Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You guys who want to change this rule are nothing but mamby pambies that are trying to find another crutch to try and win a race in spite of your lack of talent.What next?I heard a few guys saying that when Dave Thomas painted his Corvette flat black that it was because the slower guys couldn't see him coming up on them at night.So now let's see,nobody can paint their car that way,it's an unfair advantage.It's all bull$hit.If you don't think you're competitive under the present rulles structure go and beat up on the kiddies at a go-kart track.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

But did the other car have a chance to lose via a red light, too?

If not, they got screwed, whether they know it or not. EVERYBODY needs a chance to red light... everybody. If not, it's a stacked deck.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Have I EVER said that posting about this subject on Class Racer, would result in this rule being changed?

No.

And, I don't believe it will, but it WILL put the idea of how unfair this first red light rule is, out for perusal (look it up, Ed) so that those who think about it can make an informed decision. That is the value of this message board.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Thank you, Bobby. I think that anyone who really thinks the two protocols through could not help but agree that this unfair situation under which we race, could be improved upon. Getting them (NHRA) to make the software change will be the hard part.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed wrote: "What annoys me the most is that if the rule is changed in S/SS racing it doesn't affect you at all."

It affects me in exactly the same way it affects you.
IT AFFECTS ME IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY IT AFFECTS YOU!!!

When I am the first to leave at ANY Bracket race I attend with either car I take to the strip, wheen I am the first to leave, if I red light, the car in the other lane NEVER has his chance to red light.

Read that again.

That is 100-percent correct,

Now, tell me how the firat red light rule under which YOU race, doesn't afftect me, in exactly the same way.

PLEASE, tell me.

When you write things like that, it's obvious to me that you have, in spite of ALL THIS VERBIAGE, ~NO~ conception of how this works.

One more time; tell me how I don't get screwed the very same way that YOU do, when you're the first to leave, and you red light, handing the win to the other car, with him never getting HIS chance to red light..

Unequal treatment for the two cars.... and it's universal in handicap racing, NHRA Stock, Super Stock, Comp and generic Bracket racing, and it's the same for everybody.

So, you could imagine my befuddlement, when you wrote, "What annoys me the most is that if the rule is changed in S/SS racing it doesn't affect you at all." Oh yes, Ed, it affects me in PRECICELY the same way it affects you (and everybody else who is handicap racing.) If it didn't, I surely wouldn't be on this BB writing all these impaassioned pleas for something that wouldn't affect ME.
Believe it...

Still shaking my head....

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Thanks, Gary! Someting for a doddering old fool to amuse himelf with, in his dotage.... :)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

How in equal treatment under the rules, a "crutch"??? We don't have it, with a first red light rule.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Where are a few “rogue” track operators that will change their starting system to a worst foul system?

If you’re out there, just do it: Don’t tell anyone what you did, just do it. Be different. Be a trend setter. Be a leader.

Then, let’s listen to the bizarre excuse when someone whines because they fouled worse than their opponent and lost: “I know my red light was worse, but HE did it first!”

That will be right up there on the silly meter with “I know I broke out worse, but HE did it first!”

Who’s going to quit handicap racing when everyone has an equal chance to foul start?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

WRONG. And it is YOU that does not get it. YOU do not RACE in Stock Eliminator, nor in Super Stock. YOU do not drive a car, YOU do not own a car, YOU do not crew a car, you do not build or work on cars, in either class. Therefore, and to wit, rules in Stock Eliminator and Super Stock DO NOT EFFECT YOU.

Yes Bill, it really is THAT SIMPLE. And yet, you insist on trying to ram a rule change down the throats of racers you do not race with.

Ever wonder why you annoy others so much? You have your nose in their business, trying to make changes that DO NOT EFFECT YOU, to classes they race in and you do not.

It has been suggested to you dozens, maybe hundreds of times, that you propose your rule change as a racer, in your classes, at your track. But you steadfastly refuse to do so, you insist on constantly demanding that racers in other classes embrace your desire for a rule change in classes you have no actual vested interest in. You admit you're not going to race in Stock Eliminator or Super Stock, and yet you demand and insist that the rule be changed to suit you.

I may bracket race some, as a diversion, as part of a test and tune session, or something of that nature. But the one thing I will refuse to do is to demand that bracket racers change a rule to suit me. I won't even go on their section of the boards and talk about their rules, as their rules are no business of mine. And even if I do choose to bracket race at times, I do so under their rules, with the understanding that it is their world, and I'm just visiting.

No, Bill, Ed gets it, you do not. Ed is not demanding a rule change at all, never mind demanding a rule change in a class he has zero intentions of racing in. Think about it. Spend as much time and effort obsessing over that concept as you do the red light rule. One day, even you might get it, you might grasp the concept. I won't hold my breath waiting.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Amen..........

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Double Amen. Well stated Alan.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Alan, if we ever meet, you have a case of beer (or beverage of your choice) on me.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Glad I brought that up!
Now we all know, your wallet, your head nor your heart has any involvement in Class Racing. Didn't your parents ever tell you "butt out, stay out of other peoples business!" I can't imagine being one of your neighbors, do you work at changing the way they run their families also?
Just like Allen stated, go to the appropriate message board and plead your case there.
I haven't counted (because I do have better things to do) but I'd say after all this you have what, 6 people on board with your plan? I have to think you should have one nasty headache after beating your head against the wall so long.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Alan (AA/SA),

Bill has told us many times , he's a former Stock racer, tech guy, and long time fan of S/SS racing.

As you know, Alan (AA/SA) , this is the section of this forum where the fans get to post their opinions. I'm sure you knew that.

Also, Alan (AA/SA) , you know that changes such as this proposal, start out at the NHRA Nat'l event tracks, then filter down to the Divs. and Open facilities, not the other way around.

Alan (AA/SA) , I always look forward to your insightful posts, and I appreciate the help you've given me over the years ....... But take this from a guy who doesn't really care whether they change this or not, your last post on this topic sounded like >>>"KILL THE MESSENGER" to me.....But you knew that too, didn't you, Alan..........(AA/SA)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff ,I think there's a lot more than six, including a few Top Ten racers

Oh, and it's A-L-A-N (AA/SA)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mark, we also run A/SA, SS/EA, and I may drive in B/SA or C/SA some this year.

Yes, I did campaign for AA/SA. And we do run the class.

I also drove in G/S. And I did redlight first, more than once. It was MY redlight, I did it, and I lost. The system didn't rip me off, the rules didn't beat me, I let the clutch fly early. Entirely MY FAULT.

It's a rule that has been the way it is for decades, it hasn't hindered the growth of the sport. It's a minor annoyance, at the most. Worrying about that rule is about the same as putting a band aid on a cut on the finger of a patient while he dies of an untreated sucking chest wound.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

As a person that has lost many many times being chased and chasing, I can tell you that this topic does not keep me up at night.

I would suggest that if there are a few on here that really want to try it out, try sponsoring a combo race with the propsed rule change in effect! Maybe kick in 500 or a thou to help prime the pump.

Advertise the rules up front. Then you might find out how it "rolls".

When I first started announcing, the girls in the tower and the announcer had to do quick math to figure the winner. It could be done.

Of course, it is a lot harder to actually get off your arse and do something compared to posting an idea and hoping it goes viral.

Put your time and money where your mouth is.

I mean, I would be racing pro stock now if it wasn't for the whole time and money thing........:)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Alan is right, and thats the end this foolishness ! I'm right too like Alan and the rest that agree with Alan !.....John

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

So, what's the criteria to be able to post on this issue? Looks to me like a lot of people posting on this haven't even raced S/SS in the last two plus years. If you crew on a S/SS car is that good enough? What if somebody knows someone who crews on a S/SS car is that good enough? What if somebody painted a S/SS car is that good enough?

If Bill has raced in S/SS before then I think he has just as much right to post on this issue as a lot of you do.


-Toby

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

That's right, Toby, the car I was racing was sold in early 2009. So I didn't race in 2009 or 2010, and haven't driven yet, this year. I am however a current participant on a couple of levels, I'm not whining about how I can't race, and I'm working on getting back in.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

If they're not, then they should be...WOW , X2!!!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Not me...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

x2

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Thank you Alan for explaining this so even a caveman can understand it.I think that all points racers in S/SS should have to forfeit 10 points per race because they are so much better than the rest of us and our self esteem is being damaged.Why shouldn't we be able to win races and make more money just because we aren't good enough to do it on our own talent.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++


You lost BECAUSE you had a chance to red light, and you did,

When did your opponent have HIS chance to red light??? Oh... he didn't.

Answer the question and you'll have the answer to what is unfair about this system.

The second car has the advantage of NO REDLIGHT JEOPARDY if the first car bulbs. Nobody can deny that, and as small an advantage as you seem to think it is, in the final analysis, it IS an advantage. Pretty much everyone seems to agree on that.

(It could easily happen in the final round for the Eliminator money, at Indy.)


Now, tell me the justification for that advantage. What is it about that unfair rule that appeals to you. I won't even suggest that it's because, as the sometimes pilot of a AA/SA car, it would benefit you a great majority of the time....

When the Christmas tree was in its infancy (1963-'64), there was no software to deal with a worse red light program, but thanks to progress in things digital, that is no longer true. It's fixable, now....

I'm sure that paying for the software to implement the change, wouldn't put much of a dent in NHRA's annual budget, which includes about a million dollars in salary for the top two honchos, but they'd probably choke on it, anway.

And, for that reason, alone, it will probably never happen.

On a couple of issues you raised, yes, I ran a class-legal Stocker, a 220 hp 283 Chevy 1957 sedan delivery for about 5 years (1966-1971), part of the time, with a partner (Div. V racer, Harry Sparks.) Harry still races in Stock Eliminator.

Here's a picture of the car in question. (see below.)

You seem upset that I don't CURRENTLY run a Stock-Super/Stock car.

In my defense, I would say this: This rule (the first red light rule) is universally enforced in both Class racing and in Bracket racing. My Bracket cars are subject to its B.S., just as if I were running Class-legal racing with them.

Ed doesn't seem to get that.

Does that give me the right to post on here (Class Racer) about my opinions regarding this antiquated anomaly????

The Moderator, Ken Miele, has created this BB for people who don't currently race. He has NEVER said, "Well, if you're not currently running a Class-Legal car, then your subject matter is limited to subjects that don't apply to those cars." For current racers, with a Permanent number, there's a separate BB.

So, there's only THIS to consider: The ethics of posting subject matter that is pertinent to what you DON'T race, and the ethics of doing so, as regards how it may have "unintended consequences."

This red light business is a fairness issue (obviously) and what is fair in Brackets as far as starting line protocol/rules is concerned, is fair for both Brackets and Class racing.

If you don't see it as an "ethics" issue, then you have no concept of fairness in racing, and it's not surprising that you are not disturbed by the lack of a level playing field that the "First red light" rule brings to the starting line.

IF it can be made more fair, with a reasonable amount of effort, I think there's no reason not to do it.

Who will be harmed by this change.? I can't think of a soul, except maybe the very top class car that will never leave first. Can you? Oh... I forgot; you're a sometimes AA/SA racer... :)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

</sarcasm on>
It's so unfair it's killed drag racing, and people have been quitting over that one rule for decades. It's so important that the very life of drag racing depends on that, and that alone.
</sarcasm off>


It wouldn't make a difference to me, no matter what I drive, although I do have some things in the works for an A/SA car.

I've raced under the same rules for about 3 decades, give or take, and it seems like a reasonable balance to me, even when I go red first, but the other guy is more red than I am.

If I go red, I go red, if I do it first, shame on me, even if the other guy was worse. I don't care, I blame every loss on the guy I look at in the mirror when I brush my teeth. If I lost, I didn't do everything better than the guy in the other lane, or at least I didn't do enough things better than he did.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Your wasting your time Alan. This gets him attention he would not get otherwise.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

"If I go red, I go red, if I do it first, shame on me, even if the other guy was worse."

If you were in a car with a slower handicap(dial-in), what choice did you have????

YOU HAD NO CHOICE. If you redlight, it will ALWAYS be "first" if you are racing a quicker-handicapped car.

JEASUS...

Talk about circular logic...

Do you feel the same way about breakouts? I kind doubt it. Same deal... different rule.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Why would you suggesst something that would give some drivers an advantage/\???

What I am sugessting, not only doesn't give ANYONE an advantage, it TAKES AWAY an unfair advantge that exists under the present setup.

How can you think that that is a bad thing?

Tell me; what's the downside to that change?

Go ahead, ED.... tell me who would be damaged with a red light rule wherein EVERYBODY gets the same chance to red light....

I'm waiting... Ed...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

In regards to your contention, "it seems like a reasonable balance to me," ....

No, Alan, a "reasonable balance" would be if both cars were treated equally by the rules. They's not.

Also, you failed to answer the burning question in my last query, in reference to your comment about having lost to a "first red light situation."

I asked,"When did your opponent have HIS chance to red light???"

Why didn't you comment on that one-sided situation???

I think I know...
I think we BOTH know...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Your definition of a reasonable balance is not necessarily the same as mine. You look at ONE facet of the situation, I look at more than one, I look at the entire situation.

He didn't get a chance to red light, I screwed up, let the clutch fly too soon, and beat him to the red light. My mistake. I commented on the situation all I needed to. I screwed up first, I lost. Brutally honest, brutally simple.

That's right Bill you "think" you know. But you do not. Next time, don't try to be so condescending, and assume you know what I'm thinking, because I don't think you're quite capable of knowing what I'm thinking. You're quite capable of ASSUMING. And you AMUSE me. Good luck with that, see how far it takes you.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

This may be a public forum but I don't see that allows people to make policy changes for something they are not even a member of.
Besides not even requiring an NHRA or IHRA membership on this board, a real name is not required. Neither is there an age requirement.
So conceivably, a 5 year old could get on here and start ranting about change that would suit him or her at the races.
Come to think of it, that may be happening on some of these posts...:rolleyes:

Bill,
You never did come back with my comment on the "why" we have this red light rule. You only commented that "it couldn't be". I provided a perfectly good, rational argument of the "why" yet you seem to have buried it and can not or will not acknowledge there is some merit to it. This seems to suggest you are no more open to reasoning than you suggest I and others are. Therefore, it would seem an impasse as neither side is listening. "It's not fair" is not good enough. Life is not fair.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff,
We both are on this board and have our own reasons for being here. I don't know why you would bring up "no name" posters, as neither you, nor I, use that M.O. as a part of our online presence, nor do we feel a need to. In that vein, I'm not sure why you brought it up, as it's not a factor, here. I'm in the Conway phone book, is you need to verify my existence.

Insofar as " "It's not fair" is not good enough. Life is not fair.", no, life is not fair, but this situation is not "life." It's just some rules that exist at the pleasure of a gouup of guys who clearly haven't had the time, or inclination to examine the content and consequences of the rule, as it was originally conceived when this fledgling handicap system was put into play 47 years ago, when there WAS NO ALTERNATIVE. The necessary software didn't exist.... yet.

In the ensuing years, everyone, myself included, got so used to it that it becaame a part of the "landscape" and just blended into the scenery, as a non-entity.

As I have said, it took ME several weeks before I could fully comprehend the difference in the two systems... guess I'm a slow learner.

But, when the facts finally hit home regarding the different way that system treats the red light infraction, I was moved to try to rectify it.

Life is not fair, for sure, but when it comes to rules, and racing, it needs to be as fair as it CAN be, and this is something I feel needs to be changed in the interest of creating a more level playing field for everyone.

Can you tell me who would be "damaged" by a worse red light rule? Aside from an AA/S car, I can't think of anyone...

I am "changing" nothing; I am ~suggesting~ this change in the interest of trying to righting a wrong that I feel, has been with us for way too long.

Just my 2-cents (and, probably overpriced, at that...)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

In the Pros it is WORST red light looses correct?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Alan ,

Let's try to keep the personal nuances ("condescending") out of this and concentrate on the issue of the two red light rule protocal, shall we?

If I seemed "condescending" I apologize. My insulting people would serve no positive purpose, here; It's hard enough to get reasonable people to discuss this issue with me, without making them angry. If I did that, it was unintentional, and I'm sorry.

Aside from that, your contention, " He didn't get a chance to red light, I screwed up, let the clutch fly too soon, and beat him to the red light. My mistake. I commented on the situation all I needed to. I screwed up first, I lost. Brutally honest, brutally simple."
deftly side-steps the issue of, "Where was HIS chance to screw up and red light, maybe worse that YOU???"

That is part and parcel of the rationale that "You screwed up" and by doing so, removed that part of what I think, should be commensurate with HIS responsibility, to be fair to you. With the current setup, he escapes the kind of red light jeopardy that you were under, and there's no legitimate reason why he should enjoy that advantage,

That is, if you want a set of rules that treats everyone the same...

And, why would you not want that?

No, I DON'T know what you're thinking if you wouldn't want everyone to face the same red light jeopardy. Right now, they don't.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bill Dedman, I agree with you on this issue. However, beating it to death on this board will get us nowhere. I'd rather spend my time working on my car. I feel that would be more productive to me.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bobby D.
In the Pros its the FIRST red light looses. Tastes great, less filling, tastes great....
yea, I know.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Which is always the WORST redlight right?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Duplicate post...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bobby, I agree with you. I'm done here; go work on your car... that's what I'm gonna do! :)

Have a great week!