Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Do any of you guys think it would be worth the time to send Scott Gardner a set of our thoughts?

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

I loved modified back in the day and when I grew up that is what I wanted to race,but I been around this my whole life and I know what it cost and now of what it cost back in the day,everything you put out there is correct,and if start allowing vac.pumps,ext.oil pumps,anything besides the spec head,then it is useless to even do it ,just go ahead and build ?/SM and run in comp.
Even with these restrictions in all honesty it still would not be cheap,I would say it would cost somewhere between stock/super stock,I say more than lower class stocker,about even w/higher classed stocker,less than higher classed ss or ss/mod about even w/lower classed ss'er, but changes would not be coming up every year if rules were left alone.

I would say that if modified had survived today as it was, it would cost as much or more than comp,
comp has cic,modified had nothing to keep it in check. In some aspects mod still lives,some in SS,some in comp, SS/?M is pretty much ?/MP car ?/SM is close to ?/Gas
?/A in comp is close to altered classes were in mod. dragster classes are in comp.along with econo classes
Could anyone comment on engine/cylinder heads$in 70's,my Dad always told me when welded heads,came about is when cost really started going wild.
He told me some prices of short block's,welded heads in early 70's that some guys were getting,just curious to hear others figures.

Mike Taylor 3601

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Mike, thanks. If the ONLY difference is the cylinder head, then cost is only going to be between $10,000, and $20,000 dollars different. What ruined econo altered, econo dragster, etc. was they ALLOWED them to break the rules, and it is what it is today. Anything but econo. Brodix should have the final say on the heads. PERIOD. NEVER LET IT BE ANY OTHER WAY!. You still would have a lot of ingenuity in the rest. Clutches alone would save you thousands a year by limiting them. No sheet metal manifolds would be a plus. I don't care if you send it to Carl Foltz, you won't be able to spend more then $1,000 on one with NO EXTERNAL MODS. What's your thoughts on stud mounted rocker arms, other then Mopar? And .750 max. lift at the valve? I think it would take a lot of the cost down. And Titanium valves? I also own several sets of T&D's, and Jesel stuff for 23 degree, but think stud mounted is by far cheaper, and more challenging.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Refer to my previous post. I've even read this thread and still have no idea what the rules would be, who would build these cars, how many cars there would be, if it would be a participant-based class, a spectator-based class, what would draw sponsors to the class, ad infinitum...

If you send an e-mail saying, "Hey, we want to run old cars kinda like Modified only totally different, like a cheap version of Super Stock", nobody's going to know what you're talking about, and it would be likely to get little response more than, "OK, that's nice."

You need a BUSINESS PLAN. Until you can put together a coherent, solid program here, you're not ready to approach sanctioning bodies, tracks, promoters, or sponsors. That plan or program may go through some adjustments over time, but you need a solid starting point.

I don't say any of this to be a downer: on the contrary, I hope it motivates and focuses your efforts. Get a baseline, and write it up in an outline or rulebook format, and post it here. Refine, and then tackle the business plan end of things. Just like with any business, marketing, or sponsor deal, the person on the receiving end is primarily going to be interested in how it benefits THEM. That explanation is going to have to be more precise than "Because it's wicked cool." Ask yourself all the questions that anyone in those positions would ask you, and try to answer them.


...if you want to equalize the playing field and reduce the ability to make gains by spending money, limit both the intake and exhaust -- and I'm not talking about the cylinder heads or camshafts... think air.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

In response to Michael Beard's post. I agree. These are not rules, just an idea. If I print the rules, it will be influenced by MY thinking. I'm just trying to feel it out, and see what MOST want. When I wrote em for my track, it was simple. I had to try and include 40, or 50 local boys. This is a little different. Our old heads up website has since been cancelled, or you could observe that we were pretty explicit. I know you're trying to be helpful, but I honestly don't know the proper way to approach this, other then maybe getting Brodix to do it on their own, and that's a stretch. I truly could write up a rule, that looks professional. Then is that the rules? I doubt either NHRA, or IHRA give a damn what I think, so no, I don't actually know what I'm doing.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

As I said, you just need a baseline. Again, I've read this thread and have absolutely no idea where the class is right now except a spec head. Right now you have ideas scattered through 10 pages of this post. Consolidate everything into one post, written up in an easy-to-read outline that everyone can follow. Discuss, tweak and amend. It doesn't have to be 100% final absolute -- there will always going to be adjustments made down the road.

The Class Nationals planning thread went the same way. The idea we started out with isn't where we ended up, but we put forth a fairly solid plan and revised as we went until arriving at the final product. Even at this point, we know that there will be changes made in 2015, but we need to get the first year under our belt to have real data and make informed decisions on scheduling, classes, etc.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Ok, Here goes. CLASS: ECONO MOD
81 and older cars. No front wheel drive conversions.
9 lbs. per C.I.D.
Min. wt. 3,000 lbs.
Max. 1 750 cfm carb. Choke horn must remain. Baseplate standard 750.
Ford, Mopar, and GM only. Brodix spec head. Only mods allowed angle milling, and polishing combustion chamber. 11\32 valve min. 2.08 max. Titanium allowed.
Cast intake generally available. No external mods. Max 2" spacer.
Any piston, any rod, any crank, any ring package, any bore, any stroke.
No vac pumps, external oil pumps, belt drives, or internal billet pumps allowed.
No computers allowed.
No titanium, or carbon fiber driveline parts allowed, except carbon fiber drive shaft for safety reasons.
Max. 1 clutch disc, no smaller then 10.5 inch. No counter wts. allowed.
Max. primary tube size on header 2". No more then 2 steps on header.
Motor plates allowed.
Cool can allowed.
SpecC-12 VP fuel
Cam lift .750 max at the valve.
Stud mount rockers only, except Mopar.
14.32 max tire size.
Wheelie wheels permitted.
Max
RPM chip allowed. No other chips allowed.
Play back tach allowed.
Maximum 5 forward gears. CLUTCH MUST BE USED IN ALL 5 GEARS IN THE TRUE CONVENTIONAL MANNER.
Removable tunnel allowed.
No more then 50\50 wt transfer.
.4 pro tree only.
Cam must be in stock location, remain stock diameter for engine used.
Lifters must be stock diameter. Roller cams, and lifters allowed.
Any radiator in stock location.
Engine in stock location, plus, or minus 1"
Distributor must remain in stock location.
Crank trigger allowed.
Any head under suspicion must be sent to Brodix, and $500 fee put up for the expense of protested.
After market balancers required. Min, 8 pt cage. (up to NHRA)
1" site plug required in oil pan to inspect pump.
.Autos remove 100 lbs. Must still maintain min wt.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Those rules have to be changed to suit this , or I can't possibly sign off on them :D
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/t.../frontview.jpg

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Excellent. Question about cheaper short block might be Sight hole to observe Stock type crank and rods?(No aluminum rods,use nhra accepted rod for motor.)No Knife edge, no odd metal crank. Is this worth it?

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Dick, Joe, discuss. I'm open to anything. We had to start somewhere.Also, I see nothing wrong with that car. Allow 2 fours, and add wt.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Dick,
I agree with you on keeping cranks from getting crazy,alum rod I don't see as issue,a good high quality steel rod cost more than alum rod does,so don't see it as money issue,personally if this class existed,and I was'nt allowed alum. rod I would probaly spend $300-500 more on steel rods I would trust @RPM I would be cranking.
Randy,
Stud mounted rockers vs.shaft are toss up, if starting with nothing cost is not much different,on these engines shafts would not be expensive,first off no offsets would be need so that cost less. Shafts are easier to get on engine like we are talking about if has long valves ,stud mounted have to buy $400.00 ish rocker that has clearance for anything over 1.500 spring or clearance some that cost 250 ish then add 75ish for best arp stud,150-250 for stud girdle,you are right at shaft price.

One thing that could be possibly good ideal is limit lift @ valve to .630-.660 lift that eliminates reason for having valves over .100 longer,don't need all the extra installed height to get springs on heads that will work with bigger lifts,and that eliminates problems of getting rockers to work. If you ever have put .200-.300 longer valves in sbc w/stud rockers you know what I talking about,as rocker is higher up stud,pushrods get longer, rocker body gets closer to retainers,roller gets moved to outside tip of valve,this also happen on shafts,but all you do is get set of stands that moves rocker back toward intake,and has material added to bottom of stand so you don't need .150'' worth of shims.

Also if shafts was allowed that would be level for all three brands on valvetrains.
All rules look good to me,I would maybe add if not covered,material, bore spacing,deck height, maybe say deck has to be 9.00-9.500 that will cover sbc,mopar,and ford,or some how keep short deck exotic stuff out. I know this elimnates 8.200 (302) based windsor,but it's is probaly too short and could give advantage of lighter rotating assm to that combo over the others.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Mike, I actually agree with all your points. I spent $2,600 on a set of steel rods, and I actually think aluminum rods are easier on parts. I love shaft rockers. I just didn't want people to think this is just about me. Blocks, a very good point made. Min. Deck, say 9". Cams, name your poison. I'm game for anything. Cranks, again, whatever works for me just so we make tear down easy.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

I agree.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

We have limited the air intake to 750 cfm, and the exhaust to 2" primaries.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Why don't you use the old C/Super Mod rules from the 70's when it was introduced.
no porting, any lower end. at the time over the counter manifold. 750 carb. no big tires, etc., etc..

Bob Lasko
one of the original SS/CS or C/SM people.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Bob, I actually have applied some of the rules from the old C\SM, and SS\CS. I never ran C\SM, but ran SS\CS for years, and ran D\EM, and C\EM IHRA. We weren't going to allow any porting on the Brodix spec head, and about the only difference is the tire size. The classes are close to the same, and might be interesting. The head potential is almost identical. As of now it's just an idea, nothing more.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

The old C/SM head rules were cheaper than a set of Brodix heads. Had to be production iron heads. Stock valve stem size, only 1" below the valve seats, 1/2" back from the intake gasket surface to match the manifold. No welding or epoxy. We had more C/SM cars in class at Indy than in SS eliminator at many races today. Guys that liked to write big checks were no faster than guys with a clue what they were doing. You can hide more work in aluminium heads than iron. With the 1970s C/SM head rules there was no reason to send anything to Brodix, or anybody else, for verication.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

I am assuming this thread is just off season fantasy stuff but OK, I'll bite. You realize that any one of several Comp racers would make a mockery of this in no time. This will instantly turn into a $100,000 car class dominated by a handful of racers. How much fun do you plan to have when you get your butt kicked in the first round every week? Stock has very restrictive rules, look how cheap they are to build. So how do you intend to enforce a 'must clutch' on the shifts rule? Is a tech official going to ride along or do you have to download your GoPro after every run? Sorry to ruin your fun, please procede with your fantasy of believing there is a way to devolve racing back to the 70's.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Good job on establishing a baseline set of rules. That was something even I could understand.

Want to address Caughlin's infinite money Comp-racer issue? Refer to prior post: Restrict the air intake and exhaust. What you've done is a start, but consider what you could do that would be easily policed that would substantially mitigate the effects of people spending massive money on anything... whether it be highly modified carburetors, doctored cylinder heads, etc.

There's actually an interesting solution devised by a mad scientist racer many years ago. I did extensive computer modeling on it, and it works ridiculously well, despite (or perhaps because) it being very simple.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Michael. I'll bite. Anything that works. Jim. I doubt very much even a comp racer could fool the manufacturer with all the computer controlled design today. Get real. Super mod evolved to where it is today because of innovative racers that at that time, were tough to catch. Today, not so much. I know a guy at Brodix that said "Bring em on, we'll decide who's smarter." On the clutching every gear thingy. Let me respond. At our track, if anyone was suspected of shifting without a clutch, a protest fee was paid, then the car under protest was required to make up to 3 runs, backing up his other runs that night within .02 in the 1\8th, and .01 in the first 60' with, now hear me out, a roll cage mounted camera recording the left foot. What do you know, it worked. I still have the camera. I was going to get more detailed later. I was just throwing options out there. I think going back to actually driving a race car would be far more interesting. By the way, no one has to send their head to Brodix unless they are under protest. Surely the comp guys, ( who I have the utmost respect for) don't need to cheat to beat a bunch of redneck hillbillies. I welcome the challenge, thank you.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Also, any idiot can stand by the guard rail, and tell real easy if someone is clutching, or not. It ain't that hard. Then, protest them. By the way, the new clutchless stuff is just an overpriced 5 speed automatic. A trained monkey could drive one. By the way, we have 3 of them.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

AMEN
I must be one of the last few percenters who DOES actually clutch every gear change.

And to the guy who suggested any one of several comp racers would make a mockery of the class in no time............yeah sure , whatever pal..........get over yourselves.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Randy what is your thinking with the 1981 and earlier models? I have a 1983 Camaro that is super stock legal and I am sure there are a lot of other super stock legal cars that are either sitting or being bracket raced that the owners would have an interest in a class such as this. I may seem quite naïve but I see nothing wrong with modeling this class after the original C/SM class. As a matter of fact I used to own a rather well known former east coast C/SM car originally owned by Ed Racis which I ran in SS/CS. Before I sold it a friend of mine tried to talk me into restoring it as it was raced back in the C/SM days. When I purchased the car I was given a car magazine that had the car on the cover as well as an in-depth article which described how popular the C/SM class had become. There had to be a reason why the original C/SM class was so popular and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be seriously interested in seeing something similar done now. I would however like to use the previously mentioned car I already own, a 1983 Camaro.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Rick, I ain't against any car being in this class. I was told to get some ground rules, so I just tossed this out there. I think if cars far more aerodynamically superior carried a little wt, let em in. And I'm all for bringing back C\SM, except, C was dominated by GM, and B was dominated by Ford. And we all know why. My reasoning is, never in history have we been given the opportunity to run 3 sets of heads, from 3 manufacturers, that are almost identical. And they say they were cheaper back in the day. I can't argue that, but damn, I can buy a bare spec head for a shade over $400. That's at least reasonable.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

What I like about spec head is the parity between all three brands,I don't think there is any other way to do that as evenly as spec head would.,the heads are the best air restriction you can have,in my opinion.

If driver happens to be good enough sounds clutchless,watch tires or wheelie bars they won't lie,wheelie bars will sit still on gear changes and tires won't get mashed to rims,use clutch wheelie bars will twitch and tires will get mashed on gear changes and clutching help produce those lovely 3rd/4th gear wheelies/bounces.
Short story my Dad in 1988 went 9.14 in vega w/T-10 would loved to had on video,carried wheels through every gear,carried them about a foot high in 4th for a ways, needless to say the ol T-10 was annilated,a few passes later,he just had sold 500 automatic trans cores@$10.00 each,,that paid for a brand new 4spd Liberty equalizer,so I told everyone I figured a Liberty was 500 times better than a automatic,I would get this weird stare from them trying to figure out how I come up w/those statistics,then I would tell them about selling 500 autos to get 1 liberty.
Mike Taylor 3601

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Mike, the spec head is the deal. And maybe I'm taking this wrong, but if I were a comp guy, looking at this class, and someone was already telling all interested, that the comp guys will come in there and cheat you to death, I'd be more then a little offended. What part of no, zero, nada mods to the heads other then polishing the combustion chamber, and angle milling would they not understand? ANY other mod would be considered cheating. Tell me where there is a grey area. I would take a finished head, let everyone gawk at it, send it in, let Brodix examine it, then say try fooling them now boys.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Randy SPec head IS the answer. Shaft rockers ok and level field. Al rods OK if costs same as Steel but open to either. Like the access hole in pan. Limiting cost of exotic crank prep is thought. Could small journal cranks etc be detected or cared about?
Is trans brake open for auto cars? Air Shifter for 1 -2 only? I raced 30 years with foot brake but might be stick advantage on Pro tree according to TOP/SS guys we had.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Dick, I ain't overly concerned about let's say, a honda journal versus a small journal. I've ran both, and if that beats you, you're real close to kicking their ***. We could use the sight plug to keep out the ultra trick cranks, such as journal drilled, and or knife edging. The rest is miniscule. And rings, to be honest with you, without the pump, those $1,300 dollar rings lose a lot of their appeal. Now I know some will say I'm wrong, and I may be, but I will let all know upfront, I'll probably run a 2 ring piston, with a gapless 0.043. But, that's just me. Rods, I have built a tad more power with steel rods, but then again, I will chose a GRP, or MGP rod, because I like them better. The sight hole is the way to go. I just want tear down to be a breeze, not a pain in the butt. I am open for ANY suggestions. Trans brake. Do allow. They can cut 4 0's with them then, just like us, with the pro brake.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Just as a point of reference, on the clutches, what is quicker is dependent on the total combination. We've ran sprung center buttons, solid buttons, sprung center rag, solid rag, cintered iron, aluminum hats, steel hats, aluminum flywheels, light wt. aluminum flywheels, steel flywheels, heavy steel flywheels, and when clutching every gear, you would not believe which combo is quite a bit quicker.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Laughing, and would you like to share which is faster..... Ha ha... No I do not expect you to do that. We all have a learning curve and I appreciate you have a great deal of experience. My fun has been auto but still limited and small stuff DOES make big differences.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

I actually would Dick, in private. Most will figure it out anyway, or already have. You have to understand, since 1971 we have ran at our hick track with a stick against some of the best in our area. You learn real quick, you better change things weekly, or you're going to run just like you did last week. It was never a bracket track, NEVER. Ha!

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Also, to ALL fellow racers. I ain't no expert, and hope I don't come across that way. You guys who run S or SS, or comp on a national, or divisional level consistently, have way more real world experience then I.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

42,000 VIEWS LATER and the original poster put his thread up for adoption. :confused:

And RANDY , DO TELL........in private of course:D
My PM door is always unlocked.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Ya, I and others pretty well ruined the thread, but I didn't actually start the ruination. I think the old vettes brought out the best, or worse in us. Back on topic. I hope 50 60's vettes show up if this ever gets off the ground. My personal favorite is a 61, or 62.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Randy I may have missed it but if you allow automatics with trans brakes are you going to allow them to use a low side rev limiter? I know superclass cars with 8 & 9" converters don't use them but I'm not sure how well it would work with 7" converters. What about air/electric shifters?

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

It is really up to what auto guys want. I don't see any unfair advantage to it, including the rev limiter. Someone that knows more about it, such as yourself, needs to make the case. I'm open to anything that brings cars, and fans in. Ha! Here we are talking like it's a done deal, and I ain't heard a word from NHRA.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Randy...thanks for your input...and the years with a similar concept at your local track.
You and Dick...stay with this...and narrow down the rules...and get them set. The only
reason I said Stick-only...is to make it a racer's class...ya gotta "row" to win! EVERY-
THING out there is automatic anyhow...Trans-brakes...air/electric shifters...that takes
away from SIMPLE...

My vote is for spec-head...single-4bbl....STUD rockers...and .700 max lift...I'm no
expert in all this stuff...(still learning)...but think that .750 lift means you HAVE to run
shaft rockers on some engines...aren't there problems with studs at higher lifts? Stud
is SIMPLE.....IMHO......

I'm ok on 10.5 rubber...the tires today are so much better than 30-40 years ago...
If you got to compromise on this....maybe allow 11.5??? BUT I can't see hangin'
12 or 13" rubber on the backs of these cars....NOT simple....

Wish I had the time...(and $$$)...to build one...but will be there at the fence to watch....

Merry Christmas to all....and LET'S DO THIS!!!!!

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

If it comes to fruition. IF THAT IS. I see a class, with liberal body\chassis rules, sticks, and autos, any slick up to 14 32's, shaft rockers, .700 lift area, single disc clutch, trans brake, spec heads, etc. Just what I'm hearing through PM's. But your ideas are very close to others. I personally, will run the smallest tire I can hook. But that's just me. If someone wants to run another tire lots bigger. Knock themselves out. It may leave a little quicker, but you have to pull it for another 4 gears. And that is unwarranted in a low HP motor.

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Just thought this was the right Christmas card for this thread. Hopefully, I can have a real car photo of my baby by this time next year

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/q...christmas2.jpg

Wade Mahaffey
58 Corvette RACEtoration is back on line

Re: OLD Modified Corvettes
 

Thanks Wade, that is THE coooooolest card ever!