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-   -   worst red light debate, again! (https://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=32995)

Rich Biebel 05-05-2011 02:32 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Mark.....It's like the UN where I live anymore. I feel like a foreigner....I speak perfect English.....and can spell reasonably well....



Bill Dedman you have basically taken up the cause that was once championed by Steve Taylor......I used to think like a lot of guys and that was leave well enough alone on this issue.....but I agree it should be changed to WORST redlight, not first.....In all the years I've raced I can't really recall a race where we both redlit.....and I was the faster car in many races and benefitted from opponents redlights. It usually distracted me and I was late, not red.......Fair is fair and it makes sense. I don't race a Stocker anymore so my opinon doesn't count though...same as yours...LOL

Bimbo Jones 05-05-2011 03:07 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Most racers fight anything to do with changes, not that is has anything to do with right or wrong. NHRA didn't bat an eye though at changing the Xmas tree at the 4-wide nationals and then brought it to Houston and beyond. The darn thing looks like the robot out of the movie "Short Curcuit" staring Ally Sheedy and does't display well for the TV viewer. A couple of years back at Bristol they ran TF against FC, and I bet if they had continued that format I bet we would have seen a WRL rule put into effect there, because the Pros will not tollerate their apponent having any kind of advantage if they can help it. "Number five is alive"

Tony Janes 05-05-2011 03:34 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
NHRA puts the races on, so that is why we will never see a double red light rule. NHRA is not interested.

Jeff Lee 05-05-2011 05:19 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimbo Jones (Post 256810)
jimi, thats partly correct. A heads up race, both car can have a negative reaction time. Its just that the system just shows the worst light as red in this case it did happen first and the oppenent automatically gets a green light. A first or worst ruling. Your logic helps support Dedman's argument in my thinking.
I'm not sure if I'm reading this right but it appears you are stating in a heads up race with double red light then the worst offender looses, not the first. Is that what your saying? And what track is that system in place because that's not the rule I know. It's FIRST red light loses, not worst red light loses.

Jeff Lee 05-05-2011 05:23 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Biebel (Post 256842)
Mark.....It's like the UN where I live anymore. I feel like a foreigner....I speak perfect English.....and can spell reasonably well....



Bill Dedman you have basically taken up the cause that was once championed by Steve Taylor......I used to think like a lot of guys and that was leave well enough alone on this issue.....but I agree it should be changed to WORST redlight, not first.....In all the years I've raced I can't really recall a race where we both redlit.....and I was the faster car in many races and benefitted from opponents redlights. It usually distracted me and I was late, not red.......Fair is fair and it makes sense. I don't race a Stocker anymore so my opinon doesn't count though...same as yours...LOL
I raced Aaron (RIP) two races in a row in 2005(?) at the Arizona Nationals followed by the D7-1 the following weekend. Both times I was the faster car. Both times he red lit first, I red lit second. His red light by a little, mine by a lot. The distraction of an opponents red light sometimes has the opposite affect on my as I seem to side step the clutch at that point. Then again, a red light was maybe in my cards mo matter what the other lane did; we'll never know. I know this, Aaron was mad the first time and furious the second time!

SStockDart 05-05-2011 05:53 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
If both racers red light, why not disqualify both of them. If both drivers red light, and both hit the wall, the one with the worst damage loses. If both red light and one hits the wall and one crosses the center line, the one who doesn't cross the finish line wins. If you have a bye run and red light, hit the wall, and cross the center line........who wins then.... If you have a bye run and hit the wall, cross the centerline, leak oil all over the track and take out the timing lights, who wins then................this is all so unfair. First or worse, if the other guy goes red and I then sit and take a 2 second light, will you say that is unfair since I didn't try to cut a light? Give it a rest.....

Mark Yacavone 05-05-2011 06:22 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 256877)
I'm not sure if I'm reading this right but it appears you are stating in a heads up race with double red light then the worst offender looses, not the first. Is that what your saying? And what track is that system in place because that's not the rule I know. It's FIRST red light loses, not worst red light loses.
It seems to me that ,in a heads up race, the first to redlight is also the worst.

(I thought you were speaking that weird dialect too, for a minute there,..buddy)

Ed Wright 05-05-2011 06:33 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 256890)
It seems to me that ,in a heads up race, the first to redlight is also the worst.

(I thought you were speaking that weird dialect too, for a minute there,..buddy)
Can't be any other way in a heads up. First has to also be the worst. Hard to believe it was even brought up.

jimi 05-05-2011 06:55 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Yacavone (Post 256832)
Rich, I guess so . I see and hear it everyday, everywhere.
Apparently, in that language, losing is pronounced loosing, lose is spelled loose , whining is whinning ,and too is shortened to "to".
Not sure what that dialect is....
up state NY Italian i think ed has it down fairly well toooo

bill dedman 05-05-2011 10:44 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Biebel (Post 256842)
Mark.....It's like the UN where I live anymore. I feel like a foreigner....I speak perfect English.....and can spell reasonably well....



Bill Dedman you have basically taken up the cause that was once championed by Steve Taylor......I used to think like a lot of guys and that was leave well enough alone on this issue.....but I agree it should be changed to WORST redlight, not first.....In all the years I've raced I can't really recall a race where we both redlit.....and I was the faster car in many races and benefitted from opponents redlights. It usually distracted me and I was late, not red.......Fair is fair and it makes sense. I don't race a Stocker anymore so my opinon doesn't count though...same as yours...LOL
Rich, thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

Steve Taylor was a friend who championed this cause for awhile, but he had another system I never could get into that was based on comparing "packages" to determine a winner.

The worse (or, double) red light system was a product of a guy in Fremont CA (and not Steve Taylor, I believe) whose name is Bob Mikulic. He told me about it back in the '90s, when I still lived in the San Francisco Bay area. I couldn't grasp the value of it immediately and frankly, didn't pay much attention to it UNTIL I had had time for it to soak in.

Eventually, I began to understand (I am a slow learner) and finally, one day it was clear as a bell.

I dunno how long that took, but it was a while, as I'd been used to the first red light deal for many, many years... that was my "norm."

Bob Mickuic was a bracket racer who raced supercharged Studebakers for years.

Anyway, he's still around, and is mildly interested in the worse red light rule, but has little hope that he'll ever live to see it in place. I feel pretty much the same way.

bill dedman 05-06-2011 01:22 AM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SStockDart (Post 256888)
If both racers red light, why not disqualify both of them. If both drivers red light, and both hit the wall, the one with the worst damage loses. If both red light and one hits the wall and one crosses the center line, the one who doesn't cross the finish line wins. If you have a bye run and red light, hit the wall, and cross the center line........who wins then.... If you have a bye run and hit the wall, cross the centerline, leak oil all over the track and take out the timing lights, who wins then................this is all so unfair. First or worse, if the other guy goes red and I then sit and take a 2 second light, will you say that is unfair since I didn't try to cut a light? Give it a rest.....
"If both racers red light, why not disqualify both of them."

If you did that, in the interest of consistency, you would then, have to disqualify both cars in a double break-out.

Does that appeal to you?

Jeff Lee 05-06-2011 01:29 AM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 256920)
Rich, thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

Steve Taylor was a friend who championed this cause for awhile, but he had another system I never could get into that was based on comparing "packages" to determine a winner.

The worse (or, double) red light system was a product of a guy in Fremont CA (and not Steve Taylor, I believe) whose name is Bob Mikulic. He told me about it back in the '90s, when I still lived in the San Francisco Bay area. I couldn't grasp the value of it immediately and frankly, didn't pay much attention to it UNTIL I had had time for it to soak in.

Eventually, I began to understand (I am a slow learner) and finally, one day it was cclear as a bell.

I dunno how long that took, but it was a while, as I'd been used to the first red light deal for many, many years... that was my "norm."

Bob Mickuic was a bracket racer who raced supercharged Studebakers for years.

Anyway, he's still around, and is mildly interested in the worse red light rule, but has little hope that he'll ever live to see it in place. I feel pretty much the same way.
So all of this has it's roots to the SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA? :rolleyes:
Are you kidding me? Now, finally this makes sense!!!
Where EVERYTHING has to be fair; they don't believe in scoring children's game's, everybody that tries get's an A....
Yes, seriously, this all makes sense now!

Ed Fernandez 05-06-2011 01:40 AM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
1 Attachment(s)
From now on this is the only red light I'm giving any thought to:

Bobby Zlatkin 05-06-2011 09:12 AM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Originally posted by Jeff Lee;
........The distraction of an opponents red light sometimes has the opposite affect on my as I seem to side step the clutch at that point. Then again, a red light was maybe in my cards mo matter what the other lane did; we'll never know.

Originally posted by Rich Bibel;
.....In all the years I've raced I can't really recall a race where we both redlit.....and I was the faster car in many races and benefitted from opponents redlights. It usually distracted me and I was late, not red.......Fair is fair and it makes sense.

In the intertest of "fair is fair", and to make 'first or worst' work, the opposite side of the tree must be blocked from each competitor.

bill dedman 05-06-2011 09:58 AM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 256927)
So all of this has it's roots to the SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA? :rolleyes:
Are you kidding me? Now, finally this makes sense!!!
Where EVERYTHING has to be fair; they don't believe in scoring children's game's, everybody that tries get's an A....
Yes, seriously, this all makes sense now!
You are too funny!!! LOL!

Bimbo Jones 05-06-2011 10:01 AM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lee (Post 256877)
I'm not sure if I'm reading this right but it appears you are stating in a heads up race with double red light then the worst offender looses, not the first. Is that what your saying? And what track is that system in place because that's not the rule I know. It's FIRST red light loses, not worst red light loses.
Yeah, My statement didn't read well did it Jeff? But in a heads up race the first would be the worst. Anyway this issue will never go anywhere unless NHRA sees a way that they can squeeze extra revenue out of the sportsman racers. I really don't have much of an issue with the way it is now for Foot brakers(stock) and No Box(SuperStock)racers. But just in formats where cross talk is used. so I guess I really need to take my soap box to a bracket racing forum. But I sure enjoy to keeping up with whats going on in SS and Stk.

Ed Fernandez 05-06-2011 01:38 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimbo Jones (Post 256953)
Yeah, My statement didn't read well did it Jeff? But in a heads up race the first would be the worst. Anyway this issue will never go anywhere unless NHRA sees a way that they can squeeze extra revenue out of the sportsman racers. I really don't have much of an issue with the way it is now for Foot brakers(stock) and No Box(SuperStock)racers. But just in formats where cross talk is used. so I guess I really need to take my soap box to a bracket racing forum. But I sure enjoy to keeping up with whats going on in SS and Stk.
Bimbo,you think you can take old Bill over there to the bracket race section ?

Rich Biebel 05-06-2011 02:21 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Stock is bracket racing Ed......has been for years......Sure there is always the possibility of heads up runs and there is qualifying but overall it's bracket racing. The people who have won the most in the last 10 years were/are great bracket racers first....

If it isn't than leave your shoe polish home and race off National Records....with some sort of different break out rules like we did in my JR.Stock days.....

And if you run under the record to win a National event it becomes a new record.........


Redlight rules would be the least of your worries....LOL

bill dedman 05-06-2011 04:39 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Biebel (Post 256995)
Stock is bracket racing Ed......has been for years......Sure there is always the possibility of heads up runs and there is qualifying but overall it's bracket racing. The people who have won the most in the last 10 years were/are great bracket racers first....

If it isn't than leave your shoe polish home and race off National Records....with some sort of different break out rules like we did in my JR.Stock days.....

And if you run under the record to win a National event it becomes a new record.........


Redlight rules would be the least of your worries....LOL
But the pertinent part of that esxchange is this: Handicapped racing in Class racing treats the competitors IDENTICALLY with Bracket racing... IDENTICALLY.

So, the unfair practices that go on under the auspices (look it up, Ed F.) of the rules "enjoyed" by the Stock/Super-Stock racers are also visited upon the Bracket racers.

No difference that I am aware of.

If EITHER of you EDs" can show me a difference, I'd appreciate it.

I don't think there IS any... which simply means that I (as a Bracket Racer) suffer the same unnecessary unequal red light jeopardy that Class racers face when they run a car with a quicker dial-in.

THAT is why all the pissin' and moanin' I do on this forum makes sense: the Brackets likely won't change their M.O. until NHRA does.... which could be never (and, probably will.)

Ed Carpenter 05-06-2011 04:46 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
This horse has been dead so long it has turned to dust!!!!!!! LOL

jimi 05-06-2011 04:47 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
hey bill do you smoke cigarettes?

Ed Fernandez 05-06-2011 05:09 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimi (Post 257020)
hey bill do you smoke cigarettes?
Without a doubt.

Jeff Lee 05-06-2011 06:03 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
I had a discussion with NHRA today about some other stuff and at the end I asked "have you seen the onlone debate on ClassRacer about red lights?" He had...I asked if NHRA would EVER consider such a change and the answer was emphatically..."NO! First person to red light is OUT OF THE GAME (unless the opponent crosses the centerline, etc.)"
There...I'm done!

John Kelley 05-06-2011 06:26 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Oh well....

John Kelley 05-06-2011 06:31 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Oh well....

bill dedman 05-06-2011 08:41 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimi (Post 257020)
hey bill do you smoke cigarettes?
Never had one in my mouth...

bill dedman 05-06-2011 08:46 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
[QUOTE=bill dedman;257018]So, the unfair practices that go on under the auspices (look it up, Ed F.) of the rules "enjoyed" by the Stock/Super-Stock racers are also visited upon the Bracket racers.

No difference that I am aware of.

If EITHER of you EDs" can show me a difference, I'd appreciate it.

IQUOTE]

Well, have either of you genuises come up with a difference, or is your silence a tacit (look it up, Ed F.) "NO."?

I'm waiting...

Ed Fernandez 05-06-2011 09:53 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
[QUOTE=bill dedman;257054]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 257018)
So, the unfair practices that go on under the auspices (look it up, Ed F.) of the rules "enjoyed" by the Stock/Super-Stock racers are also visited upon the Bracket racers.

No difference that I am aware of.

If EITHER of you EDs" can show me a difference, I'd appreciate it.

IQUOTE]

Well, have either of you genuises come up with a difference, or is your silence a tacit (look it up, Ed F.) "NO."?

I'm waiting...
What is your main diet,dictionaries?

Pvt Parts 05-06-2011 09:59 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
[QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;257069]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 257054)

What is your main diet,dictionaries?


NO it's the whiner's and crybaby's guide to gaining sympathy.

Pvt Parts 05-06-2011 10:01 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
This thread is hilarious, it’s like watching two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. Totally irrelevant….

Ed Wright 05-06-2011 10:31 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvt parts (Post 257074)
this thread is hilarious, it’s like watching two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. Totally irrelevant….
lmao!!

Nobody read Jeff's post about talking to NHRA? Don't believe him? Why?

bill dedman 05-06-2011 10:38 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
[QUOTE=Ed Fernandez;257069]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 257054)

What is your main diet,dictionaries?
You failed to answer the question... again.

Why?

bill dedman 05-06-2011 10:41 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvt Parts (Post 257074)
This thread is hilarious, it’s like watching two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on. Totally irrelevant….
Scott, explain to me what is irrelevant about discussing the fix for an unfair rule that has been on the books for 47 years.

Can you do that?

Or, do you know?

Ed Wright 05-06-2011 10:43 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
My answer is I don't care if they change it or not. And I think you are wasting your time. I would think Jeff's answer from an NHRA official should finally put a fork in this farce. Don't you get it? Ain't gonna happen. Get over it.

bill dedman 05-06-2011 10:45 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 257083)
lmao!!

Nobody read Jeff's post about talking to NHRA? Don't believe him? Why?
Will you still be laughing when a faster car red lights against you (your having red lit first) if his red light is worse that your, but he wins, anyway?

He shouldn't.

If you don't agree, you're either fatalistic or a masochist... or just too dumb to realize you just got screwed by an unfair rule.


Unfair and unnecessary.

I KNOW you're smarter than that...

Pvt Parts 05-06-2011 10:57 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 257083)
lmao!!

Nobody read Jeff's post about talking to NHRA? Don't believe him? Why?

Yes, I believe him. And there are a number of reasons why it will not change and I can't believe no one here has addressed the most obvious one.

Yes, the current rule gives the faster car the advantage. Most people note the cars in SS or S in classes A,B,C and D as an example. Now ask yourself, what manufacturers have cars in those classes and what kind of working relationship do they have with NHRA???

Like it or not NHRA is in the business of taking in money..... as a non-profit as they claim (which is another issue) or as a money making enterprise. And those manufacturers are major contributors. NHRA is also in the business of promoting fast, high performance cars like the ones in the aforementioned classes.

Those promotions help NHRA and they help the manufacturers. End of story. The rule helps the people who give the most. It always has and it probably always will. It's simple business economics.

There are other legal issues as well but that's another long winded post. And I've already noted the most obvious reason why it's the way it is.

Ed Wright 05-06-2011 10:59 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
If I red light, shame on me. I lost. I don't care what the other guy does. Maybe you could get Obama to look into it. Life's not fair. Some of us are better looking (not me) some of us are smarter (not me) and try harder so we are more successful and make more money to build faster cars. I don't have a fast car so I most always leave first. I still don't care. I'd I go red I'm upset enough with myself I don't care what happens to the other guy.
If were you I would call Obama.

Pvt Parts 05-06-2011 11:08 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill dedman (Post 257087)
Scott, explain to me what is irrelevant about discussing the fix for an unfair rule that has been on the books for 47 years.

Can you do that?

Or, do you know?

Absolutely I know. I am a realist. I see the world for what it is and I adjust my actions accordingly. Look at my track record. I won my first Super Stock race in a SS/B car. I won Comp at Topeka and the Winston World Finals in B/Altered, where I spotted a C/ED. I went from number 32 qualifier at Gainsville to runner up on red lights. That is the way it is. The rule is the same for everyone, including you. You have the same opportunity to change classes and improve your chances of winning as I did but you refuse to accept that as an option.

I learned long ago that you and you alone are responsible for your successes and you and you alone are responsible for your failures.

What are you going to do about your future???? The choice is yours.

Pvt Parts 05-06-2011 11:16 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Wright (Post 257095)
If I red light, shame on me. I lost. I don't care what the other guy does. Maybe you could get Obama to look into it. Life's not fair. Some of us are better looking (not me) some of us are smarter (not me) and try harder so we are more successful and make more money to build faster cars. I don't have a fast car so I most always leave first. I still don't care. I'd I go red I'm upset enough with myself I don't care what happens to the other guy.
If were you I would call Obama.


David Nickens told me a long time ago. The last thing you want to do is go to the starting line and beat yourself. At least make your opponent earn the win.

Andys dad 05-06-2011 11:23 PM
Re: worst red light debate, again!
 
I certainly did not read all of these posts so I am not sure if this was suggested

You both redlight - you both lose - simple and fair

Why give an advatage to either guy when they both f...ed up

Solomon ordered, "Cut the baby in half! That way each of you can have part of him."

That sould keep this going for another few pages

Apply to call classes all categories - Pros, alcohol, index, and all handicapped racing

LMAO

:-) peace


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