Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

This would make sense. Now what defines the FX designation? How about anything that has a production run of less than 500 per year, and/or no VIN. That way you leave the door open for a new real production car with a fairly realistic set of stock production car specs being able to compete. (unless NHRA screws with the HP)

Tracy

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

How about all cars, new old or otherwise, get factored what they actually make? This way new cars off the dealer lots could feel they have a chance and more manufacturers might want to sponsor cars that actually sound like they are making impressive horsepower numbers. I don't see Comp Cams wanting to run an ad stating a Stocker with their stuff makes 255hp when it's really making close to 500.

NHRA has the mph and weights, it's a simple formula to recalculate horsepower for all combos quarterly.

Weight breaks and indexes would have to be adjusted obviously.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Looking at cost issues, bringing out new engine stuff for 5 year old cars, supercharged cars going against carbureted cars, etc. leads me to think stock might be/become bracket racing with more rules as to the mods you are allowed. Whether you are crafty, careful, or wealthy, more mods or advantages from factory ratings, it all comes down to trying to run fast but not quite too fast. Then, your competitor buys something else and is a bit faster, and everyone has to step up with cam, rockers, brakes, etc. Some combinations are never seen because their factory HP rating was too high compared to other combinations, and NHRA doesn't bother to level that playing field.

So, to level the playing field, keep costs reasonable, and ensure enough cars are in the field, you come down to bracket racing with more rules about what you can modify or change. Is that what you want?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

This is a real good idea. Simple and with an "X" it's now a drivers race. 2008 and newer, no vin you get an "X".

Jeff - Just a fan

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I think there is a strong argument to make that Stock is mostly a bracket race already. It's rather rare that there is a heads up run for an eliminator champion. While this thread was started to express the opinion that new cars are the problem with Stock, I could easily argue that the fifty odd classes are a major problem with Stock. There is very little heads up racing outside of class events. Even at Indy there was 31 Stock class runoffs, 19 were 4 cars or less, only 7 required more than 3 rounds including both FS classes. Those numbers are up since NHRA implemented the combo stick and auto, which I really like.

If someone is trying to "fix" the class how does heads-up racing factor into that?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Just making suggestions.

Here's a few more:

NHRA , Do the X thing for 5 years and see where you're at then..

Only one new FX combo per year, per manufacturer

No retrofits to five year old FX combos.

Quit buying ridiculously low HP ratings at the expense of your long time ,loyal
customers.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

OK, so we got Indy fixed. Shoot NHRA, Shoot all the FS people, Shoot the Hot Dog Stands, they were terrible, Burn the AHFS, Present these 486 ideas to NHRA, but wait, we shot them. Let Bruce have his way and make NHRA dissappear and we won't have a sanction. We can just race each with shoe polish. Maybe we need to vote on it, but wait, who can vote? Drivers, probably; Owners, probably; Keyboard racers; why not. Maybe we need the Chuck Rayburn rule; if you don't have a car or haven't raced in 2 years, you got no vote. I know; let's go back to 1958 (my first race). Street tires 4" wide on a good day, mufflers, take the hub caps off, take the spare out and jack, who needs scales, any fuel that will fire, sleep under the race car you drove to the track, always run in pairs so a chain will get both cars home. Or maybe everyone should have a 69 Camaro which you can buy completely new in parts, and I bet you can't build it for the price of a new car. I think someone on here said there were 71 new cars at Indy, I wonder how many new 69 Camaro's were there. Now, how about a new thread on what to do with the 23 or so other races. Sure the FS needs some attention, but never throw out the baby with the bathwater which seems to be the theme here. I have some ideas (I always got some ideas), but I ain't going on this thread. Too many Great Whites here for this seal to swim in.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I've got a idea and it is pretty simple.At Indy everyone who is entered runs in the eliminator.Now all you have to worry about is getting enough grading points to get entered before it is full.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Quit buying ridiculously low HP ratings at the expense of your long time ,loyal customers.

Mark, I borrowed 1 of your suggestions and did some checking.

Since Scott Burton's name has been mentioned I used that class (B/SA) as an example. I am sure that there are others.

The record as it stands is 10.49 and Scott ran 10.273. Obviously a very good run for his combination. Four cars, including Joey Wilkes @ 9.841, ran quicker than Scott. All 4 cars are 2014 models, 3 Camaros and 1 Mustang.

I know it seems redundant, but maybe that is where much of the problem lies, NHRA buying bogus H.P. ratings by the new cars. And yes it's been going on for several years. I remember the F.I. years of the nineties, or did it start in the late 80's. Probably several before that, but we are talking about the new (2008 and newer) cars.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Mark, I think you have a lot of great ideas!

The idea of having all "FX" cars in a separate eliminator is nice, but aside from Indy, how often are the "FX" cars preventing others from making the field? How often are there enough of them to make a quality show?

I think that NHRA wants to grow the FSS into something bigger, maybe even a professional or semi-professional category outside of Stock. The catch is, the FSS needs to be heads up, or with a limited number of categories (e.g. FS/A and FS/B) to put on the best show.
If we have FS/A, FS/B, FS/C, FS/D, FS/E, FS/F... for every factory combination and run them together like Comp Eliminator, would that really appeal to the masses? We would end up with Luke Ubelhor beating Chris Holbrook or a 352 CJ with a stick beating Bruno Massel...

I say, keep the FS/A and FS/B categories in Stock and run them like a SS Modified class, where the AHFS triggers an index reduction rather than HP addition.
Then maybe you have A/FX, B/FX, C/FX, D/FX for today's A/SA, C/SA, etc. combinations. But I guarantee you there would still be complaining when a factory combination that hasn't been touched (e.g. a stick combination) goes -1.40 under, even though it's in an FX class!

I'm still of the belief that if the HP ratings were correct from the start, 75% of the problem would be gone (how you get them correct is an entirely different discussion...).
Case in point - after Indy, the aforementioned B/SA COPO is now a natural BB/SA COPO. That particular combination will never again beat up on an older car in A/SA or B/SA. Could Chevrolet come out with another "FX" combination @ 380hp that runs B/SA next year? Absolutely, but doesn't that just prove that the entire system is flawed, far beyond the factory cars?

Forgive me for going off topic here, but look at any of Bob Shaw's combinations over the years, the 350 Chevy trucks, Larry Hill's truck with a stick, the fleet of 302 Ford 2bbls, the Dodge Dakotas from the early 00s, the LS1s and LT1s...
All of those guys deserve all of the credit they've ever gotten for going fast - but you can't convince me that those combinations didn't benefit from being in the class guide at their OEM HP rating.
Just like if I built a 352 Cobra Jet tomorrow, I would benefit from it being in the class guide at the so called 285hp "OEM" HP rating.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Now that the older cars ran their heart out and received a gift for the effort it now makes the old cars further away (under index) from qualifying. Some were .5-7 behind new cars and now .8 to 1.00 behind. Not a good feeling Im sure. Any new vehicle falls into x category until a time period (3-5 years) and then can run each other and then be classified into proper class at that time especially when the wrong HP is always going to be given from the start. Something like when the FI cars were sent into their own class and then brought back.This would go for ANY new vehicle introduced into the classification guide. That way things can get into line better without so much ill will from the older type cars. New cars are great and I like them, but play fair.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Sounds like we got you all fired up here today, Big Guy.
You got me a little confused though...I hadn't raced in four years, but I DID race once this year, but I don't own a Stocker right now. Well yes I do, but it's not complete yet, so you see where my confuson lies.

It doesn't much matter to me personally anyway. I have no agenda. I'm just offering suggestions for the good of the sport. As far as I'm concerned, NHRA ruined Stock Eliminator in about 1988 anyway.
If I decide to go to Indy next time, I won't be too worried about getting in the eliminator.

I don't want you to be upset any more today, so I can take my 1/2 vote and leave y'all alone now..It's beer :30 now anyway, isn't it?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Check out the new horsepower ratings after Indy. Those additional ratings should shuffle some of those new cars around. :)

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I can't believe somebody hasn't responded to you yet with the proverbial phrase........."Hey DUDE,you need to work on your car!"

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Sounds like one heck of a good idea Lyn, whats one more round?

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Mark, it went the way it is when NHRA did away with winning class and the class winners ran for the eliminator. But without the change to a bracket race format, Stock would have about 20 cars at Indy as opposed to 28 in B/SA (somewhere around there) and nearly 200 total. And as you say your time ended in 87 and I'm sure most folks that remember have the year it ended for them. One thing about Stock and Super Stock is they are dynamic eliminators and will continue to change. The insurance industry tried to kill them in the late 60's and the early 70's, and then emissions took over in the 70's thru the 80's and the EFI and Engine Management revived the high performance models as they are today and run fast on that stuff called gasoline. So what we are seeing in the racing side is a natural based on the factories search for sales on the reviving High Performance. But then some people prefer the old Omni to the Challenger SRT. I think it is great that NHRA is embracing the new cars as opposed to NASCAR with the clone with stickers with all the same motors and ticket sales down 38%. Sure some adjustment to the program for Indy will be in line. I can think of a few ways and I will send that to NHRA in a week or two after I get rested. Bowling Green and Indy hard on an old guy. Or we could just chootem. Alligator season is the month of Sept, so let us know and we will get some Cajuns to handle that.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Marty -- I have to disagree with you on this one - almost everyone in the 64 first round pairs ( except for a few heads-up races) had the same chance of winning Indy - no wallet in the world can buy you a good light or make you run the number - and thats what it takes ! ! !

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Thats really not a bad idea......I'd vote for it .

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Almost everyone? Ah it's OK let nhra & oems have their way they only cheated a few people. Total BS. Nobody should be cheated.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I got the kind of replies I expected from everyone, but one thing is for sure . The old muscle cars are way cooler than the new ones!

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Jerry savoie pro stock bike has expertise
in gators I have heard if needed...

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I think Jerry supplies Guchi (probably spelled wrong) as well as other heavies in that industry. I understand the season is going well this year. Most gators are farm raised like Savoie, but the tv version is more exciting.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

Greg, "Stockers Are Way Cool" no matter what year, make, or model. Super Stockers are cool too, but Stockers Are Way Cool. I think next year I will go the other way and race my 38 Hudson Teraplane, Red, Fastback, 6 inline Red Diamond engine. This year I am committed to staying on the dark side. NHRA has approved the TP with a 354 Hemi with the 2.9 Whipple blower. Runs Z/S. Index is 1.2 lightyears. Looking for Larry Hill with that one.

Re: What's wrong with Stock?
 

I'll bet Jerry does way better than
t.v. boys even with there t.v. money.
God bless capitalist... Sell them purses,
etc. guchi..