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-   -   Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=28838)

Bob Pagano 10-12-2010 02:27 PM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwydendorf (Post 215859)
Didn't Ben Wenzel win stock at the 67 Nationals with a 290 hp z-28 and Bobby Warren win the World Championship with a 255 hp 350 in a 69 Nova about 1970? I remember several 427 Galaxies and 427 Impalas running in stock back in the days. Even an occasional 427 Powered Station Wagon were all running in STOCK!
Yea but you MISSED the point, the factory cars of the early 60s that were being mentioned at 425 hp was bogus but they did not run Stock, the weight breaks did not change till 64 and the lite weight cars still could NOT run Stock.

Qwikpony 10-13-2010 12:23 PM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 215800)
Do you really think that the OEM's submitted "HONEST" HP numbers in the "Good Old Days"?
They weren't 200-300 HP off though and that is the big difference. Let's face it, that would be like comparing a bogus DZ-302 Hp rating to a bogus '23 T-bucket HP rating. It is a 40 year technolgy difference. I'm all for the HP wars, but not at the expense of the older cars. A separate class is the answer and let them turn 'em loose on each other.

GUMP 10-13-2010 01:40 PM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwikpony (Post 216096)
They weren't 200-300 HP off though and that is the big difference. Let's face it, that would be like comparing a bogus DZ-302 Hp rating to a bogus '23 T-bucket HP rating. It is a 40 year technolgy difference. I'm all for the HP wars, but not at the expense of the older cars. A separate class is the answer and let them turn 'em loose on each other.
You do realize that ALL of the HP ratings are bogus, right? I can't think of one combination in the books that is actually rated at the HP that it is making.

dwydendorf 10-13-2010 01:55 PM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwikpony (Post 216096)
They weren't 200-300 HP off though and that is the big difference. Let's face it, that would be like comparing a bogus DZ-302 Hp rating to a bogus '23 T-bucket HP rating. It is a 40 year technolgy difference. I'm all for the HP wars, but not at the expense of the older cars. A separate class is the answer and let them turn 'em loose on each other.
The difference in the old days was that you could actually dominate the whole race, instead of just winning class and an occasional heads up race. Eliminations were based off your National record at the time and you could run as much as .010 under without breaking out. At that time ( back in the late 1960's to early 1970's) you could win a few thousand dollars as opposed to a few hundred for a class win today for having a very fast car. Now you just get a class win and bragging rights instead of winning the whole eliminator.

Qwikpony 10-13-2010 08:29 PM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 216110)
You do realize that ALL of the HP ratings are bogus, right? I can't think of one combination in the books that is actually rated at the HP that it is making.
Gump,
You are right in the sense that most combinations have been flogged very diligently by their owners, so pretty much every engine makes more than it's factor. However, everyone knows that a "Super Snake" makes 725 Hp with a smaller blower pulley and different tune. Other than those 2 items, the engine is the same as any other Shelby. I think you have misunderstood the meaning of the use of "bogus" when referring to the HP numbers. The late 60's & early 70's musclecars were SLIGHTLY underrated from the factory (say 35-50 HP) but the real intent was to get insurance companies to write a policy on these cars their owners could afford. I think the new cars are great for the sport but they need a little tweaking so as not to run out the older cars. I can't afford 80 G's for a new DP or CJ and I sure as hell don't want to drive 10-20 hours roundtrip and spend a few thousand only to be blasted in the first round by 6 car lengths over the course of a season. There are some people who always fall into the same bracket on the ladder. I would believe that you must own one of these new beasts and if you don't, please let me know your thoughts after a few "heads up" encounters. I doubt you'll be thrilled by losing by 5 cars to a guy who had an .850 light.

GUMP 10-13-2010 11:49 PM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwikpony (Post 216204)
The late 60's & early 70's musclecars were SLIGHTLY underrated from the factory (say 35-50 HP) but the real intent was to get insurance companies to write a policy on these cars their owners could afford.
That is true, but you have to admit that it also gave them an advantage in class. But that really isn't what I was talking about. Do you really believe that any "good" Stocker is making the HP that is posted in the classification guide? The HP numbers are nothing but a factor. It is wrong to suggest that the new cars should be adjusted by their true HP without addressing the true HP of every combination.


Quote:
I think the new cars are great for the sport but they need a little tweaking so as not to run out the older cars.
I agree with this if it is done in a fair manner.


Quote:
I would believe that you must own one of these new beasts and if you don't, please let me know your thoughts after a few "heads up" encounters.
I have a Challenger sitting in my shop along with a Camaro. I am waiting to see what the NHRA does with these classes before I commit to building anything.

Currently, I run an LT1 Formula. We ran Top Stock at quite a few IHRA Division 9 events over the last few years (NHRA style). The racing was very close. I would love to see at least one FX class where these new cars can run heads-up.

Qwikpony 10-14-2010 03:47 AM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 216233)
That is true, but you have to admit that it also gave them an advantage in class. But that really isn't what I was talking about. Do you really believe that any "good" Stocker is making the HP that is posted in the classification guide? The HP numbers are nothing but a factor. It is wrong to suggest that the new cars should be adjusted by their true HP without addressing the true HP of every combination.

I know for a fact that a "good" stocker makes about 200 HP over it's factor.I also know that a new CJ makes 300 over (725-425=300). Imagine how fast these will be when these guys learn how to disassemble and "blueprint" them like the 200 over "good" stockers have already done. A perfect example of this is AA/S. Robert Pond's Fairlane is wicked fast(after 15 years of R&D) and Fezell put 3 tenths on Pond's record almost "out of the box". Congratulations for Fezell, but C'Mon Man... really?


I agree with this if it is done in a fair manner.




I have a Challenger sitting in my shop along with a Camaro. I am waiting to see what the NHRA does with these classes before I commit to building anything.

Currently, I run an LT1 Formula. We ran Top Stock at quite a few IHRA Division 9 events over the last few years (NHRA style). The racing was very close. I would love to see at least one FX class where these new cars can run heads-up.
I kinda figured you to have one of those cars. I really don't think your LT1 could run with your new Challenger no matter how fast it is. I know there are a few differences in the Top Stock rules, but I still figure that if you prepare your DP like your LT1, it's not even close.

Ed Wright 10-14-2010 08:49 AM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Let's compare the 5.9L DP & the much maligned LT1 which share the same 275 hp factory rating.
The DP has:
Ten more cubic inches.
One full point compression, 11.57 vs 10.5.
2.02" vs 1.94" intake valves.
1.6" vs 1.5" ex valves.
Much bigger, much higher flowing ports, before porting.
1000 cfm vs 750 cfm throttle body.
Let me make those changes to my LT1 and you won't see me running any tens. You would have to be terrifically stupid to think there is anything right about this deal. You can't blame the guys for having them, but they should not be disappointed when the guys they beat in heads-up races aren't impressed with their performance, or respect their car building ability. It's a so-what deal.
What if guys runs them heads-up a couple hundred lbs light? If you go across the scales 200 light you shouldn't get a hp hit, right? As long as they do get hit, right?

GUMP 10-14-2010 09:13 AM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwikpony (Post 216245)
I kinda figured you to have one of those cars. I really don't think your LT1 could run with your new Challenger no matter how fast it is. I know there are a few differences in the Top Stock rules, but I still figure that if you prepare your DP like your LT1, it's not even close.
I'm not exactly sure where you are going with this. Anyone that feels an LT1 car can run heads-up with any of the new cars is going to have hurt feelings. Originally I thought the idea of GM, Ford, and Mopar fighting it out in AA was a great idea. But, now that there are so many combinations being published I feel that the NHRA should make a new class.

Greg Hill 10-14-2010 09:28 AM
Re: Ford CJ's and Mopar DP's NHRA is now on the case
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUMP (Post 216110)
You do realize that ALL of the HP ratings are bogus, right? I can't think of one combination in the books that is actually rated at the HP that it is making.
A good stock eliminator motor will make about 1 and 1/2 times it's rated hp. If your motor only makes it's rated hp it probably won't run the index.


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