Re: Factory experimental
 

The named racers who are going to be at Pomona are all very experienced, at least the one's whose names are familiar to me, anyway. I seriously doubt they're gonna show their arses first time out. (maybe a little butt-crack) Or, would they?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Ken,
100% agreed. I predicted Indy will be the true arrival date.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I have to agree with Bruce. I have only been going to a couple of races a year recently so I have'nt been worried about how fast I needed to go. My plans were to step up my program and get back into the lions den with the upper class guys (AA, A/SA ) and even the top stock class. Now; I believe I will save my money and watch to see what happens with these cars. Separate class is the only fair thing to do until these cars have shown what their true potential is!

I dont like bringing a knife to a gun fight!

ps I still like the cars and want to see them run!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce -- First of all I hope you don't think this is a personal attack on you . Second -- what if I'm wrong -- no shucks about it -- it always catches up -- its never too late to fix a problem .
As for the Factory Experimental class -- I'm sure you understand that has no chance whatsoever in becoming a class . No , I'm not being NHRA stubborn -- just realistic .

As for disecting bsa633's post my point was and still is that we should stick to real facts --not maybe's .And I surely believe he is entitled to his opinion -- whatever that may be .

Re: Factory experimental
 

Where is FX in the rule book? This sounds like grade school, a lot of crying before anybody is hurt.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Just my opinion, but the "sky is not falling". Lets just wait and see how fast they really are! As somebody said, they still have got to hook'em and drive'em, at the finish line ! Two more weeks , Time will tell, John Lang

Re: Factory experimental
 

There were 2 of them at Fontana Jan. 2nd and 3rd. John Calvert had one and I don't know who was driving the other. Neither one of them could hook up in first or second. That might have been before they went to Mandellas.

Re: Factory experimental
 

And still went 10.20's

Re: Factory experimental
 

John,
This thread has been about bringing back FX classes.
John,
You want to see people get hurt first?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Yeah..well..there are not alot of facts...a little more "maybe's"...10.2's at Fontana..a track that is .2 slow..not hooking up at all..and only a few know in what trim ."Factory"?..I like new cars coming in..But with cars like these i really think they need to be in thier own class until we know more..the F.I and carb cars are close these days...they were not in the past when you could run way under the index with one of those LT1's even without taking the engine apart more than to do a Cam change and computer works.. These C.J's are way more "grey area" than those when it comes to figure this out..and the system will take way too long time to get it right with racers now knowing how to work it!
With all this said..Qudos to Ford!!

p.s. Does this open for Hemi Darts and Barracudas in Stock down the road?

Re: Factory experimental
 

Re: Factory experimental
 

It looks to me like the ONLY problem with this whole MESS is: "Are these engines correctly "factored" by NHRA?", so that there's not another debacle that takes YEARS for the AHFS to resolve, like it did with the LS-1's.

That was an inexcusable, totally preventable, (and deliberate, I think), faux pas on NHRA's part, and could (and probably will) happen again with these Cobra Jets. It's the one thing that NHRA can "do" for these manufacturers when they (NHRA) want to give them a pat on the back. Unfortunately, it invariably comes at great expense to the rank-and-file....

Having said that, and with that scenario fresh in mind, I don't understand why anyone would think it necessary to create a new class ("F/X") for these cars when they will fit so very well in existing Super Stock classes.

That's what they did in '68 with the then-new Cobra Jets, when they won there... Only the 'cammers were put into F/X (oh, and Bil Hoeffer's Weber-carbed 289.)

I think that the only real problem that these cars are going to create will come about if they're severely under-factored, (DUH....) but of course, that would also be a problem if they were put into Super Stock, too. But, the type of performances that Bruce has alleged they can produce wouldn't be so overtly out-of-line in Super Stock, as they are almost guaranteed to be in Stock.

If they are correctly "factored" (and I have my doubts), then they should be fine in Stock; if not, make them Super Stockers; there are lots of cars in that Eliminator that will not be intimidated by the blowers and 4-valve technology they possess. They are, in fact, small motors, after all... just GOOD ones!

The problem is, of course, getting it right the first time... you don't want to have to move a car out of one Eliminator, into another, after it's originally been classified. That would be unprecented, and undoubtedly wouldn't happen. The Cobra Jets (and their competitiors) are going to have to live with wherever they are put, initially, it would seem. Get it right, NHRA!

I'm delighted to see both them and the Dodges in the fray. I think it's a wonderful opportunity to give Sportsman racing some badly needed media exposure; I just hope it doesn't come at the expense of long-established racers' programs that have been many years and many dollars in the making.

We'll know a lot more in about two week.... :)

Thanks for listening.

Re: Factory experimental
 

and still went 10.20"s

Unless I got lucky; I was just kidding!!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bill,
You're right. The Horsepower rating is the real problem. I think Evan agrees the Horsepower is soft.

Re: Factory experimental
 

If NHRA or IHRA wanted to, they could take one to a chassis dyno and see what they make at the tires. The LT1 and LS1 cars made more at the rear tires than the factory flywheel ratings. Should be off about 15% with a stick car. My everyday driver is an untouched '98 WS6 (ram air) LS1 automatic Trans Am convert. It makes 326 at the tires. A decent stick version makes closer to 340. What are they finally factored at now?? Even if they started off with the rwhp numbers, it would surely be closer than what Ford (or any mfgr) rates them.

Won't make everybody happy, but would be closer than advertised hp for sure. Could save a year or more with the AHFS handling it. Might cost somebody an hour's worth of time. You would want an untouched vehicle, not one that could have been de-tuned by the mfgr or racer before be presented for testing. NASCAR uses a Dynojet just like mine for spot testing cup cars after races to keep the different brands competitive with each other. Simplest thing it the world to do. The numbers can't be skewed by the operator as with many other brands.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Maybe nhra decided to drop them into Stock instead of coming out with a new F/X class because....well...mopar is now owned by fiat and basically broke and gm ain't far behind. The camaro was delayed because of an interior part couldn't be supplied because the supplier went bankrupt. When will the camaro be out...WILL it be out...will gm and mopar spend on dragracing when the braindeads in congress could get wind of it?

Let it run and then bitch...how can everyone be so upset when it hasn't even been in competition yet.






Oh yeah, it's a damn ford!

Re: Factory experimental
 

This isn't about a specific OEM - it's about a fair classification process. Sure some combinations will come up soft but I can't remember one being as far off as this car. Nothing personal at all. These cars may have some problems in the beginning, but you have to look at the caliber of people who are working on them. Then you know the best performance is right around the corner. John can straighten out anything with wheels. Let's watch.

Re: Factory experimental
 

"Let's watch. "

That's what I and others have been saying all along.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce -- We finally agree on something -- "Let's Watch" . You're absolutely right about the caliber of people working on these cars -- smart people with all the right resources .Stock is no longer for the "Faint of Heart" and certainly not for the "Backyard Sportsman" as it was when we started -- they can compete just not at this high level . Things have changed as we go into '09 -- hopefully for the better !

Re: Factory experimental
 

So 27 pages in it comes down to the fact that Stock is no longer for the "faint of heart" and the "back-
yard sportsman" which I guess translates to if you want to run AA to C if you dont have $$$$ coming
out of your *** go home little boy and let the real men play.Before the Mustang it was heading in that direction already,this accelerates the situation.
Just an observation from one of the unwashed masses.

Ed F.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Ed -- You left out the part where you and your little low buck car with "six in a row" can still win the eliminator .That fact alone should make you happy ! ! !

Re: Factory experimental
 

Guys,
I am not suggesting that we should sit on our hands and watch the hammer drop.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Jack;
It's not about me It's about the eliminator in general and how some selfish racers,a major car company and the
upper management of an organization who lives off the contributions of it's members and sponsors are
running down what we love to do.

Ed

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bad Jack!

Re: Factory experimental
 

Ed -- Its really about progress ......even your own car company ( AMC ) were involved in this type of activity in the sixties and seventies -- without this factory involvement were would we be ? Like the man said yesterday -- "Change" ..........seems you're not ready for it .

Re: Factory experimental
 

Gee Billy -- I said the words low buck and six in a row in the same sentence and the hairs on the back of your neck are standing straight.......................easy big fella ! ! !

Re: Factory experimental
 

Take your meds and go to bed Jack.

Re: Factory experimental
 

I don't blame the racers that are concerned about these cars. I would be too. Bruce mentioned in his first post I believe that these cars don't even have VINs. Kinda funky for a car with no VIN to be able to compete in stock, kinda like an oxymoron if you will. And I do see the importance of the factories getting involved again.

But here is a novel idea for the guys that are concerned. Band together and build one of these cars, and build it to fly everywhere you take it. Set the record with it. Then, after you feel the AHFS has caught up to it, sell it.

You would most likely get most of your money back (what would the Nat'l record holder in AA/S be worth?), you will have evened the playing field so the older cars can compete, and most of all, you will have beaten FoMoCo at their own game. At next year's SEMA show you could really ham it up in front of the Factory Ford guys :)

Re: Factory experimental
 

Jack you're a master of straying from the story.First off AMC never tried to sneak the SS cars into stock.
The new Mustangs actually are rated higher than the older cars.Show me an AMC who had a hp discreptancy as wide as the new Mustangs.All 68-69 390s were 315hp.All 70 390s were 325 except for the Machine that got 15 more.The big 3 were masters at fudging hp figures.
All i'm saying is that if these cars are allowed in Stock AND they are capable of mid 9s at about 140
it will take years to get them adjusted correctly,as you know a crafty drag racer can hide the true potential of their combo.Look at the #s some of the Top/Jr Stock cars run.It's right in NHRAs face and nothing is done about it.End of communication,beam me up.

Ed

Re: Factory experimental
 

Is the motor in the new cobra jet the same motor in the Shelby GT 500? Are the specs the same? The Shelby has a rating of 500hp and the cobra jet is 425. If this is the case how is this not cheating on Fords part. I was at my son's hockey practice last night and one of his teamate's father is an engineer at Ford. I jokingly asked him if he could get me one of the new cobra jets. He said "What is a cobra jet?"
I told him what it was and said it was built at Rousch and had the same motor as the GT 500 but was rated at 425 instead of 500. His comment was " Isn't that cheating"? I don't see any specs on the Shelby motor, maybe someone familiar with them could comment.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

Talk about 28 pages of "nothing". Nothing but "what if, maybe, well it can, why can't they, the skys falling".

Re: Factory experimental
 

The CJ has much smaller cams, a full point less compression and smaller throttle body.

Re: Factory experimental
 

Comparing the Cobra jet motor to the 510hp 281cu.in. motor goes like this. The 510 hp. motor has a.060 larger lift cam. Compression is about the same,the cobra jet has 49 more cubic inches, they both have 62mm twin bore sizes, both are intercooled and the cobra jet has larger valves and is a 4 valve head compared to a 3 valve head in the 510hp motor. Am I missing something here? With 49 more cubic inches and a lot more valve area it looks to me like the cobra jet motor should make substantially more power than the 510 hp motor. The supercharged motor should like the extra valve area.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

The Cobra Jet engine is built at the same place as the Shelby engine but built to DIFFERENT specs. They are both 330 cu. in., the CJ at 425 hp and Shelby at 500 hp. No different than the 454/325 like in Grossi’s GT/AA car and the 454/425 in Stinnett’s car.
Most of the guys on this forum have never and will never run in a class with or against one of these Mustangs so this thread resembles the fuel injected cars in stock discussion on classracer a few years ago.
For the first time in decades Ford has become involved in NHRA Sportsmen competition. I think Brian Wolfe and the good folks at Ford Racing should be commended for their efforts. Why don’t we see how this plays out before the internet crowd tries to crucify it.

Re: Factory experimental
 

MPR I also commend ford for getting involved in racing again. I think most of us only want to see these cars with the proper hp rating on them.

Greg

Re: Factory experimental
 

MPR,
Are you running in the AA or A classes? I will attempt to in just a few short weeks.

I know it's hard for someone to understand this issue, especially if they do not own an AA car, but the 2008 Cobra Jet has the very real potential to seriously reduce the value of the older cars that are currently running in these classes. We're talking about more than a million dollars down the drain. Some racers have over $100,000.00 invested in their cars. Sure, we know they we'll never get it all back when they sell them but the 2008 CJs will seriously deminish the value of these cars even further.

What seems to be the problem with a new Factory Experimental Class? Many racers said nhra would never bring back the AA and classes and they did. Vet these cars in Factory Experimental and then move them to AA if they don't have the punch that Ford and some racers say they have. What's wrong with that? Why the need to go out and beat up on a bunch of older cars that have older technology? Competition is good, however, selfishness is ugly no matter how you look at it. The CJs will stay in AA or A after they make the first pass in those classes. That is what the Roush and Ford guys want. Good luck to everyone involved after that.

Re: Factory experimental
 

So they should just SHUT UP right?..what a stupid comment! ofcourse they never will run that class after this...

Re: Factory experimental
 

Bruce,
Run a different class ... case resolved ...

Re: Factory experimental
 

the thing about some of these high HP big block is that they are pretty much AA combos, or damn near 3700lbs in A. Now if you would like to come show me where to put that much lead in a 69 corvette, be my guest

Re: Factory experimental
 

And they never would have anyway. So I have to agree with Mike. Of all the guys whining on here how many have a car that will have to race a CJ heads up?? Doesn't it strike you as odd that the guys that have the fast AA/A/B stockers aren't on here crying. They're propbably in the garage working. Why don't you give it a rest until the car makes at least 1 pass in competition.

Jim MCBean