Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Bob- You can flame me all you want but I'm not the enemy - only the messenger ! ! ! As for ""It's all about getting a light and running your number" - even Billy will tell you how wrong you are about me evolving .All of the things you pointed out are and have always been important to me - no exceptions .I must follow the rules just like everyone else and those close to me ( including Billy) will tell you I'll fight to the death to keep things going for Stock and S/S .That said the biggest problem we have is that there are few left in the NHRA tech dept. who can properly police these issues .Better call Dave Ley for example and see if he can clone himself.Or I'm sure I can come with a tech shirt in your size and you can be part of the solution .

PS- Pro Eliminator ?? Me ??? You sir don't know me .BTW, as for National Records I have more than a hundred and every one has memories that can't be bought.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Awww Jack, you just brought a tear to my eye! But I hate to say it, it seems to me that you're trying to play both sides of the street!

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Geez Billy ....a tear ??? Really .I'm not playing both sides of the street - just being a realist ! ! ! It's 2017 with the Donald as Mr.President - who ever thought .It can't be 1969 forever ...............

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Jack, I don't want to have Kenny hollering at me for getting political BUT, seeings as you brought up "The Don", ya know, he is a big by-the-rules guy. And the people who wrote our rules aren't following them anymore. That is the reality of 2017 in the NHRA.
They made the rules, I'll follow their rules, THEY have to remember their rules.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Quote Jack M. : That said the biggest problem we have is that there are few left in the NHRA tech dept. who can properly police these issues .Better call Dave Ley for example and see if he can clone himself.
Dave indeed is one of the most, if not most knowledgable people out there. But let's get back to reality. If he became Nat'l Tech Dir., at the nice fat compensation paid the NTD , how long do you think he'd last in the position if he bucked the biggies in Glendora. The only way the whole NHRA mess will ever be corrected is getting power back the the NHRA membership who will have the power to drain the swamp in Glendora, starting with Gracia,Dim Light (with apologies to Jack), and the upper echelon who have none nothing to improve the lot of all the racers, Pro and Sportsman, since the mid 1990's. But we all know that will never happen. Tyrants will do anything to retain power. They are probably sitting in their cushy offices rooting for the peons to continue the cat fighting, taking the focus away from the way they've dragged the sport into the mud.

The opinion of an X Stock racer forced out by pitiful leadership.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Billy, this argument is kind of irrelevant, if you have the money you can purchase a 727 with 904 parts, that is no different than a turbo 350 or 400 with light weight parts. And many Chebbies use Metric 200's. Stock eliminator as we know it has not been stock eliminator for over 20 years. Either get on board or get out of the way ..

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

I have not defended those things, either.

So what is the point of Stock Eliminator? You can't even call it "Factory-Appearing Eliminator" anymore. It's a farce. Apparently people are content to fiddle on the deck. Sad.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Hi,

As you pointed out, the transmission "revision" to the rules benefits almost all of Stock Eliminator.....

It looks like the manifold deal only benefits 1 combination...

My point is that NHRA can't leave it alone......

Think back 20 or 30 years and the rules would stay the same for years and now there is a new rule every week.....

I understand change, but change just for the sake of change makes no sense....

Bob

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

It was just a question.... plain and simple.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

So I guess everybody thinks the current lot in Glendora will find the magic bullet?
Pretty sad state of affairs.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Billy, Please report to Virginia for your counseling session. Mom has you room ready.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

If someone with a 340 combination would like to use an LD340 intake manifold, they can: run Super Stock.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

The benefit of the doubt is yours Sir.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Did the LD340 come on the 340's in question? Answer: No.

End of story.[/QUOTE]

I think this tells the whole story.

Jim Mantle V/SA 6632

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

I'm surprised no one seems to want to JUST STOP it, NHRA.

Are there a few more personal agendas that need to be slipped through first?

What's the latest "safety" item needed?

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Jim, if someone went through the blueprint specs, quite a few cars do not have the manifold (and plenty other stuff0 that came on the cars. Good example is a 70 350/325 that is in the Camaro that year has a manifold allowed in 2012. Those also run D & E and maybe more. I'm sure there a good explanation for that one. Anyone know? Just look in the blueprint specs and look for the yellow highlight on that combo.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Jeff - The manifold you note for the 1971 Z28 is a Chevrolet produced part to replace the original 594 aluminum intake. The manifold has some slight modifications for throttle linkage bosses and alternator mounting so it could be used on the ZZ3 and ZZ4 crate motors. It's not an apples to apples comparison to the Edelbrock LD340 vs stock cast iron manifold. That's not to say that there are not parts in the tech guides that aren't correct, but it's one thing when the factory proclaims "improved" replacement parts (i.e. Chevy's replacement 401 BB aluminum heads, MoPar's many 559 heads for the Hemi, etc.etc.) and yet a totally different issue when a 50 year old aftermarket part is suddenly made legal that was never proclaimed by the factory as a replacement.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Hi Jeff,

I get it, I really do get it, and I mean that I really really do get it.....

So why does NHRA continue to make the mistakes of the past better by continuing to make mistakes in the present??????

I don't have a clue and obviously neither does the NHRA...

Bob

PS:
I really do get it

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Mr Jeff, The point is ..we know all this.The question is "What do we do about it in 2017 ?"


Suggestion # 1,
Roll everything back to 1980 rules.
(This one won't fly, due to financial loss.)
I will help, if that's the concensus.

#2, Let it fly, until it morphs completely into Bracket II .
(There's probably a few who want the delay boxes too, but we'll go with II for now)

#3, JUST STOP, NOW. NO changes for 5 years.
This would include..No new HP combos before Indy for the FX cars.

Anyone who would like to turn this into an official C/R poll, be my guest.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

We know you really get it,but Mr Jeff is the one that really does not get it.LOL

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

OK, lets start over. That manifold is in the book from not too long ago. It was put in by NHRA, but in checking the validity of this aforementioned manifold NHRA asked Mopar about a Technical Service Bulletin issued in 73 or 74. That bulletin would explain why it was used. NHRA asked Mopar about the manifold. and Mopar asked me as they know I have the parts books back to l960. I looked up that number and it is not there. However casting numbers are in the NHRA book and not part numbers, but from every other manifold (and other parts) in that era, the part number was usually one off (the last digit) from each other. I do not have the old TCB's, but am looking for some people who are just as old as me (maybe not as fat and stupid) that might have a collection of these Bulletins. NHRA has the number of the Bulletin, but I can't find one. Since this started Billy cited Galan Govier, a reknown Chrylser authority on what got produced by Chrysler as they allowed him to look at the old records. According to Billy that number was around, but the part number was preceeded by a "P" which indicates a Chrysler Performance part which would indicate an aftermarket part with no warranty for one thing and usually sold thru dealers and sold by Mopar Performance. A company could be a Mopar Performance dealer or any franchised dealer (which I have been since 1968). If that is the case then it is aftermarket and I have sent this to NHRA in the form of an email. And they agreed to give me a few days to see if anyone has this Bulletin. Blocks, heads, manifolds from what I remember. Now most of the time a "P' number is embossed on the part, but not all the time. I think any race block I have had did have the "P' number embossed on the block. Now if this manifold was produced as a performance item, maybe the "P" was included on the number on the thing. Someone posted a picture of the supposed manifold, but I could not enlarge it enough to see if it, the "P' was there. Maybe someone could look that picture and can see better than me. That would solve the mystery. However from 1968 on emission regulations were an issue and many times a part change was done to correct something especially in the fuel system. We have seen this many times in the years since emission controls. Probably not in this case but it has happened. So obviously I don't get it, but an explanation might be here just as the explanation was offered for the 42 year old Camaro 350. We never raced a 340 except and T/A, and it is still here in Houma with an Edlebrock manifold with the original owner. If we had raced the 4 bbl version, I would probably know. One interesting thing in this whole discussion is obviously folks have a dislike for the 340 as racers have gotten the thing to run really fast. This manifold was never in-the-book legal until 2017. Now if it has been allowed by NHRA for some time and people have been running it then it got by, then maybe we start over. (old saying 'Its not what is legal, it is what passed') And if no one has been running it, then opponents will have no relief.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

If the manifold had a legitmate right to be in the Guide based on a TSB, it should've been put in the Guide when the TSB was issued. This sounds like a case of, "Well, it's been so long now that nobody will really know, and besides, parts are just so hard to find, so they'll accept anything."

"Obviously"? That assertion is unfounded. People are discussing rules. It doesn't matter who runs what combo, how fast anyone's gone, or what manufacturer's part is trying to be shoehorned into the Guide. Again, either the part is legitimate or its not. Everything else is moot.

We have an LD340 manifold in the attic. That doesn't make it legal for Stock.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Hi

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

OK. I will look again at my books and see if I can find that part number in some year. I am also looking for some old Mopar Performance catalogs that might reference it. Or I might just go drink a beer and let everyone go home.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Jeff, go to post #121 on this thread. Click on the tag. It will bring you to a 1973 parts manual (Jan.73). Go to page 2-12 of the manual. Look at Chrysler part #P3549884. You're welcome.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

I will not run the aluminum manifold on
any of our cars even if legal. Our Iron stuff
is faster on our cars in testing. I will be just
as pleased if it is outlawed...... as far as we are concerned

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Since I have no idea who you are I have a couple of questions that might help me understand your position......

Have you ever lost a heads up race??

Does the outcome of a race matter to you??

If you have lost a heads up race what actions did you take to prevent it from happening again. That is if you do care about it happening again??

Did you find a class or eliminator to run that had no heads up racing??

Are you having fun drag racing, if you drag race??

I am just attempting to find the reason that you participate in this type of drag racing and if in fact you do participate??

Thank you,
Bob Mulry

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Reality strikes Stock and SS parts supply and methods of correcting.
Allowing one aftermarket head, carb, manifold begins to get in the direction of a Spec motor doesn't it? Just killing the classes one piece at a time instead of allowing everyone to make the changes all at once and be more level field. Just my humble opinion.I know I don't own one today.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

I wonder why Mopar sold the LD340? The consensus on here seems to be that the iron is faster.
I'm enjoying the discussion immensely.
Stock has evolved so much over the years, I wonder if anyone at NHRA even understands how it started out, and how it has evolved?

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

It is apparent to me that you totally missed the point of # 2

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

The factory iron stuff is pretty stout....on my 383, holley aluminum intake versus a AS DELIVERED iron intake, ie not touched, stock, no difference other than weight of course.

The only advantage of the LD340 I have seen over the years is ease of lifting it out, when you are doing head gaskets, and it "looked" faster, and was cheaper than trying to find the correct year #s manifold when doing a restoration. One less thing to paint.

Eric

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Billy, I never heard of that. No doubt it existed as you have one. The performance stuff started in the past and the ones I remember are direct connection and Mopar Performance. Where that came from I don't know. What I have is the franchise dealer parts manuals back to 60. But it would not surprise me. The 69 Dart and Cuda with the 440 were never in any dealer manual, but they made the cars and on the assembly line as opposed to the 64,65, and 68 Hemi stuff which were partial assemblies sorta like the Drag Paks of today. If I can find it, good. If I can't find it, good. So now you are the Tonto of new parts allowed. You scout it out, and the forum will work on it. By the way, you do know that Kemo Sabre means Trusted Scout. Surely you are a Lone Ranger fan.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Mr. Jeff, I have an"Ace-in-the Hole"! My sweetie is a retired Library Director. If it exists, she can probably find it.

As far as the Tonto stuff, I think I'll be happy just being the "Crazy Old Man who lives on a hill in Pennsylvania.

OBTW, you have a P.M.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

This might be overdue......................

I would like to thank Billy and Jeff, along with many others in attempting to locate the documentation that would either allow or disallow the revision to the Blueprint Specifications.....

Thanks,

Bob


PS:
I know that I am yelling, but I think that it is appropriate....

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

I guess I should have added a 4th option.

#4 , Just bitch about anything and everything until the whole country is racing again.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Sorry, Billy you are Tonto. You can see your star every weekday on Ch 367 on DTV. My schedule is lunch, followed by a nap till 2 then the Lone Ranger. and Tonto. About once a year you get the one hour version about the creation of the Lone Ranger and Tonto and the bad guys. That bit of information is worth the extensive 24 page reading of this mostly factual and somewhat embellished wing.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

With option #4 you don't even have to do a poll.

No I don't have a dog in this fight but sure love to read Jeff's posts, the bad part being I'm old enough to know what he's talking about.

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

irrelevant

Re: Important if you run D-H/S or SA
 

Just a question????????

Did you mean yourself?????