Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Yes!!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Exactly.

And a lot of us want more performance incentives added, such as class contested at every event, as well as real points and real money paid for winning class and qualifying well. The balance is off, and it can be adjusted to be improved.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Look at my proposal to Nhra. Probably back on page 18 by now.....
.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Thats because they are not stock.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

And, their indexes are way too soft.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

NHRA Stock is not "Stock" anymore either and NHRA cars typically enjoy a .3 softer index in IHRA. Since crate engines don't run heads-up against "conventional" Stockers, what's the problem? There aren't that many top qualifying crates and the majority of top qualifiers typically depends on the region that a particular event is contested in. Some events have more crates near the top while others have more conventional cars. But if more NHRA cars showed up, there would be more of them at the top. Either way, both "types" have an index and specs that have to be met. Dial it and may the best driver/tuner win. Crates can run Holley carbs or OEM. There are both carbs in NHRA, just not optional. But they still have to be tuned.


I've mentioned it before.....I built an IHRA combo because it was more affordable to build as well as to attend their events. Plus, I knew nothing about Thermoquads. My budget finally did allow me to finish a Mopar Stocker last year, after a few years time and a lot of help from another racer. It ran the 1/4 mile index with no tuning, but mechanical issues have kept it sidelined. I have nothing against heads-up races. I know I'll never be among the fastest, but I'll just do the best I can and be happy that I can race. Fortunately there still are "class" and heads-up races. But Stock can't survive with that as a priority, despite the emphasis on performance. Look at it this way, if more people find it worthwhile to get involved in Stock, just can't afford to be a top contender in their class, there will be more opportunities for the existing top contenders to win heads-up runs!


Bottom line is that if moral and enthusiasm isn't boosted, just degraded by complaining and looking for faults or excuses, there won't be a class for Stock in either sanctioning body. I admire the original concept of Stock and IHRA Pure Stock. But seriously, Stock ISN'T Stock anymore. Crates do promote interest in the class, IHRA and NHRA. But people need to look at the positives, work together and race together, which can encourage more people to participate with whatever combo and at whatever level they can afford. I'm glad I got my foot in the door because I don't know how much longer that door will stay open.


It's all been said before with little positive result. But, FWIW, I feel a little better after expressing my views. :)

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Not only is it the Heads up racing that helped define our Class Racing.
There is also who became Number one qualifier.
Class Racing has bragging rights...such as setting a National Record.

Our cars have something to measure against.
Our cars have to be more refined.
Limited on what we can do to go fast.
Yet need brains and wit to do it.
Plus the huge variety of combinations that Bracket Racers would never consider.

Bracket Racing is fun....but having a Stocker is Funner!...

I think IHRA is brilliant trying to think outside the box.
Crate Motor class has brought back a host of cool cars.
Especially car with harder to find engines.

Wish there was a version of Pure Stock that could use Crate Engines.
Using same Pure Stock Rules, identify a set of approved engines.
Especially ones that exist and bolt in.

Stock Rocks.

D

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Im with you brother, they act as if we are not worthy. If they think they dont have crate motors they are kidding them selves, there motors are as crate as ours ours. They built them just like we built ours, with a parts list from the same rule book. The complainers must want the class to die the way I look at it. Im building a 350 330hp crate right now and proud to say it !!!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Really?! You think NHRA Stock Eliminator will die without allowing crate motor classes in to muddy the waters?
According to my most recent Nitro Joe Stats book (July 2017 edition), IHRA Stock total car count for 1/8th mile events was 116 cars, of which 37 were crate engine classes. For 1/4 mile events, there was a total of 54 cars in Stock (all classes), with TWO crate motor cars! (by the way, at 1/8th mile events, there was a whopping FIVE Pure Stockers and in 1/4 mile ONE Pure Stocker.
By comparision, the same time period showed a total of 1081 Stockers were entered in NHRA events. Maybe a bit lower than in past years, but hardly withering on the vine, even without Create Motor, Pure Stock, Stock GT, or seperate FI classes.
Also, saying that a Crate motor is exactly the same as NHRA Stocker engine is ridiculous. Although NHRA has allowed SOME combinations to use approved aftermarket cylinder heads, or similar configuration carburators, and in a few cases intake manifolds, it is hardly the same as IHRA Crate engines which can be mostly built from aftermarket pieces right out of the Summit or Jegs catalog.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Xx

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Amen !!! I bought a complete 350ci 330hp crate from Jeg's and all I have to do is add my cam, springs, lifters, intake and carb and its ready to go. Still all this bickering needs to stop, grow up tighten your belt and go race your car and enjoy yourself.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Love the top stock days until it got sold, never was much of a player but did have lane choice on occasion. You got a good start on an engine just need to finish it up with a little factory cast iron. Its amazing what can be done in your own shop. "All the experts don't live out of town"

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

A little factory cast iron? Oh,oh,oh,yeah, we're talking about a Chevy.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

10 years ago the 350/330 was using a vortec head that you can literally find on Craigslist for a couple hundred bucks. 10 year from today, the 350/330 will be using the same head. As a current CM racer, I can promise I'll never ask IHRA or "maybe" nhra to approve a bogus aluminum cylinder head even though there is the 350/385 that runs one but the specs of the engine are much different. Only aftermarket stuff you really need is maybe a block which is very unnecessary (mine is a stock 350 .060 4 bolt main, nothing special) Actually bought it off Craigslist for $250 then had it decked and honed. Got lucky it was a decent piece. most use a victor jr and a holley 750. Some guys might get crazy with the trick ring package, not me. Way to expensive and not worth it. These are not fancy or special engines. At farmington this past wknd I literally rolled off the trailer, put gas in and went to staging cause I was in a hurry (barely had time to check tire pressure which was a little low) to make a pass and still went low 6.60's.
It's a low maintenance engine that can go 100's of runs before a freshen up, as is the 350/385 with aluminum heads with a larger cam ect...

It's very simple, guys that have 25-30k in there rockets can't handle getting put on the trailer by a low budget CM. It's a pride thing. But really, when the light turns green, are you not going to go because the other guy has a crate motor?

Funny thing is, the best sportsman racer in the history of drag racing has no problem mixing it up with IHRA guys as well as numerous other guys that were even at Indy this year in stock, some who were even class winners. Simply put, if you're a racer then strap up and race regardless of your opoonents combo. If you build a car for the prestige, go to Barret Jackson.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

A Victor single plane race intake and a Holley 750 (likely a double pumper too?) Sounds like about 2/3rds of the cars in Pro Bracket. I dount that too many NHRA racers are concerned about one of the dozen or so crate motor cars putting them on the trailer, since they are not NHRA legal anyhow, and I doubt they ever will be.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Xx

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Stocker:
Aftermarket rods, pistons, crank, cam, chain, lifters, roller rockers, valves, retainers and locks, headers, waterpump, damper, elec fan, batt...should I go on?

Crate:
Aftermarket rods, pistons, crank, cam, chain, lifters, roller rockers, valves, retainers and locks, headers, waterpump, damper, elec fan, batt

The difference? Crate motors have a different # on the intake/carb. The head is still a specific number and needs to fit those specs.

I have the parts for a M/CM if I ever get around to building it, but I'm also keeping an eye out for parts to build it as a U/SA. (of course one of those contentious 302 2bbls lol)

There are NO older cars/parts here in the rust belt. I had to drive 2 hr's to meet a guy at a truck stop to get my GT40P heads!
79 302 heads/intake and carb? Are you kidding me??? That's ebay or ordering from the States. And cast iron heads and intake ordered on line?? no postal fees there huh?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I believe that Crate Motor Cars that run in IHRA are built with the "spirit" of building a traditional stocker. I think the rules allow 10.5" tires, but I don't know of too may folks who use more than a 9" although I have never looked very close.

While it is true the bottom ends and valve train are after market for most stockers, I don't think anyone would disagree that it is considerably "easier" to use a new aluminum intake and new carburetor as opposed to scouring through junkyards looking for intakes, head castings, and carburetors. I would wager that most who have what is considered a fast traditional carbureted stocker have piles of intakes, heads, and carbs not to mention the time and effort of testing to find out which pieces actually work the best.
Some would argue that crate motor guys could or actually do the same thing, but I would bet most really don't compared with someone who has used what Mr. Hill calls a "little factory iron".

Crate Motor stockers fulfill a niche that IHRA needs, but its pretty clear to me that in most parts of the country, NHRA does not need them.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Chris, I agree but I would add this for clarity;
If we could wander through the junk yards and u-picks and find parts for a pre 1996 car here, then it would work fine. Buy four or five intake/heads/carbs to see what flows the best etc. Problem is, its just not out there. Travel west or south a couple thousand miles and buy a truck load of parts to bring home I suppose.

What about building a newer car? Lots of post 1996 cars in the junk yards right?
Well, for ford you have the option of running a mustang...or a mustang...or possibly a mustang.

Nobody said it was easy or should be easy etc. Got it. That's not the point though. If you want new blood in the sport (who aren't retired) then don't make it such an exclusive club that only people with $$$ can play. Crate motors are not as popular out west or way down south, wonder why? (love to hit a junkyard down there someday)

I was on kijiji and saw a 64 Galaxie for sale, problem is, it doesn't have the original 352. So, either build it as a crate engine car or forget it as there's no hope in hell of ever finding the correct parts, let alone "several sets to see what's the best".
Instead, another "not feasible" car doesn't go to the track.

Anyway, those that hate will keep on hating, those that accept them will keep on building/racing them. Whatever, I just want to race and I see a crate engine as a easier/quicker/cheaper way to get there.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Sorry goingbroke, but thats a bit of a cop out. When I started building my 85 Mustang for M/Stock, I needed to find the correct 1 year only cylinder heads, and an intake manifold that was only used in 84 & 85, and the correct 4180 Holley carb. It did not take me long at all to obtain 6 pairs of cylinder heads, 3 intake manifolds, and 6 carbs. And none of this was thru EBay, or any internet forums, just some junkyard and swap meet scrounging, and putting out the word to Ford enthusiasts. I actually enjoyed the hunting for the needed pieces, met some interesting people and made some good contacts. Just because the local wrecking yard is not full of 30, 40 or 50 year old cars does NOT mean there is nothing available, just takes a bit of digging. I am sure with forums such as this, and Ebay, I could find dozens of these "unobtainables" in fairly short order. If the guys running 50+ year old cars that were sold in very limited numbers, (like 413 & 426 Max Wedge MoPars, 427 Fords, Hemis, 302 Z/28s etc) can find that stuff, finding much newer, and more common production stuff should be a breeze. Just takes a bit of effort. Class racing is NOT SUPPOSED to be so easy that anybody can do it. Frankly, I wish that NHRA had never allowed anywhere near as much superseded/approved stuff into Stock as they have, I would hate to see the class more diluted than it already is.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Thanks for all of your lovely advice. But let me splain something to you. Nhra Stock racers built and or purchase their cars to run in the NHRA system. It's not our problem that you wish to run a low budget crate motor car. There are tons of races for you to attend. Enjoy your car where you are wanted. And for the record this discussion has been going on for decades and nothing has happened. And if nhra ever allows crate motor cars into Stock they won't be the low budget variety. They will be the new OEM motors and not what you're thinking at all. Get used to it!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Crate Motor Classes were discussed 25 years ago.
Object to build combinations to the spirit of Stock.
Nice to see Vegas, Pintos, 55/57 Chevys, Barracudas with updated combinations!
It worked and GT Classes and Pure Stock were added to round out the needs racers were asking for!

Certainly more realistic than the FS Factory ready to race cars.
I remember the pride A Stockers had when they first started breaking into the 9's.
Now talking 2 seconds for a 7 second 150 mph Stocker.
One racer wrote adding a Roll Bar to a U/SA for fear of being rear ended by an FS car...!

One other idea.
What is missing are people setting National Records in IHRA.
Setting one always creates a Buzz of Excitement...
Wish IHRA would give 5 points as incentive to do that.
It would be one of the small things that would help attract more racers.

Especially those lazy CM owners!

D

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Bruce !! maybe you need it splained to you !! NHRA already is allowing crate motors in S/SS !! So if you don't build a new 25.000$ plus crate motor you don't count as an NHRA class racer ?? A low budget motor will be just what it is, like a traditional car without all the new enhancements. A way to race and maybe not stand a chance against the best in your class , but a way to get out there and race . So the new OEM motors aren't crate motors ?? This holier than thou hypocrisy in S/SS is amazing !! As everyone pushes for non stock parts to gain an advantage while moaning about a car you'll never race heads up .

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

I just love you no name guys. You, of course, splained nothing. I'm talking about Stock. We all know the new OEM motors are in SS. But there are none in older cars in Stock. You want in the back door of Stock with your garden variety low budget crate motor cars when others have spent their money and built their cars for nhra racing. Go build a legitimate nhra Stocker (budget or expensive) and you will be welcomed with open arms but you will not make it in with the budget crate motor cars. nhra already has way more Stockers than it wants. A Division Director told me that "if" anything was ever to be allowed it would be the new oem motors (read expensive) and that they have absolutely no interest in opening the door to the old ihra crate motor cars. I hope you understand my splaination this time. But I doubt it!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

If nhra let crate motor stockers run, there still be low car counts. To many key board racers that wanna wine and bitch.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

If you you build an IHRA only combo, go run IHRA.
If you want to run both, be bright enough to build a combo that fits both. Don't expect rule changes to make you happy.
Simple, right?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Sounds like perfect logic to me!!

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

and

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

My car came from the factory with an LT1 engine, and that is what is in it now. It is a '96 model, I bought in 1997, it was 18 months old with 36,000 miles on it, with an LT1 engine & automatic transmission.

You evidently built that car for IHRA, you can still run it there, right?
You can also bracket race it at NHRA tracks, right?
But, expect THE major sanctioning body to make new rules for you?
You built the wrong car for NHRA, other than et brackets.
You did not understand that when you built it?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Sounds like a suggestion for the IHRA

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Xx

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

They can bracket race. It has become too much like that now anyway, unless we have a heads up. If you have a "low budget" car, you likely would not enjoy one of those anyway.
I mean, I'm offended I can't afford to run Comp. I think, to be fair to poor guys like me, NHRA should make some classes for basically Stock engines for guys like me trying to race on their Social Security checks. :-)

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Eddie

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Same advice to you if you want to run NHRA Stock.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

How is putting a different engine in a stocker going to be cheaper? Where can you buy a 2500$ engine that can run stock? Explain to me the savings? Do you think a stock ZZ4 or a stock 5.3 LS out of a pickup truck in the salvage yard will run the index in any car? Do you think it will be competitive in a heads up? Will it qualify for Indy? Unfortunately our class isn't what it was in the 60's and 70's. There are 40 and 50 K engines in stockers now that run A through E. You had some expensive rides back in the day. You should be able to relate

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Bb

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Stock Eliminator is alive and well. We had over 120 cars at the Indy LODRS event last month.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

The biggest problem with adding crate motor and Pure stock classes to NHRA competition is that there is already too many different classes in both stock and Super Stock. There is nothing wrong with these two classes but there has to be a line drawn when it comes to the amount of classes. Super Stock is already out of control wit GT. FSS and the modified classes. Modified, Super modified, and the modified trucks need to be moved over to comp and revise the comp class to something that can survive and get a car count. NHRA racing is not for everyone. If you want to race an NHRA class then you have to build or buy a car that fits those classes. Simple enough.
There is no cheap way to drag race at this level anymore.

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

Heard the same argument from fast cars being beat by cheaper slow cars etc.

Can a crate motor car throw any cam in it? No.
Any head? No.
Any valvetrain? No.

So what makes it a crate motor? Well, you have to run a particular set of parts as per their part number. The carb is a 750 holley for small blocks and 850 for big...can I run any carb on a crate? No!
So what's left? Ahhh...the intake. ANY intake is allowed, which is like totally different than a LD340 intake on a ....or a certain intake on 283's....or....

If the rule says "you must run xyz part to be legal" is that a spec or not? Can you deviate from that spec or not?

So basically, the fight is about allowing people to use easier to find parts instead of 50 year old cast iron.

What if the rule said factory intake and carb? Well then the only difference between a crate motor and a traditional stocker would be the heads. THAT'S IT!
And if you can't find 50 year old heads, you ain't gonna find 50 year old intakes and carbs any easier!
Wife looked up the coyote crate motor yesterday on amazon, $17,000. I said WHAT??? that can't be right, must include electronics etc but she already had switched so I never got to read it.
Would you guys feel better if crate motors cost $17,000 and you couldn't build it yourself? Then the game is again set for the richer ones?

Re: Crate Motor Class
 

NHRA should adopt the IHRA Classes.
Did not have any problem creating a class for the COPO Manufacturers built race cars or ProMod for that matter?