Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Now that Bill's gone we can all admit now that we all agreed with him and that rule was the worst enhancement ever perpetrated on the drag racing community,surpassing the rule to stop the dreaded practice of ,dare I say it,deep staging.
Please line up to the right to pick up your bidding pallet for the upcoming auction of the Brooklyn Bridge.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

There is another section on this Forum that REQUIRES the person have a Permanent Number and be racing. So why are you trying to make policy for this section ??

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Because it lends a bit more credibility to a subject if the person uses his real name and
also if he is actually affected by any potential rule changes discussed here.And there is no direct connection between this rule being implimented in S/SS class racing and regular bracket racing.
Anywhere else if an outsider (and Mr Bill for all intents and purposes,in addition to you yourself,are outsiders to S/SS class racing)harped on about a subject they had no stake in would be ignored.You two seem to have a small audience here because a minority of racers see this as another way to supposedly
"level the playing field".That term was used back a few years ago during the first
discussion about the AHFS.Well it didn't go anywhere then and it won't go anywhere now.
"Get a life" is the appropriate saying to end this discussion.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

The only one trying to make policy is Bill.He's been told 100 different ways the rule,even
if some don't think it's fair,will stand as is.But will Bill put a lid on it?????Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo.........
There has to be a name for an affliction like that,but I'm too polite to put a name to it.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I'm not sure who's more obsessed with this topic, Bill or Ed ... :D


-Toby

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Actually I find it quite amusing.Once I get the engine back in the car and some means of support my amusement level will return to normal.:>):>)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You and Bill apparently don't get the jist of my post.
More simple: Anybody with enough blood flowing through their veins to their fingertips can post on this board. They don't have to be even remotely associated with a race team in any form or fashion. There are no requirements for names, no evidence of participation in a S/SS, nothing. As I stated, a post could be made by a 5 year old.
The forum here invites and accepts non racers. That is clear, that is acceptable to most including myself. However, based on the lack of credentials of say the 5 year old, and maybe an entire group of 5 year olds, should that group impact what actual racers must adhere too?
They have no skin in the game. Rebel rouser's sometimes chide just for the fun of it. Bill Dedman has already commented that he will never again participate in S/SS racing. Obviously he has no skin in this game and stands to gain nothing one way or the other. The fact he hopes this issue will transcend into his bracket class has no bearing on S/SS racing for the red light rule (whatever it may be) would not necessarily be applied to all forms of drag racing.
I'm wondering if Bill thought it was unfair that deep staging was once allowed? Or maybe he believes the disallowing of deep staging is unfair?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Please Jeff.Don't wind him up again.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff,
You don't?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Handicap racing is Handicap racing......from Comp on down....No matter if it's A/D or a T/SA Gremlin !
And you quit racing....where is the "skin" ???

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

The only person that enjoys threads like this are the site owner. It drives page views which then means he can charge more for advertising. Keep on firing away, and no I only read page one and 25.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Oh well..........

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I haven't quit. If you want to pay for the parts I've been buying for the AMX since I took it to the engine and chassis shop, I'll say I've quit.
Quitting and waiting for delivery are two different things. I've got more skin in the game than you. That I'm sure of.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Somewhere in the deep bowels of this thread I state I was not happy with the loss of deep staging. As long as one does not knock off the stagging beam it should be their decision on how to start the race. Deep, shallow or in between, racers decision.
I'm just wondering why Bill doesn't think this is fair also?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Jeff, I said I was done with this thread, but deep staging is another topic.

The (in MY opinion) blatantly unfair red light rule, that penalizes the first car to leave, UNIVERSALLY, in Class racing AND Bracket racing) is the only rule-related topic I have ever posted my opinion on, because it's the only controversial topic of that type I have any experience with.

Despite my having started drag racing in 1955, having been an NHRA Area Tech advisor at the pleasure of Dale Ham (Div.. IV Division Director [now retired],from 1960, 'til I moved to Iowa in 1964,] and despite having been the Stocker tech guy at the Carlisle, AR strip from 1960-'64, the Little Rock, Arkansas NHRA strip, from 1960-'64, the Stocker tech guy at the Des Moines Dragway, from 1965 'til it closed in 1968, despite having had several drag racing-related tech articles published in Super Stock and DRAG ILLUSTRATED during the period of time 1983 'til the late '80s, and an article or two in National Dragster (points race (Fremont) reports, and despite a long stint as Moderator of the Prodgy Drag Racing BB, and despite, in the 1950s and 1960s, campaigning several NHRA-classed Gas Coupes, and a Class-Legal H/SA car from 1965 'til 1970, or so, you seem to think that I am a know-nothing and have no right to post my opinion on this board just because I do not currrently campaign a Class-legal car.

And defifntely YES, this bizarro rule affects ME every time I take a car down the drag strip if I am the first to leave (I have a bracket car.) If it didn't, you probably wouldn't have had to endure all this outrage.

Well I don't know it all (FOR SURE!,) but, having sent a lot of years with an NHRA rule book in my hand, I recognize an unfair and unnecessary rule when I see one. That's the reason I run my cyber-mouth about this red light business. I didn't figure it out on my own... I'm not that smart. I had to have it explained to me over a period of time, but I finally GOT IT.

Anybody who thinks a first red light rule, in a race wherein one of the cars has NO CHOICE but to leave first, can explain to me what is fair about that, when there is an easily-implemented alternative that could make it fair for EVERYBODY, is welcome to do so...

There's just no reason to give free rides to cars that have "red light jeopardy immunity" just because they were the second to leave, and the firrst guy bulbed. When do they get their chance????

It's just unconscionable...

As rtegards Deep Staging I will say this: If someone can describe a reason how deep staging is unfair to any competitor, I would certainly entertain argumements regarding why it should be outlawed.

OR, if there were legitimate reasons someone could prove that is is an impairmentnt to the actual racing process... not just a "we don't like it," THAT would be a logicaL reason to discuss it.

Maybe someone could prove that is takes too long to get staged, that way.... I dunno.

But at this point, I don't have an opinion, since I don't now enough about it.

So, now you know why I don't run my mouth about THAT issue. Eminently unqualified.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I am really starting to miss Art...................

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Thanks Jeff,you just couldn't leave well enough alone.Here goes 75 more pages of whale blubber.
Kenny,need any help with the paperwork for all the new sponsors coming on board?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I'm starting to miss logical, informative, point , counter- point discussions .....

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Exactly. It`s been a while since we`ve heard about the unfair adavantage the "Pro Sportsman" racers have!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

.................................................. ...........................

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Lmao!

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Ed F.,
What do you call it when you fail to answer simple. direct, sometimes yes-or-no question that relates to the thread subject?

Cowardice? That would be good for a start.

Obfuscation?

Nope'; too many syllables for your "superior," Joisey edumucation...

Rudeness?

Nope that isn't even in your limited vocabulary...

Ignorance? Yep... now, we/re getting somewhere!!!

Psyco-babble that is ego-driven?

Maybe, but it's got more facets than that...

Just plain don't know the answer, and trying desperately to defray attention from that faact, , so that maybe, just MAYBE, no one will notice!!! :)

The burning question, one last time:

How is a rule that treats 2 competitors differently a fair one?

Competitor 1 gets red light jeopardy EVERY time he faces the tree when running a quicker car.

Competitor 2 only faces it when his compettiton in the slower car, goes green.

Tell me, Ed F., what is the reason that anyone could think that's equal treatment under the rules? And, if it's equal not treatment (it's not) what makes it "fair" and not worthy of changing.

I don't expect you to answer this because, that's what you do; you write pages of insults and "cute" put-downs in hopes that no one will notice that you couldn't/wouldn't answer the question, BECAUSE to answer it, would reveal that you have NEVER had a real understanding of the problem at hand.

You're position is intellectually bankrupt.

Now, prove me wrong and answer the 2-part question. Please... :)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

You've convinced me that you're totally nuts.This has to be an act.Bill,which one are you??

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Doctor Fernandez,
This thought just came into my head today.
What if Doctor Dedman succeeded with getting this rule change?
Would you be pi$$ed at him? Extremely pi$$ed?
If so, why?
Just curious about your thought process . I know about the guys with the AA, A, B cars

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Mark,I'll discuss that with you at Englishtown.Okee dokey?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Most don't care one way or the other. But, he ain't gonna get it done here.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I try to stay out of this but I can't.
Not only do I think a first red light loss is unfair, but I think (off subject here) not allowing deep staging is not fair. Forces the slower car to leave sooner (on the tree) than the faster car. Why should'n they both get to leave at, reasonably, the same time (adjusted by tire size and pressure). Why should the slower car have to shoot at the bulls eye from further back behind the line? Is that fair?
I'm done. For now.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Nothing is fair in life or racing ..... deal with it ..

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

That's what I'm trying to do, although I realize this is not the place that will get anything done.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Bobby, Someone asked us , a few weeks back , why S/SS racers can't get together.
It seems obvious to me.
Most seem to only be concerned about rules and procedures that will benefit THEM, or ones that take away something that could help someone else win a round or two, .......rather than what's good for the sport in general.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I've been reluctant to join in, but what the hey.....in looking over 20 years of tickets, and I almost always go first, the worst red light has never impacted me, although I do agree it would be more fair in my personal opinion.....I really don't care one way or the other....I did see where Roy Hill benefited by the current rules (twice I think at Houston) so it does happen

Anyway, for those who are irritated by any post (regardless of agenda) why read it and continue responding?....just skip over and let it go.....opinions and posts are the "juice" that makes this site worth opening (has the old Stock Super Stock Forum gone away? I was an early paying member but the last I looked it was dead)

Finally, whether posts like the red light rule can be changed by dialogue on this site: some posters "caution" that NHRA monitors our views, and I do know that the great muffler debate was impacted by the ferocity of negative posts on the then multiple racers sites.....I sat in with a dozen racers at Earlville Raceway in a round table when the muffler thing was going the wrong way, Rob Park was there, Len Imbrogno, Bill Rink, myself, Ron Taylor, Kevin Helms, Randy & Mike Mans, Leighton Schmidt and Bob Frey....the dialogue was hot and heavy, and that session along with many petitions helped sway the momentum...later Imbrogno indicated to me that the messages boards (at that time) gave NHRA a pause to reconsider and offer round tables and discussion groups....if there were any other round table discussions, I'm not aware of them

Believe me, Imbrogno, Parks and Frey got a real earful and a real sense of the passion on that issue (chairs were knocked over, voices raised and Mr Rink was a color of red that I've not seen since....and it wasn't sunburn!....message boards opened the door to that happening

So don't just pooh pooh racers having a place to have their opinions heard.....send letters and e-mails? Singular correspondence like that just gets trashed...I've sent Glendora 7 letters since 1997, never got a response.

How about that (gee that feels better)

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

I'm the one who raises logical, realistic pertinent, yet simple questions for YOU about the thread's subject.

YOU are the one who steadfastly refuses to answer ANY of them, as a matter of course, ostensibly (look it up) as a defense against revealing that you fail to understand ANY of this.... or, you just can't handle THE TRUTH,

Maybe both.

This last post of yours, was another case of more of the same.

There's nothing wrong with MY thinking; YOU are the one who (0r won't) can't face facts.

WHY didn't you answer the question(s)??????

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Some things can't be made fair.... some things can.

If we don't even attempt to change the unfair things that CAN be changed, they will always stay unfair,

Then we gave to live with it for the rest of our lives.

This unfair rule was never enacted as the result of any desire to give anyone an advantage. But it did, and continues to, to this day.

I don't see any reason to put up with it. Do you?

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Watch out Bill,they're coming for you.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Once again, Ed you failed to answer the question...

How's your reading comprehension???


That's okay; I understand... you can't answer a question that will blow your whole rationale.... whatever that is...

And, quit putting pictures of your family on here.... I'm sure they don't appreciate the connection....

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

ed thats your family? you lied to me again there not from brooklyn they are bottom feeders from the east river.

bill have you ever race heads up? like the pros. the first guy to leave that red lights LOOSES!!!!!! end of story............... no different than bracket racing . i will oppose this proposed rule change untill im dead.


P.S. 28 pages of pure crap!!!!!! this has been entertaining to say the least!!! keep up the good work guys.............................................. ........

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

jimi, thats partly correct. A heads up race, both car can have a negative reaction time. Its just that the system just shows the worst light as red in this case it did happen first and the oppenent automatically gets a green light. A first or worst ruling. Your logic helps support Dedman's argument in my thinking.

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Sounds like some sort of accent.......

Hows come he "LOOSES" dat race...

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Rich, I guess so . I see and hear it everyday, everywhere.
Apparently, in that language, losing is pronounced loosing, lose is spelled loose , whining is whinning ,and too is shortened to "to".
Not sure what that dialect is....

Re: worst red light debate, again!
 

Are you too dazed and confused by the vagaries of this subject to realize that the basic difference in the two scenarios you propose, one "heads up racing" and one "handicap racing," wherein the FIRST CAR to have a chance to red light, is ALWAYS the SLOWER CAR?

Think about that for just a moment, please.

If he red lights, the second car to leave NEVER gets a chance to red light.

Why should anyone have that advantage? You can't write advantages into the rule book; where would it end???? LOL!

That never happens in a heads up race, because the two cars have an EQUAL chance to red light when the light goes green. Slow car or fast, they both have an equal chance in heads-up racing.

All this worse red light rule would do is give BOTH cars each, their EQUAL chance to red light, JUST LIKE IT IS AN A HEADS-UP RACE. The handdicap forces one car to leave first, and giving the second car to leave a free ride, with NO red-light jeopardy if the first car to leave bulbs, is anything BUT a fair shake for both cars. In the interest of fairness to everybody, that rule needs to be changed.

THAT is the end of the story.