that NHRA is the leader in race procedure implementation technology, and is the venue where racing procedures that affect ALL racing are the most visible. What that means is, until this change gets implemented by NHRA, it's not very likely to happen anywhere else.

That's why I am attempting to get awareness of this situation on this board, instead of a Bracket board.

It's nothing personal.... :)

bill dedman

11-07-2010 12:44 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason (Post 220550)

Too bad for you and your idea...great for the rest of us.

"great for the rest of us"????

I hope you remember writing this the next time you're eliminated by the guy in the next lane who had a worse red light than you...

That makes no sense at all.

Chad Rhodes

11-07-2010 12:46 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 220571)

"great for the rest of us"????

I hope you remember writing this the next time you're eliminated by the guy in the next lane who had a worse red light than you...

That makes no sense at all.

I will, and I stand by my original statement, if I go red, then I choked and don't deserve to win.

bill dedman

11-07-2010 12:56 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

"if I go red, then I choked and don't deserve to win."

What about the guy in the other lane?

He never had a chance to "choke"

What is fair about you having that opportunty, and the other guy never having to face it?

One set of rules for you, and another for him???

That is basically unfair, it seems to me.

If you can explain what is fair about that, please tell me. It is NOT a "level playing field."

It only works for an AA/S car; how many of them are there out there? They NEVER leave first...

west coast

11-07-2010 01:13 PM

Re: 2011 Stock/Super Stock Rule Changes

This thread was about the 2011 rule changes start your own thread on red lighting the worst so we all dont have look at it.

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