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-   -   Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=20913)

69ss/rs 10-21-2009 07:46 PM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwydendorf (Post 146981)
There are plenty of late model engine combos available to run in Super Stock. If you can't find the heads you need at an affordable price, try running something that you can find heads for. If aluminum heads are made legal across for all Super Stocks, then everyone has obsolete heads and the market dries up to sell the heads that everyone has alot of time and money into. It just makes Super Stock racing that much more expensive. The AHFS can't adjust the horsepower factors now, let alone if you add more Aluminum heads to the game. Keep things the way they are.
If we where to follow your thinking, then as the supply of heads and blocks for the older combos runs out; we al will just put in the newer motor combos in the older body cars. But wait! don't they do that now and call them GT class. What happens to the older combos, we just forget about them and hope they just go away; or if they want to continue to race then they will have to put in the newer motor combo or sell the car.

69ss/rs 10-21-2009 08:26 PM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
For all of you that want to cry about the expense; I can tell you from experience. I have one of each, and aluminum head motor and a steel head motor so I know the cost for a fact. First the aluminum heads cost me more to purchase, but they where new not 40 years old, second they didn't have to be checked for cracks, sent out to be welded. Bottom line is that the aluminum head motor actually cost a couple thousand dollars less to build; best part is that I don't have to drain my motor at the end of the day. So; the expense part is crap! I don't care if the replacement heads are steel or aluminum, but it would be easier for the replacement heads to be made of the same material for sake of HP and weight that needs to be added. I said aluminum, because most of the replacement heads allowed now are aluminum; so why not stay constant. Finally some type of replacement has to happen in order for traditional classes, not GT remain alive and well.

treessavoy 10-22-2009 02:35 PM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Roehrich (Post 147195)
Yeah, Jim, you are wrong. I buy, on average 10-12 sets of aluminum heads a year. The UP FRONT cost on the GMPP aluminum big block head is the same as the Edelbrock Ford FE head, or the Edelbrock Oldsmobile head. In the last 3 years, we've bought 4-5 sets of 401 casting GMPP big block NHRA legal aluminum heads. And 3-4 sets of Edelbrock NHRA legal FE Ford heads. And a set of the Oldsmobile Edelbrock heads. They are all within $200 in cost, per pair. Sorry Jim, you're absolutely wrong, period. You can only buy the GMPP 401 head from a GMPP dealer, such as Pace or Scoggin Dickey. You can buy the Edelbrock NHRA legal heads from anyone who sells Edelbrock.

And BSA 633 is right, if you use the GMPP 401 head to replace the old cast iron closed chamber head, it requires $2000 worth of work, including reaming the guides, angle milling the head, spot facing the bolt holes, and correcting the angle on the intake flange.

And I'm NOT advocating opening up the rules to allow more aftermarket stuff in Stock or Super Stock. All I'm doing here is correcting some seriously incorrect information.
Alan,

These figures are from Jegs for NHRA accepted for a set of bare heads: BBP..$1512.00; BBO..$ 1534.00; BBF..$1200.00. I went to the Scoggins site and could not find a listing for a 401 head but found a 410 bare head at $ 1500.00. The price for a set of legal BBM heads will be in the $ 5000.00 to $10,000.00 range because they would have to be tooled and produced....no one make anything near legal at this time ( this estimate from Indy heads for first run).

Couldn't find figures on AMC or any of the other small block combinations out there .....what do they do while everyone else gets aluminum heads?

I stand corrected about the chevy BB heads, it looks like the price is about the same for a bare head.

JimR

treessavoy 10-22-2009 02:43 PM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69ss/rs (Post 147278)
Al, haven't you been paying attention; I said before go on to Edelbrocks' website an you will see that they already have 90% of the heads that we are talking about. Indy Cylinder Heads and some other manufacturers will fill the missing heads that are needed. Lets' face it sooner or later NHRA has to start allowing replacement heads and blocks into the mix, because the manufacturers in most cases don't make the parts any longer. Your leave it the way it is thinking, is the reason that the car manufacturers are in the shape that they are in today. You have to look at the big picture, not just the here and now. What do you propose be done as the supply of available parts are depleted and no new parts are being made to replace them?
Neither Indy nor Edelbrock make a legal set of heads for the big or small Mopars and I looked at the Edelbrock site and they list only THREE sets of NHRA accepted heads: BBF, BBO, and BBP; nothing for Amc and Buick and they list no legal aluminum heads for any of the small blocks.

JimR

Jim Kaekel 10-22-2009 02:58 PM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
The big block Olds/Edelbrock head is legal in Super Stock only.

442OLDS 10-22-2009 09:29 PM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kaekel (Post 147396)
The big block Olds/Edelbrock head is legal in Super Stock only.
It is beyond me how Edelbrock never corrects their website.They claim that the Edelbrock Oldsmobile heads are accepted for Stock.If so,we both would probably have them,right?

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ads/nhra.shtml

dwydendorf 10-23-2009 07:40 AM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 147054)
Keep things the way they are?

I'm wondering if the SS/GT class was created (in part) because the 40 year old bodies were getting hard / expensive to come by?

Take the same gripes about aluminum heads and apply it to the GT classes. Seems like the issues are nearly identical.
The Super Stock Gt cars were created because Nhra and the oem manufacturers needed to showcase the new body styles that were comming out of Detroit in the early 1980's. Nhra has always sought the manufacturers for sponsorship money and many Super Stock racers were opting to build older cars instead of the newer Smog motor combos. Newer engine combos were fewer and so Nhra decided to allow the older engines to be mated to a newer body style, offering more combinations and offering the racers the option of racing an engine that was already developed. I have never heard of a lack of older bodies was the reason for the GT classes being created, after all look how many SS/AH hemi cars are in the mix and many of them are clones. If you have enough money you can find an older body, same with head castings.

dwydendorf 10-23-2009 08:01 AM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69ss/rs (Post 147280)
If we where to follow your thinking, then as the supply of heads and blocks for the older combos runs out; we al will just put in the newer motor combos in the older body cars. But wait! don't they do that now and call them GT class. What happens to the older combos, we just forget about them and hope they just go away; or if they want to continue to race then they will have to put in the newer motor combo or sell the car.
What I should have said was that the aluminum heads should be replaced on an indivudal basis for each engine combo, the way it is now, not to replace the older heads across the board, as was suggested in the title of this post. There should also be more incentive to use the older heads(i.e. more horsepower, maybe more than is in place now) so the racers that choose to use the older heads are not at a disadvantage. I do not feel that making aluminum heads legal will save the racers any money because head porters will still port the new castings thin like the oem castings in a search for even more horsepower and everyone will be back where they started.

Jeff Lee 10-23-2009 10:57 AM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwydendorf (Post 147487)
The Super Stock Gt cars were created because Nhra and the oem manufacturers needed to showcase the new body styles that were comming out of Detroit in the early 1980's. Nhra has always sought the manufacturers for sponsorship money and many Super Stock racers were opting to build older cars instead of the newer Smog motor combos. Newer engine combos were fewer and so Nhra decided to allow the older engines to be mated to a newer body style, offering more combinations and offering the racers the option of racing an engine that was already developed. I have never heard of a lack of older bodies was the reason for the GT classes being created, after all look how many SS/AH hemi cars are in the mix and many of them are clones. If you have enough money you can find an older body, same with head castings.
There was discussion involving availability / cost of the older bodies although you are correct the emphasis was on the newer bodies and appealing to the dollars available from Detroit from a marketing perspective.
What I'm trying to say is the same gripes that were heard from racers of "traditional" SS racers (same make / model / year engine in like chassis) would be the same arguments against non-oem aluminum heads being used today. I'd like to spend more time here but have work to do. So follow along with my poor logic and lousy comparisons....

GT gets a more aerodynamic car - SS has to deal w/ cast iron issues
GT gets a newer car that's easy to find - SS gets a head thats hard and expensive to find
GT gets a car that doesn't have 100,000 miles on it - SS gets a metal fatigued car
GT says build one; your allowed - SS says, "I've had this car 20 years & not changing"

Hopefully you can see my point that these things just keep happening with NHRA, everybody has their point of view, they all hunker down together and in the end life goes on.

I'm for aluminium heads (about $1500 from Edelbrock for my AMC) because I don't think one group deserves an advantage over another. Will I rush out and buy a set tomorrow if approved? No, can't afford it right now. But if / when my cast iron heads start leaking all over I sure will appreciate that option.

And nobody has mentioned thermal efficiency. Maybe the guy with a 8.5:1 compression engine won't benefit from aluminum heads? So let him run his choice.

Stephen & Horace Johnson 10-23-2009 02:41 PM
Re: Making Aluminum Heads Legal for all SuperStockers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwydendorf (Post 147494)
What I should have said was that the aluminum heads should be replaced on an indivudal basis for each engine combo, the way it is now, not to replace the older heads across the board, as was suggested in the title of this post. There should also be more incentive to use the older heads(i.e. more horsepower, maybe more than is in place now) so the racers that choose to use the older heads are not at a disadvantage. I do not feel that making aluminum heads legal will save the racers any money because head porters will still port the new castings thin like the oem castings in a search for even more horsepower and everyone will be back where they started.
one of the biggest advantages of alum heads is that they are easier to fix than cast iron. If you try to weld up cast iron, you're goin to develop a crack somewhere else.. You should try looking for a set of 427 Ford heads, good luck!! They are all torn and busted up!!the price of an alum 427 head is a whole lot cheaper than a cast iron head. I dont think they deserve a 10HP increase though, but thats my .02!!


Stephen Johnson #2162
Horace Johnson #2167
SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane NHRA-IHRA


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